Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica: Imani, welcome to the podcast.

Imani: So excited to be here. Thank you.

Jessica: I'm so excited you are here. So tell me what you would like a reading about today.

Imani: Yeah. So my mother and I⁠—we've really never had the best relationship. And a year ago, my aunt passed away, and now my mother has to care for my grandmother and my aunt's old house. And watching my mom care for her mother has made me realize a lot of the pain she still needs to heal from. And so I'm trying to figure out how can I show up for my mother more fully and heal my own resentments towards my mother, but I'm also realizing I'm having resentments towards my grandmother as well.

Jessica: I am sorry for the loss of your aunt. And I'm going to share your birth information. You were born on April 10th, 1995, at 4:55 a.m. in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Imani: Yes.

Jessica: Okay. We're going to focus on your mom and your grandma, not your aunt? Is that what you wanted, or⁠—

Imani: I think what I'm realizing is I always looked at my aunt as the person I would go to for answers about my mother, and when she passed away, then I lost that. But I'm also realizing that a lot of the same things I think my mother has struggled with in terms of hoarding and mental health⁠—my aunt was also dealing with those things, too, but I didn't realize it until after she passed away.

Jessica: I see. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to have you say your full name. Include your government name, your chosen name, whatever has energy, basically.

Imani: My government name is [redacted], but my chosen name is [redacted].

Jessica: Wow. You decided at some point in your early youth, "I'm going to be different. I'm going to do it my way." And you just fucking did. You just did. And this is why I always ask for all the names, because then I can see all of the energy and I can right away kind of tap into your matrilineage. So let me just ask, was your dad ever in the picture? Is he somebody who's in your life?

Imani: Yeah. He's still around. He lives in our family home. They're still married, my mom and my dad.

Jessica: Oh. I'm actually really shocked by that.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Are they very separate but together?

Imani: Yeah. That's a great question⁠—well, because my mom actually lives in my aunt's house and has been there for a year. But I even feel like their marriage in some ways is a little bit more codependent, but they are kind of off in their own worlds. Yeah.

Jessica: It's interesting because when I look at your birth chart, it looks like your mother's experience of her marriage and coparenting was that she kind of had to do everything on her own. So she had this sense of, like, "It's all on me." I just assumed by looking at your chart that your dad wasn't there. Was he much of a coparent?

Imani: It's funny you say that. I think it's honestly a little bit more reversed, like my mom⁠—well, I think she would feel that way emotionally, but I think my mom actually would work late at night, and so it would be me and my dad. And so I was actually called Little [redacted] growing up because I was stuck to my dad's hip. And so I feel, also, a lot of the distance between me and my mom. It's just that I kind of grew up more bonding with my dad than I did, actually, with my mother.

My mother is so caring. She's the one that's packing things and making sure everything is okay, and my dad is so a dad in that way that it's like, "If it happens, it happens." But my mom⁠—yeah.

Jessica: It's like the story that we tell ourselves versus the story that the other person in the story tells themselves is often really, really different stories. And so here we begin to unpack things with your mom because your mom's story is about how much she sacrificed and how much she gave and how underappreciated and how undervalued she was and that you were hard to reach and that you were hard⁠—you were just a hard person for her. And all she did was try. All she did was try.

And you're an Aries with a Leo Moon. And so to call you precocious would be an understatement. And not only are you an Aries with a Leo Moon, but you have a Sun/Mercury conjunction in Aries and a Moon/Mars conjunction in Leo. You embodied something that your mother actually worked really hard to push down in herself because your Moon/Mars conjunction is intercepted. And I do not go out of my way to pick intercepted charts, I just need to say as a hot aside. I don't know why there's⁠—I guess there's a lot of intercepted charts out there. But your mom, was she aggressive ever? Was she like an angry person at all?

Imani: No. No.

Jessica: My guess, looking at your chart, is that she is on the inside, but she didn't think that it was okay to be⁠.

Imani: Yes.

Jessica: ⁠And that's how your Moon/Mars got intercepted. You are this person with so much energy. Even when you're trying to turn it down, it's trying to put the Sun in a box. Good luck. Light's going to come through the cracks. That's what's going to happen, and that's the kind of person you are. But as a little kid, it's always our personalities turned up. So you really were. And I would imagine that that was really intimidating for your mom.

So what would she do? Looking at your birth chart, she would seek to take care of you but, again, in a martyred way, like, "Oh, I'm just doing things for you because they need to be done." That's kind of like her love language, but also, it's the only way she knew how to navigate around energy because she's not used to having to deal with so much energy. Your dad doesn't have a ton of energy; am I seeing this correctly?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. And do you have siblings?

Imani: No.

