Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I’m your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I’m an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I’m going to give you your weekly horoscope and no bullshit, mystical advice for living your very best life.

Darlings, this week I’ve got a treat for you. Please enjoy this slightly edited version of a conversation that I had with the illustrious Erica Bridgeman, who did a series called Living Healthy Despite Chronic Conditions, where she interviewed a bunch of different experts on various perspectives on living with chronic health issues. The following is our conversation. 

If you would like to listen to more of her interviews, which I totally recommend because they’re great, visit her website; it’s linked in show notes. Please enjoy this conversation where we unpack medical astrology, some of my medical intuitive work, and the topic of chronic health conditions.

Jessica: I was nineteen years old, and I promised myself that I was going to study astrology through my twenties, and at thirty, I was going to come to mastery of medical astrology. That was my goal, and I did that. And the question of why medical astrology for me is because I had a lot of—I was uncomfortable in my body every day. I had a lot of health issues. And nothing that ever—I mean, I got pneumonia here, and I have this problem or that problem there, but nothing life threatening, but I found it very difficult to be in the body. I was always kind of struggling with some little thing. 

And so, I was really motivated to understand why there are mental health or physical health presentations—what are the spiritual roots of it. I don’t personally like to get too caught up the narrative, the story of it, but more to understand is there a function? Is there like a deeper function of my maladies? And if there are, can I focus on healing those deeper issues, and will it kind of have a reverberation through my body? So it’s kind of like if you keep on trimming the tree, the leaves grow back stronger, but if you attend to its roots, then it might actually grow differently is the idea that I had. 

And it was only more than ten years into my use of astrology that I was informed that not all astrologers were doing medical astrology. I just thought that that was something all astrologers did. And so, as I learned that that was not something that all astrologers did, I was invited to lecture on the topic a fair amount. And then where we met was the first workshop I taught on the topic, and it was a really great experience for me to be able to share that—that information. 

Erica Bridgeman: Well, it was so fascinating to hear it and to know that astrology can and does have something to say about health and conditions within the human body, specifically. 

Jessica: Yeah.

Erica Bridgeman: But I wanted to step back. Can we talk a little bit about—for people who are not as familiar with what astrology is—talk about what is astrology and what insights it brings to people in general. I know; it’s a huge, huge—

Jessica: —It’s a huge question. So astrology is so vast, but let me reframe it this way. And I’ll say the way that I use astrology is I look at where the planets are and the aspects—the kind of basic geometrical relationship between the planets in our solar system, and by understanding the interpretations, the applied meaning of that, we can understand as astrologers, where you come from. And I don’t mean like the city and state you come from but the conditions from which you come. The conditions that existed in both your matrilineage and your patrilineage, but if you were not raised by your biological parents, also you can see the conditions that existed before your birth of the people who raised you. 

We can see everything from what pens you prefer to use, to the way the body digests food, to the timbre of one’s voice, to your intimacy issues, and on and on it goes. 

And so, for me, I am really motivated by helping people when you’re alone with yourself in those kind of critical, really true moments. I’m really interested in those moments. I’m interested in when you’re really confronted by yourself, are you at peace? Are you making choices that are supportive to your system? Do you feel trapped? Those kinds of things. And I want to work with people from those places—that’s really what I’m interested in. 

And that’s not specifically all that astrology is. There are so many different astrologers who do different kinds of work. That’s how I work. I’m very interested in mental and body health. I’m interested in the kind of relationship between the two. And my belief and understanding is that we are not inside of our bodies. When we talk about like how I feel, we often look inside the body, and we think where is my central self? Where is my Soul or my real—you know when you’re talking to yourself and you’re kind of having a conversation with yourself, who is that central self? 

And I think that the convention in the Western World at this time is that that central self is inside of our bodies and that our bodies are simply an articulation of the Soul or the central self. And when we have physical or even mental health—because I really, I see mental health and body health as just health, right—and when we have maladies or problems or gifts or flow, it is a reflection of the Soul and what the Soul is working on. 

And when I say this, I want to be really clear, I don’t mean oh, it’s your fault if you’re sick, or oh, it’s you’re broken, and that’s why it’s happening. Not at all. From my spiritual perspective, the Soul is not so concerned with the articulations of our condition at this time. It’s more concerned with what we choose to do with it—whether or not we are able to find a way to love ourselves through it and support ourselves through it. 

And so, as an astrologer, I am able to look at a map of or a hard drive of what the Soul is here to achieve and how the personality and the body and the conditions have tools and hindrances to that larger goal. And my interest as a medical astrologer, really, other than, of course, helping people, which is I have people come in all the time, and they have these ailments, and I can’t identify what they are; they don’t get a diagnoses, and I think especially for people who are living with autoimmune disfunction, this is a very real problem—certainly, people who have mental health issues, it can be a very real problem is it’s hard to get validation from the Western medical system of our symptoms. I think that’s even more true for women, unfortunately, and people of color. 

And so, getting validation of the felt experience, I think, is a really important thing. And that’s something that I can do as a medical astrologer without the client actually giving me a lot of data, which I think is really validating. And I think in the healing process, it’s a really important part is being seen—especially when you have this experience over and over where physicians don’t see you. 

A lot of people with chronic conditions hear is, “Oh, you look healthy. Oh, you look okay,” and understand that there is a lot of suffering and struggle happening under the surface. And so, that’s one thing that I’m able to do as a medical astrologer, and I think is very valuable. 

Another thing is look at appropriate treatments or appropriate approaches for the individual’s system or for the time in their lives that they are. Because, of course, as—and maybe this isn’t an of course, but astrology, we work with cycles, and we work with cycles of development. And so, as an astrologer, I’m able to look at well, what season is this person in? What is the cycle calling for? Because sometimes it is appropriate to try to walk it off or push through it, and other times that’s a really destructive approach. And at other times we’re meant to really sleep it off, right. And you can go crazy trying to figure out which is which because they all sound reasonable, and everybody’s got an opinion, of course. 

And so, my work as a medical astrologer is to, first of all, bear witness. It’s to bear witness and to really see the person I’m working with. And then to help identify what they are and aren’t doing to support themselves and what they can be better focused on to cope with what they’re dealing with, whether that’s a mental health approach, dietary approach, this doctor, that doctor, that kind of thing. 

So there’s a lot that we can do in that way. And it is worth me disclosing that I am a medical astrologer, and also, I am a medical intuitive. So I have the ability to kind of look inside the body from an intuitive place. And so, I do use those two things in conjunction a fair amount. 

Erica Bridgeman: That’s amazing. 

Jessica: I am looking at everything as medical. I don’t see anything that is not medical because every issue and everything within our lives can present through the body. Because really, when you think about it, the body is the only thing that is with us from conception to death. There’s this expression that your issues are in your tissues, and it’s true. In your tissues are holding from all of your experiences, even not the experiences that you can technically remember. Your body remembers. 

And so, from my perspective as a medical astrologer, when I’m looking at a chart, I’m looking at the many articulations that are possible. So as an example of that, I actually had a woman come in yesterday. She is somebody who had a lot of Leo in her chart, which a lot of people would think oh, a Leo is strong, and it’s virile, and you’d have great health. And there are all these things in her chart that would indicate great health. But she had a number of markers that I associate with autoimmune disfunction and things that are difficult to diagnose. 

So sometimes the body throws out smoke and mirrors, and you’ll have a symptom for a period of time, and then you finally get into the doctor, and the symptom isn’t presenting. And this is not uncommon for people with autoimmune issues. And she, in fact, has Lupus. And so, we were able to talk about not only the current articulations in her body, in her felt experience of the Lupus, we were also able to talk about her behaviors, her choices, and how they were and weren’t working in, you know, separately. And we were also able to talk about the spiritual lessons of this condition, of the situation. And to be able to talk about it on all of these levels, I feel, that can be really constructive and helpful.

Erica Bridgeman: When you’re looking at a chart, can you give some examples of signatures or markers that would indicate that this is a person who’s dealing with something, even though, on the surface, it looks like everything is wonderful.