Jessica: Okay. It's a lot of pressure on you.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: I gotta say you were a wanted child by your mother and your father. You've got Jupiter at the top of the chart, all the things I already named⁠—wanted, beloved, chosen. Never a question. Even in the most messy moments, never a question.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: But your mom thought it would be easier⁠—she thought you would be her mini-me; you'd be like that daughter that would be just like her. And I think she takes things personally very easily. And if you're seeing your grandma more clearly, you probably have a sense of why. It looks like her mom picked on her a lot, and her love language was critique. Are you seeing that?

Imani: My grandmother actually has dementia now.

Jessica: Oh. Okay.

Imani: And so she's kind of gone, and my grandmother has schizophrenia. I don't think it's been diagnosed, but it's always been that thing where it's like, "Oh, she sees things, but we don't really talk about it."

Jessica: Okay. And has that been going on since your mom was a kid?

Imani: I don't know. My mom⁠—and this is the interesting thing. My mom doesn't tell me anything. So I don't know anything, really, about my mom's life until my dad started telling me things. My grandmother didn't even raise my mother. And when my aunt passed away, my mom said something about, "Me and your aunt forgave our mother a long time ago." But I don't know what that even means.

Jessica: That's really intense. Okay. Looking at your birth chart, it looks like your mom felt very unsafe and like things were very hard on her. Also, you've got this Neptune and Uranus in your twelfth house. Uranus is intercepted in your twelfth house. If anyone was going to be unpredictable, it was not your mom. And that's the story she keeps with her⁠—she's the one who has to take care of things; she's the one that things fall on⁠—whether or not that's true.

Imani: Yeah. That is so my mom.

Jessica: Yeah. And of course, what did she do? She had a fucking firebomb baby that is you. And you're like, "Let me do it. I'll figure it out. I want to do it. No. I want to move faster. Why are we moving slow? Can we go?" And for her, if she really takes a step back, it's exactly what she would want for you. But when she's in dynamic with you, when you guys are together a lot, it's like the only way she knows how to connect is by tamping everything down.

You've got that Venus/Saturn conjunction in Pisces in your first house. She wants to just slow everything down and do that Saturn thing where it becomes like wood or metal. It doesn't move a lot. To you, that feels like suffocation.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: The way your chart is written and the ways in which you and your mother are so dramatically different, you're going to have to develop a friendship with her or not. But the dynamic that you have that is from your childhood was never sustainable. It never really worked, and it's not sustainable. And in this dynamic, you're leaving all the time. You're moving, moving, moving, and then she's like the suffering saint about it. Sorry. And neither of you are wrong. It does hurt her feelings. She does not understand it. And you cannot do anything but be yourself, and you're not doing anything wrong by individuating and growing up, because that's your job as an adult child or as a teenager.

Looking at your chart, I do think there is a path forward where the two of you can find things you're interested in about each other and things about the world that you find interesting and connect on those things. You would have to let her take care of you a little bit.

Imani: Mmm…

Jessica: That's clearly top of your list of things you like to do.

Imani: I feel like I also just said "Mmm" because, so much, I feel like now I have to care for her even though I'm not near her. But I feel like I have to care for her.

Jessica: So let's talk about that because, on the one hand, your family is in a crisis moment, and that's real. And then there's another part as well, which is, at a certain age, there used to be a joke on every sitcom with a family where the adult person is like, "When did I become my parent?" And it's like there's a laugh track to it, and everyone cries, like you're supposed to laugh. And there's a reason why this happens. There's a reason why we become our parents: because it's really hard to do the work to make sure that we don't just flip-flop on roles in family dynamic.

And the time at which we become our parents is the Saturn Return. And you are gearing up to your Saturn Return. It's not for a hot minute. Your Saturn is at 19 degrees of Pisces. We're not even at zero degrees of Pisces. You've got a chunk of time. It's not happening this year, but you're in the gear-up phase. And so this gear-up phase that you're in is when you will either start to really slip into being your own mother in the situation, the long-suffering martyr who helps you even though you don't really want to and you don't really know if it's working⁠—you don't really get your needs met, but you do it because it's the right thing, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Or you're going to find your own way, just like you always have. Now, I just made it sound really tidy. It's not tidy, so let's get messy with it for a minute. I'm going to have you say your birth name, your government name again, and then say your mom's name. We're beeping both of these out.

Imani: Okay. [redacted]

Jessica: That's your mom, eh, the second name?

Imani: Yeah. The second name is my mom.

Jessica: Yeah. What do you call her?

Imani: Mama.

Jessica: I mean, she really wants you to take care of her, like a lot. But that's partially⁠, just so you know⁠, because that's kind of her love language. And so, when you do it, she's really clear that you love her. It's obvious, whereas a lot of the ways you most emphatically and enthusiastically express love don't always feel exactly⁠—this is a problem in your relationship, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: But I think it's important to be able to differentiate between, "This is how she prefers to be cared for," and, "She's in crisis and you have to do this for her."