Jessica: Oh, man. Well, there’s so many. There’s so many. But—oh, man. Well, you know, when Neptune is in difficult aspect, which is when it’s conjunct, when it’s square, or when it’s opposite a planet in the birth chart, generally speaking, and not always, there is an articulation of autoimmune distress. So the body becomes difficult to read. It’s easy for the person who has this in their chart to ignore their body, to forget to breathe, to forget to drink water. And there can often be a tendency for the body to kind of feel like it’s in this state of being a sieve instead of a bucket; it loses nutrients, and it kind of is very sensitive to drugs. 

Often when people have hard aspects from Neptune to personal planets especially, they’ll have every negative reaction to pharmaceuticals or recreational drugs. And I’m speaking in very broad strokes, of course, because each chart is a snowflake as each person is an individual. But generally speaking, when we have hard aspects from Neptune, we’re dealing with, essentially, parasitic energies and sometimes actual parasites. 

The kind of spiritual lesson is to learn how to have healthy boundaries. Part of what having healthy boundaries is is being able to identify yourself, to validate your own experience, to identify what does and doesn’t feel good—which these things sound maybe simple, but they’re really not. They’re not. And it’s not just for people who have health conditions. This is something that most of us struggle with.

Erica Bridgeman: Yes.

Jessica: Where do I begin and end? Am I making this up? Do I really have a headache, or am I just thinking about it, or do I just need to drink more water? We kind of invalidate our own experience a great deal. And so, we must first identify the self, and then when that boundary is trespassed, not just say the word stop, but actually remove ourselves from a situation or take action to promote our best interests or selfcare. 

And unfortunately, anyone who has chronic conditions or has ever really been sick can say, if you’re dealing with something that is not like your leg is hanging off of your body, or your nose has fallen off of your face, a doctor will often have an easy time questioning are you sure you’re feeling the…? And it’s very hard when you’re not sure. 

And so, often times, I find that when people have these hard Neptune aspects is that one of the lessons is being able to identify which practitioner is healthy for me. Who’s listening to me? Who is actually responding to what I am telling them, and when I walk away do I feel better or worse? Because when people have hard aspects from Neptune, they get instantly exhausted when they’re in situations or around people that are not authentic to them, that are not good for them. They get drained. 

And so, the work of this is hard because how do you say, “You know what? This doctor is a specialist, and everyone talks about this specialist, but they’re not working for me.” Well, you have to really trust yourself, and you have to really be putting your own self first. Which is healthy boundaries and also really hard. And it’s even harder when you’re struggling, right.

Erica Bridgeman: Absolutely. So what I’m hearing as far as, if I was to have a consult with you, is to really bring awareness to my situation. As you were saying, it’s not about fixing whatever’s broken or what’s not working right. It’s to bring that awareness that, first of all, there’s validation of what is happening, of what is going on and to bring consciousness to what I’m dealing with—even an awareness that I myself would not have because it might be unconscious. It’s maybe in a different realm or language than I’m used to in terms of getting at what’s going on.

Jessica: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I think when we are suffering, when we are in pain—you know, Western society really likes to turn away from people in pain. Again, a broken leg is easier for us as a society to deal with than an autoimmune system that makes you exhausted, than depression, right. 

And there’s a way that we really struggle with understanding that it’s okay—in fact, it’s human to be in a hard spot. I think a lot of people turn away from things that are scary, and people turn away from things that they don’t want to have happen to them. So people don’t think, “Oh, I’m the kind of friend who would walk away when my friend has chronic fatigue or something,” but it’s a whole other thing to stick around month after month. It is. 

And I definitely have seen over and over and over again the people that I work with and the people that I know that have chronic conditions, again, mental or body health conditions, often deal with a lot of isolation. It’s hard to ask for help under the best of circumstances, and it's even harder when it’s weeks, months, years on end. 

And so, part of the work is getting out of your own head. Part of the work of surviving chronic conditions is getting out of your own head. Because when left alone with maladies, it’s easy to go into a really dark place and lose perspective—especially when you do have contact with your friends and they offer platitudes, “You’re going to be okay. You’re going to get through. You look great.” It’s depressing. It’s so depressing. And worse than that, it’s [indiscernible 00:16:50] of not being truly seen, right. 

Erica Bridgeman: Yeah.

Jessica: And nobody thrives under those conditions. And so, there’s so many layers to this, and I think that being able to have people—and not just me as an astrologer or not just medical astrologers, but having people that you can talk to and that can stay emotionally present for, “Yes, you’re suffering. Yes, it sucks. It is awful, and I can’t fix that today.”

Erica Bridgeman: Hmm.

Jessica: “There is no fix for you today, and that sucks, and I have compassion for that, and I don’t understand it. And I can put myself in your position, and I can have compassion, but what you’re going through is yours. And I’m sorry for that.” I feel like that’s really powerful, and what most people strive to do is fix because they can’t tolerate watching someone else in pain. But that actually doesn’t help because if somebody is in a chronic condition, there is not a fix. Now, there might be better days, and there might be helpful strategies, but part of the work of it is in acceptance. 

Acceptance is not complacency, but it’s awareness. And it’s not wise to pretend that something hasn’t been bothering you for five years. And that’s what a lot of us have to do to cope, to survive. But it’s not an ideal tool. It’s often a necessary tool. But it’s not a great tool because the body is an insistent bugger, right. The body demands attention, and the felt experience of pain—physical or emotional pain, is compelling. It’s evidence. It’s hard to convince oneself that it’s not there. And so, if we have to rally in order to be around our friends, after enough time it becomes more work to be around people.

Erica Bridgeman: Right. Mmm Hmm.

Jessica: I really feel like there needs to be space for acknowledging that suffering is awful. And that doesn’t mean you’re investing in suffering to admit that and to honor that and to feel bad when things feel bad. And at the same time, you don’t want to get stuck there. So being emotionally present with yourself to know, again, when the season is for being like, “Yeah, life sucks, and I don’t want to get out of bed, and I don’t want to do the healthy things today.” Sometimes that’s really okay. Sometimes it’s necessary, and then sometimes it’s necessary to say, “I am going to do the things I know support me, and I’m going to ask for help because today I can see that I need it.” And it’s not about being perfect. There’s no perfect in an imperfect situation like pain, but it’s about strategies.

Erica Bridgeman: Yes.

Jessica: I have this belief or this theory about something I call the SON, which is the Stage of No. And I believe in the importance and value of the Stage of No. And we’ve all been there, where everything healthy, everything right, you’re like, “Man, I don’t want to. Mmm, I don’t feel like it. I know I should drink more water, but I don’t what to get off the couch,” or “I know I should x, y, x, but I don’t want to. I can’t.” Nothing sounds right. Nothing sounds good. And I think that there is a time and a place for the Stage of No, and it’s important that we give ourselves permission sometimes to be there. 

And that place can be whiny, and it can be needy, and it can be really sad. And I think it’s really okay to be there, as long as one doesn’t get stuck there.

Erica Bridgeman: I can see how a majority of dealing with chronic pain is just an emotional component, so having support around that is critical for people to move through the process towards that sense of well-being, whether it’s well-being with pain or well-being without pain. 

Jessica: Absolutely.

Erica Bridgeman: It’s still a validation that I am a human being. This body I’m living in is my constant companion, and we need to work together. And sometimes I’m going to be on—sometimes I’m going to be off. I’m going to go through that Stage of No, and I’m going to do what I need to do. 

So when you are working with someone and allowing them to have this process, what have you given me or what have I been made aware of through our interaction, so that when I’m walking out of your office, I have something that I can work with—I’m in a new place of awareness?

Jessica: That’s a great question. And sometimes the truth is the most that I or anyone can offer is validation and presence and witness. Sometimes that’s the most. And, you know, I feel that sucks because sometimes I’m not able to give actual go do this, go do that, or this is the insight that will heal it all. 

And this is the frustration of chronic conditions is that anyone who’s dealing with them for years on end knows that there are months at a time where it’s kind of a standstill. And so, that’s one answer because I don’t want to create an idealistic picture here. 

Another answer is what I strive to do always is give practical self-care tools that are accessible based on ability and access, and that’s a really important thing and also, based on personality. 