Imani: Got it.

Jessica: You know what I'm saying?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: So ground me into if there's a question or a crux here that I could get into.

Imani: Yeah. I think when you said that I was wanted, I felt that so deeply. And I feel like I do feel very wanted by my mother, but I think because of her own past traumas, specifically dealing with her own mother and growing up with nothing, growing up dirt poor, sometimes I haven't felt really wanted by her. And that has to deal with, I think, her hoarding issue. And it's the one thing that we fight about the most. And I've always fought about it, and the more that I've left the home and gone on to live my life and lived other places, it's always when I come back where the drama ensues. And I feel that I also cannot bring up the issue anymore because of the crisis that my family is in and the crisis she's in right now.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about this because⁠—so I guess I have a question about the hoarding, though. Is her hoarding⁠—does it pose a danger to herself or her block? Do you know what I mean?

Imani: Yeah. I don't think it poses a danger yet. I think it's getting close because the older she gets, the more that it is getting harder to move around and clear out stuff. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. But in terms of her hoarding, she's not hoarding animals or rotting food or anything like that?

Imani: No. No.

Jessica: Okay, because [crosstalk].

Imani: No. It's just the longing⁠—yeah. For sure. But it's⁠—she can't let go of objects.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. And have you done any research into the psychology behind hoarding?

Imani: I have. I've done some. And again, it has made me⁠—like, the more that I also start to see⁠—so the land that, actually, my mother is on, it's been land that's been passed down in my family for generations, like going back to the 1900s. And so it was my grandfather's land in South Carolina that my aunt kind of⁠—or he split it up between all of the siblings, and then it really lived in my aunt's name. And once my aunt passed, then my mother lives there now. But there's three trailers out there that my grandfather had, and he's been dead for years now. They're just sitting out there. And so it's something that I am starting to realize is being passed down.

Jessica: Yeah.

Imani: Yeah. There's just so many things within the family that I feel like are being passed down. And there is a fear in me of even carrying that on to the next generation if I choose to have kids.

Jessica: Yeah. But so far, you're kind of the opposite of a hoarder, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: It's not just a reaction to your mom. It's also just you get bored of stuff. You get burdened by stuff, yeah?

Imani: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: So let me start with that. It's that, again, you're not the same, and I think that's important because on the one hand, you don't need to fear all of a sudden waking up one day and be like, "Oh shit. I have a trailer full of stuff, and I didn't realize that was happening." I don't see you ever being that seduced by many things. I do see you could be seduced by expensive individual things, but you're more of a quality that quantity girl. Am I right about that?

Imani: Yes. Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. So that's a you thing. The other thing is it's really hard to understand this because you don't resonate with it. So, on the one hand, that's great news because you don't want to resonate with it. But on the other hand, my understanding about hoarding, which exists on a spectrum, is it is hyper-sentimentality. Everything is equally important, and I couldn't possibly let go of one thing because letting go of one thing means I'm letting go of something of that person or of me.

And it is also insulating. Stuff is insulating. So, when you feel lonely or when you feel unmoored in a dangerous world, having stuff around you can make one feel safe, insulated, protected. Now, of course, that is not technically true. You have too much stuff around you, and there's a lot of things that are psychically damaging about that because there's no room. There can be physical things that are very dangerous, as well, from dust and allergens to navigating a space.

But I'm going to give you the homework of reflecting on those two pieces, that this family habit is not knowing how to find safety and so insulating themselves as a way to create safety or the illusion of safety, and it's also sentimentality. Now, you're a writer, correct?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: You've got this glorious, bright Grand Trine between your Jupiter/Midheaven conjunction, Mercury/Sun conjunction, and your Moon/Mars conjunction. I mean, fire. It is on fire, this trine, this Grand Trine. So you can tell a very big story in detail, and you can put energy into it. And as you do that, you let it go because that's how fire works. It's just like once you've experienced it, you kind of release it. That's just how you're wired. This is just very you. I don't know that you have relatives that you're like, "Oh yeah, that person's just like me."

Imani: No.

Jessica: You don't. You don't. And it's just like this is just who you are, which is super cool and weird, and it's not bad or good. It's just super cool and weird. That said, hyper-sentimentality⁠—you don't get it. Holding on to stuff, insulating yourself with stuff, it feels like pressure. It feels like obligation. It feels like being stuck, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: For them, it feels really different. So this first bit of homework I'm giving you is to maybe reflect on or even write fictional pieces about this hyper-sentimentality, this insulating the self through things, from the perspective of somebody who feels this way, who's safe this way. And because you have a Pisces Rising and you've got this Venus/Saturn conjunction, I would say write lots of short things if you can because you first start off by idealizing it and making it too precious. And when it becomes more real to you, you'll be able to write something that's a little more real.

Imani: Got it.

Jessica: And when it gets a little more real, it'll shift from an idea, a concept, something that's separate from you, into something that can kind of make sense of⁠—it's not just the women in your family; it's your matrilineage. It's that whole line. So what's your aunt's name?

Imani: Her name is [redacted].

Jessica: And what did you call her?

Imani: Aunt Mary.

Jessica: Didn't you have a nickname for her? Did she go by something?

Imani: My mom and her⁠—wow, that's crazy, because they have very random nicknames. My aunt would call my mom [redacted], and I think my mom would call my aunt [redacted].

Jessica: That makes sense because I was like, "There's some weird name that she's trying to pull in here." Okay. We're here. So your aunt was like your second mom. She took care of your grandmother for many years, eh?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Did she not have her own kids?

Imani: She had a son, but they don't have a great relationship either.

Jessica: Yeah. And are you in relationship to him?

Imani: I am. We're not super close.

Jessica: You have very different values. You have different lifestyles.

Imani: Yeah. Yeah. It's very different lifestyles.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Very different kind of people. He just broke off is what it looks like. He just broke off from the family, not just from his mom. He just was like, "Yeah, I'm an adult now. That's what I'm doing. Bye." And that was kind of it, like real weird dude stuff.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: But your aunt⁠—I mean, she always thought of you as hers.

Imani: Yeah. She did.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. She was careful to not try to take you from your mom, because your mom was sensitive about it, but she's⁠—I mean, she feels like your mom. Your Aunt Mary, she has this habit of protecting your mom and the family.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: She's real hesitant about saying anything negative about anyone. See, the thing is you and Mary have nothing left unsaid, according to Mary. She knows how much you loved her. She knows the place she had in your life and in your heart. And she got you. She was not threatened by the fact that you would disappear⁠—not disappear, but kind of disappear sometimes. You would go off and live your life, and it was big. And then you would reach out, and you would share what you felt called to share.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: And that didn't feel like anything other than she was excited that you were having such a good life.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Even when things were really hard for you, you are just always so dynamic. I guess you're a lot like your aunt, actually. But your aunt didn't live this way. She could have been this way.

Imani: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: But she did what she felt was right. Taking care of your grandma was what she felt was right. It gave her a sense of meaning, and that was really, really important to her, to have a sense of meaning. She says that's important to all of you, the whole family. Everyone actually really cares about having a sense of meaning in the family, which is something she's proud of.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: She doesn't want you picking at scabs.

Imani: Wow.

Jessica: She doesn't want you picking at scabs. Sorry.

Imani: That was like⁠—woo. Oh my gosh. You're saying something that I think even I've repressed, or not even repressed, but just things that you don't say to other people that⁠—yeah.

Jessica: Okay. But she says you say that, but you really want to pick at all these scabs. You want to figure out what happened with their mom. You want to figure out why Mary held on to things. She doesn't think she's a hoarder. She understands why she thinks your mom is a hoarder, but she was more of a collector. She had a lot of nice stuff. She doesn't think she was a hoarder.

Imani: That's what my mom says as well.

Jessica: Okay. I mean, I think that's what every hoarder says, to be honest. And your mom is more of a hoarder than Mary, or is that just Mary telling me things?

Imani: You know what? I think you're 100 percent right because even when I was a child, I could still go to my aunt's house and there would be a sense of normalcy, where my home did not have that. I think once my aunt had to start really caring for my grandmother, things became too much for her. But I don't know if it was necessarily hoarding. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it was, but it wasn't.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: One of the characteristics of hoarding⁠—and I'm not a psychologist. It's not my expertise, but most hoarders say, "I'm not a hoarder." That seems pretty on brand, so that's okay, although Mary's like, "Yeah, but I actually wasn't a hoarder." So it's fine. Okay. She is a lot like you. I change my answer. I'm sorry. She just didn't live like you, but she's like⁠—your personalities are so similar. And is your mom the older sibling?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Because it feels like that's the dynamic. Your mom is the older sibling. Okay. Listen. Mary's attitude should not surprise you. She feels that it's better to get along to the best of your ability. This is just who Mary is. This is how she lived. Now, that's not my attitude. That's not your attitude. But it's not bad advice.

And so the question really is, what is it that you want from your family relationships? Because let's say you feel, as the only child, that you actually do want to have a relationship with your mom that's more functional. Unfortunately, you have to accept her for who she is, which is really hard to do when you're like, "Uh, you're not right. You could do things to make your life better." Oh, Mary just got so annoyed that I said that. But that's how you feel. Am I wrong? Is that not how you feel about your mom?

Imani: That is how I feel. I feel like her life could be so much better if she would just⁠—yeah.