I love working with jaded pragmatists and people who aren’t really into woo stuff. I’m not the most woo woo—woo woo person, and so that works for me. And so, somebody who’s super woo, I will give them witchy homework. And somebody who’s not woo at all, I will really frame things in psychological terms that they can work with. 

Sometimes the work is practicing finding the felt experience and giving permission—sometimes it’s something that subtle and small. And sometimes we will talk. And of course, I am not a doctor, and I always remind people I am not a doctor, and I’m not qualified to give medical advice. And also, I can look and see, okay, so it looks like you’re deeply acidic, and so, you can try Alfalfa, and we can talk about movement-based therapies, dietary changes or adjustments. 

We’ll often talk to people about practitioners because often people who are dealing with chronic health issues have this wide list of who do I trust? They have a list of doctors and practitioners, and this therapist I should say—says I should take this, and that physician says don’t ever take that. And what do you do? And so, I will often help people identify who a better suited practitioner is for them and what a best strategy is for selfcare. Because when you’re dealing with chronic issues, it is very rarely a single action that’s going to do it. 

Erica Bridgeman: Yes. Yes.

Jessica: You throw a cast on a broken limb, you wait time. You take off the cast, and you stretch—you do some things, but it’s pretty much done. But that’s not the case with internal—with internal issues like this. And so, it’s layers over the passage of time. 

And so, another thing that I’m often working with people around, who are dealing with mental and body health issues that are chronic, is how can you orient yourself around the truth of your own experience? How can you accept it? And if you can’t accept it, if you’re in the SON about it, if you’re in the Stage of No about it, how can you accept that? Because in accepting and giving yourself permission to say, “I am going to be a giant chode right now, and I’m not going to do anything I’m supposed to do. I’m going to just eat bonbons and watch TV that makes me feel bad, and I’m just going to do nothing.” Sometimes you have to do that. And to beat yourself up over it is losing the point. 

I think that there’s all this pressure to be a perfect patient, to do everything right, to only eat the right foods, and do all these perfect things to take care of yourself. And I’m actually a proponent of when you’re going to do the cheat, when you’re going to do the thing that is not optimal, to endeavor to enjoy it, to go whole hog into it, so that you can really get it out of your system.

Erica Bridgeman: Yeah.

Jessica: If you’re going to do it, do it. But this whole myth of the perfect patient and this myth of we are all meant to be happy and healthy all the time, that’s not the human condition. It’s just not the human condition. And an acceptance of that can really be powerful. 

You know, the body, whether it’s presenting through depression or mental health issues or physical pain or discomfort, it’s trying to tell us something. Pain is an instructor. It’s not always clear what it’s trying to tell us or what the instruction is meant to be, but it is trying to teach us something. And so, if we can figure out what that lesson is meant to be, and we can work with that lesson, we can save a lot of time and energy. And it can, again, be very validating. And so, that’s something that I’m really motivated towards in my work.

Erica Bridgeman: Wonderful. And that’s what is needed, I think. I know for myself, just being able to understand what I’m going through and that validation, even when I’m rebelling, say I just don’t want to, and I have my fingers in my ears—I’m like, da, da, da, da. You know what I mean? I don’t hear you. I don’t want to—it’s just—it’s a really great opportunity to have that okay from someone.

On January 5th of 2021, Georgia has the opportunity to flip the US senate blue. And whether or not you’re in Georgia, you can get involved. Here are some organizations that you can donate to and volunteer with, and the links to them all will be show notes. 

One super star on the political scene is Stacey Abrams. I know you’ve heard of her, but let me just tell you about her organization Fair Fight, whose mission it is to advocate for free and fair elections by fighting voter suppression and promoting fair elections in Georgia, as well as around the country. You can donate and find out more about how to get involved over at fairfight.com. 

Now, there’s another organization I want to share with you, which is called The New Georgia Project. They seek to empower the new American majority to vote through advocacy and engagement. You can go to their website at thenewgeorgiaproject.org to donate and get involved. 

And, finally, you need to know about Black Voters Matter. Their goal is to increase power in marginalized, predominately Black communities. Effective voting allows a community to determine its own destiny. Get involved and donate at blackvotersmatterfund.org. Link to all three of these orgs will remain in show notes.