Jessica: If she would just change a lot.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: And Mary⁠—I get the sense that she would listen to you talk about your mom, but she wouldn't really speak ill of your mom. Is that correct?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. She wanted to offer a safe space. She understood and got it a lot of the times, and a lot of the times, she actually didn't agree with you. But she loved you and she just wanted you to feel safe, and she wanted to listen to you. She feels that if you're going to get along, you just gotta suck it up and get along. So does your mom. You, my friend, are not wired to suck it up and get along. It's a fucking terrible goal for you. I'm not going to tell you to suck it up and get along. It's not realistic. I don't see that happening. You don't do that with anyone, I'm assuming, ever.

Imani: Yeah. I just am like, "I don't need this." With my mom, I'm like, "Well, I don't want to walk away from my mother over something that⁠"⁠—it doesn't seem like there's something that she can really control, you know? It's not like she's actively trying to do this to me. And so that's why I feel like I want to heal whatever with her, but I also feel like it's⁠—I don't know. I feel like there's a part of it where I think when I wrote this question to you, I think now I'm realizing⁠—or maybe it's not. Maybe it's other things in my life, but I feel like it seeps into my romantic relationships.

Jessica: I agree. Yeah.

Imani: And that's why I'm like, "Ah."

Jessica: I agree. I'm sorry I was so emphatic. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I was like, "Don't cut yourself off. Yes, it does." Okay. I agree. Walking away from your mother is not going to make you feel better than struggling with your mother. Mary is giving a very important insight here. She doesn't want you to pick at scabs. Your mom doesn't want you to pick at scabs. It doesn't matter what your grandmother wants in this regard because you're not actually talking to her in a critical, analytical way. What kind of help is it that you're trying to give your mom or support is it that you're trying to give your mom?

Imani: Honestly, because I can't be there physically, I kind of wanted to give her emotional support. I think Mary always gave my mother emotional support, and I would guess my dad does as well. But truly, my aunt was her rock. And so I wish I could be that for her. But because of the feelings I felt for so long, it is hard to show up that way and to be emotional support.

Jessica: Okay. So let me just interject to this because you cannot be your mother's sister. Your mom and your aunt survived their childhoods together. They stayed connected. They had forged a friendship that required a lot⁠—very few words. And they agreed that you don't pick at scabs, which I think you're basically a professional picker at scabbers. You're just like, "Question everything. Talk about everything. Move through everything"⁠—

Imani: Yes.

Jessica: ⁠—which, honestly⁠—not easy. But best-case scenario, that means you don't resonate with this family trauma pattern, which is great. But setting the goal of becoming your mom's bestie or your mom's sister is an unrealistic goal for both of you. But the sentiment is the right one. The sentiment is, "I understand that my mom lost someone that she needs and that I needed, and that vacuum has created an opportunity for us to be closer." But you can't be closer like Mary was close to her or Mary was close to you because are you going to sit and listen and not say anything, Sun and Mercury in Aries?

Imani: No.

Jessica: No. No, you're not. Never. I mean, maybe once, but then everything's going to come out the next day.

Imani: Exactly.

Jessica: It's not happening. So that's not what you have to offer. Cool. What you gotta figure out is what you do have to offer. Offering unsolicited advice or help is a bad idea for your mother to you or you to your mother. Agreed?

Imani: Yeah. 100 percent.

Jessica: Yeah. Well, when you think about it from your mother to you, it's easy to see, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: It's important to, first of all, try to train yourself to be like, "I am not going to do this to her because I don't like it when she does it to me." Let's start with that, okay? That means her hoarding is her business. The more you try to stop her from hoarding, the more she'll just cut you out.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Her coping strategy is to become like a rock. So you push her; she becomes a bigger rock. That's it. So don't push her, just like she pushes you and you go away. She wants you to stay, so she pushes you, so you go away. The two of you haven't figured out how to accept the other one. You're trying to model what you want instead of listening to the other person, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: In an ideal world, your mom would identify that, your mom would figure it out, and your mom would be the one to do this. But⁠—I don't want to blow your mind⁠—this world is not ideal. Right? You've seen the world, right? The Saturn Return, like I said at the start of our conversation, is when we either become our parents or we don't. What you've been doing is what your mom would do⁠—something that is not right for you, that you resent, that you can't sustain. Does your mom like to talk about her problems?

Imani: No.

Jessica: Okay. So, when you get on the phone, what does she like—

Imani: Oh. Actually, you know what? I say that, and no, because every time we get on the phone, it's like word vomit of her problems. Yeah.