Do you ever lie awake at night obsessing about the moment when everything went wrong? Maybe you wish you could reach out to the brother you stopped talking to 40 years ago, or maybe you want to ask your high school sweetheart why did you dump me? On the podcast Heavyweight, Jonathan Goldstein helps guests journey back to the past to answer the questions that still haunt them in the hope of setting things right. That’s Heavyweight from Gimlet. Follow and listen for free on Spotify.

Erica Bridgeman: How are you presenting the language of astrology to this person?

Jessica: Yeah. In the first ten years of my practice, seven years of my practice, I used to explain the astrological roots to everything I was seeing to people, and they would walk out dizzy. And it was very interesting to them, but they couldn’t use the information at all. I am such a Capricorn. I’m such a pragmatist. 

I really just—I focus on the upshot. I really just focus on this is your felt experience, this looks like the spiritual connection or roots of why, these are the behaviors that you’re doing that are exasperating it, these are the behaviors you’re doing that are supporting it—let’s talk strategies. Let’s talk goals. That kind of thing. 

With the kind of conversation that I’m having with people, I’m really interested in where the body is. So one of the things I do as a medical intuitive is a scan. A lot of times something that’ll come up is I’ll be like, “Oh, you need to floss more,” or “Hmm, the way you’re stepping with your foot is funky, and this is how you should be thinking about your feet to support your structural health.” 

And when I see stuff like that, there’s generally not major health problems. These are very manageable health problems, even though they can kind of relate to serious health issues. The reason why I refer to them as manageable because there are, generally speaking, with let’s say your feet health or your gums, specific actions that you can take to be proactive, to physically help things, and it’s a little bit straightforward.  

When there are autoimmune issues or more chronic issues, the body will sometimes hide a little bit. Because the body is like, “Oh, I have pain here and discomfort there, and then I have this weird ringing in my ear, and I can’t poop,” and then it’s like all these weird, random things that seem disconnected can often be present. And so, what will come up in the moment is often what they’re experiencing in the moment, and then we’ll have a larger conversation about what their felt experience is and how that actually has played out for them. 

And I want to be clear, I keep on referring to the felt experience, and I do that because we read things or we’re told things about what we’re experiencing, and we have a narrative in our minds about what our health issue is. “Oh, I’m depressed. I’ve had depression. I’ve been on meds off and on since I was 14.” And I will sometimes look at a person’s chart and say, “Oh no, you don’t have depression. You have anxiety.” And this becomes something very interesting because if the narrative and the identity is fixated around a diagnosis that we got once upon a time, then the kind of idea that we have of ourselves gets really pointed in that direction, and that’s not always what we’re experiencing. 

And so, this is something that as an astrologer, again, I can’t diagnose; I am not a doctor. I would never encourage a person to replace the information I give them with the kind of treatment and support of physicians of whatever kind, but I’m often looking at well, the reason why your anti-depressant isn’t working is because you don’t have depression; you have a depressive form of anxiety, but it’s anxiety. It’s not depression. 

And I think that something that happens for us is we’re told, “Oh, okay. Your problem is you’re a pink frog,” and we’re like, “Oh, but I don’t feel like a pink frog, and when every time I try to medicate myself for being a pink frog, it’s not working. Oh, I’m a terrible pink frog.” Instead of being able to really say, “Well, that maybe isn’t the right diagnosis because these treatments aren’t working.”

Erica Bridgeman: Right.

Jessica: And where is the line? Where is the line? And I think it’s different for all of us, and it’s different for different situations, and—but again, I refer back to this idea of the felt experience being really important to validate and to track. 

Erica Bridgeman: Have you had the experience of somebody saying, “Oh, I think it’s this. I suffer from this,” or may not even know what they’re suffering from, and you tell them something completely different? What is their response often times? How do they receive that information?

Jessica: Well, you know, it’s like I said, everybody’s a snowflake. Everything is—everybody is different. Sometimes I’m giving them left field news, and sometimes I’m validating what they already know. So it really does vary. 

I had this appointment with this woman, and she was having discomfort and kind of weird periods. And I was able to see that there was something really serious going on. And so, what I said to her—because she happened to have had a gynecological appointment scheduled for the next day, and I was like when you go in there, you got to insist that they do an X-ray style check—I forget what they’re called, right now—and they’re going to say no, and you have to insist. 

And she later told me that she never would have listened to me—it was our first-time appointment—if she hadn’t happened to have had the appointment so close. And sure enough, they did an ultrasound or whatever—some sort of test, and they found that there was a serious problem. And she had a surgery, and she was going to be infertile if they hadn’t caught it in time. She had a surgery, and because she was able to find it, she is fertile. But if it had waited a year, it wouldn’t have happened. And as the result, her sister went in to get the same test, and found she had the same problem. And none of this would have happened if we hadn’t had that conversation because she was not validating her own experience, and she was not assertive with doctors. 

I have had experiences where I’ve helped people identify cancer before doctors. For some reason, I’m very good with teeth, and so I often can see the bite, and I can see issues with the teeth. And I have actually had dentists call me and say, “How did you know what was going on in this person’s mouth?”

And then when it comes to autoimmune stuff and mental health stuff, this is really where things get more complicated and more nuanced, and there’s not a simple fix. There’s not a singular response. And so, a common thing that I’ll do is I’ll be able to identify this is where I think the roots are. 

Sometimes stomach stuff is related to the brain. Sometimes stomach stuff is parasites. Sometimes stomach stuff is stomach stuff. It can be so many places that what presents as stomach pain, where it comes from—so many different roots. Same thing with hormonal health or weird rashes that happen. I mean, it goes on and on and on. And so, what I will often do is talk about what it looks like is happening in the body as kind of more of a chronic this is your body type. I’ll look at what’s going on right now, and I’ll, again, look at strategies. 

Like I was mentioning, this one person I worked with yesterday, she had a diagnosis of Lupus many, many, many years ago. But she didn’t have a spiritual reconciliation with it— like why? Why? And so we talked about that, what her roots were and what issues she needed to work on. And also, she had a lot of behaviors that were not supporting her physical wellness, and so, we talked about what the behaviors would be for supporting her physical health. But that wasn’t news to her. 

Where the helpful part and the news was was talking about why she wasn’t doing them. So for her, her life was already made so small by her health, that every time she couldn’t have that glass of wine or eat that delicious piece of chocolate, it felt like more evidence of a denial, more evidence of how her life was hard and how things were difficult for her. And so, for her, doing things that actually were very unhealthy and that made her feel bad every day was an indulgence and felt like a gift. And so, whenever she tried to go on diets or adjust her eating and her behaviors to be more supportive to the Lupus, she ended up getting depressed. 

And so, we talked about mental and emotional health strategies around her emotions and her thinking and not shifting her behavior. As if the shift first happens with how she feels and how she thinks, then the shift in behavior will become an organic next step. And so, we really talked about the Stage of No, and part of my homework for her was—and this is different for everybody, but part of my homework for her was when you eat a piece of chocolate, enjoy every damn bite. You revel in it. If you can’t enjoy it, put it down and come back to it later when you can enjoy it. If you’re going to drink that glass of wine, enjoy every stupid sip. If it’s going to be a stomachache later, that’s okay if you enjoy it. 

If you’re feeling guilty while you’re having it, then it’s not the tip. So to really enjoy what you’re choosing to do when you know it’s not in your technical best interest. You don’t have to be a model patient all the time. But if you’re going to do something that’s ultimately self-destructive, love it. Feel it. Go with it. Because then it becomes worth it.

Erica Bridgeman: Yes.

Jessica: And that is actually supportive, at the end of the day, to your emotional health, to a sense of, “Yeah, I cheated, and yeah, I have a terrible stomachache, but damn, it was worth it.” And that’s really powerful for chronic issues.

Erica Bridgeman: Absolutely. I mean, that validation of really the core of it being how you feel emotionally—not how you feel in the foot or the leg or the arm, but how you feel experientially with what is going on with the present moment, with your life, with just right now—dropping into that feeling sense. 