Jessica: Yes. Right. It's not your idea of her, but it is the reality of her, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: You have a hard time just listening to people have a victimy, "Everything's wrong. There are no solutions"⁠—

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: ⁠—right? It's very hard for you. What if I told you all she needs is somebody to listen and be like, "I hear what you're feeling. That is really a rough way to feel. I love you"⁠—what Mary did for you, by the way. That is actually all your mom needs. I don't know that you can start there, but it's not a bad place to point yourself in because I do think it's possible for you. It would require, when you're on the phone with her⁠—I don't know⁠—sewing something? Doing a handicraft, ideally with copper because of your Moon/Mars conjunction. I know that might sound a little woo, but if you can make stuff or get a copper ball and just move it around in your hand⁠—maybe draw, like just with pen and paper. You know what I mean? Something that is⁠—

Imani: Wait. Why is it copper?

Jessica: Mars is copper. Yeah. And you have a Mars/Moon conjunction that's intercepted, and it's the part of you that's like, "Yeah, I'm going to call her and I'm just going to be quiet, and I'm going to listen." And you're like, "No, I have to say something." Mars is a real big aggressor. You know what I mean? You're just very fiery, so it's hard for you to pull yourself back. And this is⁠—when you want to scream the word, "OMG. Stop complaining," all you'd have to do is open the front door, and there would be air in the house. For you, it's just like, "Is this really a conversation?"

So you just write those words. It doesn't have to be a sentence. You draw the door open. Finding a way to create an outlet that's healthy so you're not like, "I want to stab myself in the face." You're also achieving your goal, which is to show up for your mom in a way that is supportive to her, because I think what you're trying to do is be supportive to her and get your needs met at the same time, which is, in general with your mom, unrealistic, but in particular in the darkness of this situation that you and your mom are in mourning and that your grandmother is in crisis and in need, it's not the best time for this kind of a thing. And you know what? Honestly, for you, if you were in your mom's position, it might be, because crisis makes you extra like, "What needs to change? What needs to change?"

Imani: It does. Yeah.

Jessica: Yes, which is part of why you're like, "Okay. How do I change this?" But it makes your mom hunker down. It makes her square her shoulders. It makes her cover her chest. Her coping mechanism is not uncommon for someone who was raised with a lot of chaos. And Mary approved of that statement, by the way. She actually kind of hasn't been around for all the stuff we've been talking about, but all of a sudden, she was like, "Yes. That's why she's like that," which is why Mary had a lot of patience for your mom, because Mary did something similar. They hunkered down. It was their response to the chaos.

And you, by contrast, were raised in a very stable, consistent environment. So you get to zip around the fucking world exploring ideas and meeting new people and having experiences because you have this solidity in you. That comes from your mom and your dad, of course, and not just them. But I think⁠—see, Mary doesn't want you to feel bad. Mary feels that what I'm saying is making you feel a little guilty or a little bad for your mom. Is that right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. I'm sorry. I don't want that to be the case, but see, this is why⁠—Mary's like, "This is why we don't talk about things." But I disagree with that. I think it's okay to have challenging emotions. It's about understanding them so that you can move through them and they don't get stuck, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: But this is not their way. Okay. Mary's like, "Don't tell me what my way is," which I respect. Mary just really is distracting me, and she wants me to let there be enough space so that you feel different, and when you feel different, you'll feel better. And when you feel better, then we can kind of gently talk about something else. That's how she wants me to take care of you, and this is how she was with you, I'm assuming, yeah?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. It is ironic that I'm essentially telling you to do that with your mom. Yeah. Mary is scared because Mary doesn't feel that that's fair to ask of you because you're a kid. Now, I am engaging with you as a young adult but an adult, and you will always be a kid with your mom⁠—or your moms, because she's kind of one of your moms. I fear that the way that she wants, for instance, me to talk to you right now is underestimating your capacity to move through things and understand things and have empathy and challenge yourself. And she is like this because that's how she is. That's how Mary is. That's how your mom is. And that's a survival mechanism that they have that you don't have. And so it does make you feel bad, and I'm sorry, but also, you don't have to stay feeling guilty or bad, right?

Imani: Yeah. It's like I feel bad, but it's like because I just wanted them to⁠—of course, you want the people you love to have a better life. But there is a sense of gratitude I do have for my mother that she⁠—even in the chaos that they both went through, they were able to provide the stability that I can go live this life. And in that way, I am so, so grateful. I think where I do feel that is like, well, "How can I break you out of the loop? How can I get you unstuck?" And I guess I just have to come to acceptance that I just have to let her be.

Jessica: Yeah.

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Jessica: In order for any person to get unstuck in any context, they have to believe they're stuck first. Do you think your mom thinks she's stuck?

Imani: No.

Jessica: Correct. She does not. Mary did not think she was stuck. She a little knew she was stuck, but she was okay with that. But your mom would fight you if you said she was stuck, because we all⁠—all of us⁠—live our adulthood in response, or in reaction, rather, to our childhood⁠—and a million other things, honestly. But your mom doesn't think she's stuck. So you trying to fix her, save her, help her, when she doesn't think there's a problem, it's kind of like⁠—this is a stupid metaphor, but I saw this really funny show. It was a British show. I think it was called Extra Ordinary. It is about⁠—whatever⁠—this sci-fi world.