For people with chronic conditions, a very big key—I know I’ve said this in previous interviews; it’s a repetitive theme for me, and I think really underlies this whole podcast, as far as having a chronic illness but getting to the deeper root of the emotional component that is going on. And it sounds like whoever comes to you with whatever issue they have, they have an opportunity to really have that experience. 

Jessica: Yes. Absolutely. As you were saying that, what kind of also comes up for me is that within this, and I don’t know if this is conventional or not, but I do consider addiction a chronic health condition. And it doesn’t have to be. It isn’t certainly and for everyone. But for most people who are addicts, it doesn’t really go away, and it’s a chronic condition that people cope with. 

And, again, as you and I are talking about the kind of emotional and mental roots, these are also found with addicts and with addiction. And often one’s chronic health condition will give birth to or exacerbate an addiction to self-denial, to sugar, to whatever it is—sometimes to pharmaceuticals. And so, I do think that that’s a meaningful kind of—maybe it’s a whole other conversation on a whole other podcast, but it is a meaningful thing to address. Because I know many people who have chronic pain—chronic nerve pain or other kinds of pain, and the only treatment that they are given is these really aggressive pharmaceuticals, and it just creates a whole other layer of chronic condition, right, because now we’re talking about addiction. So it is—it’s all part of this really big beast of issues. 

But it’s a path. I think that the thing about life and coping with pain, just like coping with success and joy, we need strategies. We don’t need the goal. The goal is I want to be healthy. I don’t want to have pain. That can be a depressing goal when you have pain. Instead, having a strategy for having the best life you can within your current situation is really, I think, can be a lot more uplifting. Not to move away from goals completely, but again, this is about having self-acceptance for where you are and where you’re starting from, so that you don’t kind of wait until everything’s okay before you give yourself permission to be happy. 

Erica Bridgeman: When you brought up addictions, it is a chronic condition. And I appreciate you raising that because I think that is something that is definitely to be explored. 

Well, in our final minutes, I want to invite you to share three things that you would recommend for living healthy despite chronic conditions.

Jessica: Absolutely. I may even have four if that’s okay.

Erica Bridgeman: Oh, absolutely.

Jessica: So the first one is the SON. It’s the Stage of No. If you’re in the Stage of No, go whole hog and let yourself be there. And if you’re scared that you’re going to get stuck there, set a time limit. And it shouldn’t be hours. It should be days. It’s okay, depending on your situation, if it’s longer than days. It could be weeks. But really give yourself permission to not talk yourself out of really going into, “I’m sick of this. I’m over it. I don’t feel motivated to be better.” It’s okay to go there sometimes. So that’s one thing. 

The other thing is find reasons to laugh. Find reasons to smile. A trick that I like to use is YouTube—going and finding stupid comedy and finding something that tricks me into laughing or smiling. Because laughter is really medicine, and if you can commit to laughing for a minute or two a day as a minimum, this can be a really meaningful strategy, especially if you end up kind of house bound or stuck indoors a great deal. And it’s not checking out, and it’s not being escapist. Laughter is really, really valuable. 

There is also the buddy role, which is to make your body your buddy. It’s very easy to treat our bodies like our enemies and to feel like the body is the enemy when the body is full of pain. But change and healing are always easier to take place from a place of self-acceptance and from a collaborative viewpoint. Collaborate with your body. Listen to its needs. Honor its needs. And when you can’t do that, don’t be mean to your body about it. Be nice. Have compassion. Be a good buddy to your body. 

And then my final piece is to own your experience but not the pain. Don’t let the pain that you experience or the suffering that you experience become your identity and become you. Which is not to say to distance yourself from it—again, own your experience, but to understand that you at your center in your core don’t need to be that—that kind of invader of pain. So those are my kind of 3.4/3.5 or 4 pieces of advice.

Erica Bridgeman: Oh, thank you so, so very much for those because they are very simple but sometimes very challenging to remember. Because they don’t require you to go out and get anything, to spend any money, to acquire anything. They are just simple practices of awareness. 

Well, I just want to thank you so much for joining me today for this interview and for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, and your experience of working with people who have chronic conditions.

Jessica: Thank you so much; it’s been such a pleasure. And thanks—I really, really am so glad you’re doing this. So thanks for having me, but also, just thanks for doing this.