But anyways, there was a group of stupid men who were like, "We're going to be vigilante superheroes, and we're going to try to save women on the street." It's a very funny show, and I strongly recommend finding it. And so they try to help women, none of whom want their fucking help, all of whom are deeply annoyed by them. It's just like a funny thing that doesn't in any way translate, so I'm going to say a better metaphor. Bear with me. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Imani: No, you're still good.

Jessica: Okay. Okay. You kind of got where I was going.

Imani: Yes.

Jessica: It's like whenever we try to help someone who doesn't want our help or doesn't even think they're in peril, they just feel pressed by us. This is where the excruciating question, on some level or another, we all must encounter in our Saturn Return or in our 30s is, can you accept your parents for being the flawed individual human adults that they are? A lot of who your mom is has nothing to do with you and is not yours to fix. So, if you could accept her⁠—hold on. No. Hold on. I can't move past that. Sorry. Okay. I got it. I got it. You don't always like her. Is that wrong?

Imani: No.

Jessica: Okay. And that Venus in Pisces and Venus Rising makes you feel like, "If I don't like her, that's bad and terrible." So you're trying to fix her so that you can like her better. Okay. So, first of all, that shit's human. It doesn't make you a bad person. Honestly, do we have to like our parents? No. We have to love our parents, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: It's not like, when someone gives birth to someone, you birth a friend. That's not a thing. You know what I mean? So I often think about parent/child, like adult child and parent relationships, as, if I met this person at a party, like at a nice, spacious dinner party, would I talk to them? You and your mom might talk for a minute, but you wouldn't talk for ten minutes, you know?

Imani: This feels so different, and I think I get so jealous of people who are best friends with their moms. And I think I just wanted that as I got older, but⁠—yeah.

Jessica: I don't blame you. I don't blame you. But I will say this. There are things about your mom that I think you could really genuinely like, but you would have to first accept the parts you don't like and accept yourself for not liking those parts, not liking her. And I think you can befriend elder women/older women and develop really intimate relationships that scratch that itch. Having intergenerational intimacies is really important. And you had that with your aunt. She corrected me⁠—you have that with your aunt. You still talk to her. She's still there for you.

You can have that with other adult people/women, and also not. And if you do that, then⁠—and this will take time and effort and some sadness, which Mary will fight me on me encouraging you to be sad ever at all. But again, that's a matrilineal issue here. So here's my advice. Let's say you start to accept, "Okay. I'm on the phone with my mom. I don't like her. I don't like the way she talks about life. I don't want to be in the same house that she lives in because it makes me feel claustrophobic. And I love her, and I want to figure out how to be in a relationship with her."

You might have to stay in that mess for months, and that's okay to be in that mess. It is not awesome, but it's okay. And in fact, I would say it's necessary, if you've heard the expression, "You need to go through it to get to it." Right? This is what you need to go through to get to the other side because on the other side, you have no idea what it is because you've never done this with your mom. But I think the two of you could have enough things that you find mutually interesting⁠—she reads, eh?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: She reads, and does she watch TV?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: So I feel like those are two things that⁠—

Imani: I'm sorry. I'm only laughing because it's like⁠—yeah. I feel like if there's anything she does in her life, it's like⁠—the amount of books that take up the house that⁠—yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. It's very hard to get rid of books. I mean, I feel like the generation raised with Kindle devices or whatever, like e-readers, has no idea the sentimentality associated with books⁠. Also, the cultural implications of owning books is that⁠—it's something that younger generations just don't get. It used to be like owning an encyclopedia was an indication of wealth and intelligence and education and all these things, and now people are like, "What? That's Google. Are you talking about Google? Like a book of Google? That sounds so hard."

So, eventually, I do think the two of you could have a book club. I do think the two of you could be like, "Okay. We are watching Season 2 of this stupid, terrible show or of this challenging, engaging show, and then we're going to talk about it. Once a week, we're going to hop on a call, and we're just going to talk about that thing." Find a shared interest in something that you can talk about that isn't scratching at scabs and also isn't boring and exhausting to you.

Imani: I love that. I love that so much. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. And you're going to have mixed feelings about this, but you could send her books in the mail, right? If you could teach her the technology, you could maybe even get her an e-reader device, something with really big writing on it. And I don't know that she could use it at this moment, but if you got her something like that that she could use, then you could just send her a different book so you weren't adding to the hoard if that's important to you.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Honestly, I don't know if you've read from both e-readers and⁠—they're not satisfying like books are.

Imani: No. [crosstalk]

Jessica: Yeah. Books. Yeah. Yeah. They smell. They look. They feel. Your mom's not going to like an e-reader, but if it is important to you and she's amiable to learning, that could be something you do. They have programs where you can send books to incarcerated women and other kinds of similar programs. I feel like your mom could be into something like that. If you were ever going to get her to do that, you cannot approach this as, "Hey, Mom, I think you should get rid of some of your books. You have too much stuff," because the conversation has ended before it's begun, okay?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: But what you could do is, after a long period of time of you not bugging her about her house, you could be like, "My friend just told me about this thing she did where she sent all these books to this organization. It is so cool. I'm so glad this exists. I've been thinking about doing this, but I don't have a lot of books. If you ever want to do this, I think it would be such a cool thing, and I could help you pull it together because it's important to advocate for"⁠—insert demographic. Your mom could be into that. She wouldn't do it if she felt that you were trying to get her to get rid of things, but if she felt like you were⁠—

Imani: Yeah. If she was doing⁠—yeah. The value of it. Yeah.

Jessica: Yes. Doing good in the world. Exactly. And doing something with you, doing something that⁠—her things are being appreciated and valued, they have meaning, that her collecting of things is for something greater, and that you see the value in what she's collected, that you understand that every book is an experience for her⁠—which you do understand even though it's hard to get it with her. But you do get that. That'll work, but you can't start there. That's the place you want to start. Don't start there. You gotta start kind of with the acceptance piece, which means accepting that you don't always like her.

Now, I want to acknowledge we haven't really talked about your grandma.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Do you have any questions about her?

Imani: I don't know if I actually have any questions about her. I think, honestly, like what you said and what Mary said and the picking at the scabs⁠—I think that just kind of, like⁠—you know.

Jessica: That's it.

Imani: Yeah. It is what it is.

Jessica: It is what it is. Okay. So⁠—real talk⁠—we cannot go for much longer, but we have to touch on your love life, don't we?

Imani: Yeah. I would just love⁠—even if it's a quick⁠—

Jessica: Sure. Of course. So, when you date⁠—do you date?

Imani: I do date. Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. And what genders do you date?

Imani: I mostly date men, but they usually are more femme-presenting.

Jessica: All right. Cis dudes, but femmey.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. Do you get into relationships?

Imani: I have not been in a relationship in a long time.

Jessica: And when you get into relationships, do you want monogamy?

Imani: I do. I think I do. Yeah.

Jessica: Do you do monogamy?

Imani: (laughs)

Jessica: Yeah. I'm looking at your chart. I see you.

Imani: I feel like I want monogamy because I feel like I am a jealous person.

Jessica: Because you are. Yeah. Because you are⁠—except when it comes to you.

Imani: Yeah. The longest relationship I was in was a long-distance, open relationship, which is fine because I know the person loved me and they cared, but then I also⁠—yeah⁠—was out⁠—

Jessica: Out doing what needs to be done.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Right. Here's the thing. All this fucking fire in your chart, it's like, "When I'm alone and I'm doing me, it has nothing to do with you." And so, therefore, you can be in open relationships. But that fucking Venus/Saturn conjunction requires monogamy and devotion and proof.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. And you are possessive because Pluto squares your Ascendant. Okay. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, all of this said, what question do you have about love? What could I be helpful⁠—because we don't have all the time in the world, so focus me.

Imani: Yeah. Yeah. I think my question⁠—I feel like sometimes my mother⁠—especially with the hoarding, it is an attachment to objects instead of people a lot of times. And so I find that with friendships, I don't have this much of an issue, like I found good "found family." But as soon as relationships start to⁠—I don't know if I sense this person⁠—like you said, the proof. If there is no proof, I am out the door. I am running. And that's why I'm like, I would so love to be with a person. I would so love partnership. But there is like a step that I'm missing that I can't get over. And that's what's kind of causing a lot of these great people I'm meeting⁠—but nothing to come of them.

Jessica: Okay. Your Grand Trine in fire is like, "If it doesn't happen fast, it's never going to happen. I'm out."

Imani: Yes. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. I literally just had⁠—I've just been seeing someone and had to break it off, and I was like, "It's not happening because it's not⁠—yeah. It's not happening fast enough for me."

Jessica: And so how much time did you give the person?

Imani: A month and a half.

Jessica: Uh-huh. Yes. That's what I would expect. Okay. I have a rule, because I'm a fucking Capricorn, and it's three months. Three months, because in a month⁠—one period cycle? One menstrual cycle? A month? That's all you're doing? You ovulated twice and you're out? That's it? I don't know. That doesn't seem right. Three months is like a general rule, for whatever that's worth, okay?

That said, the reason why you're not attracted to guys who are super there and ready⁠—I mean, if there are guys that are like that in the world, the reason why you're not attracted to those guys is because they bore you. Am I right?

Imani: Yeah. Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. So you like people who are distracted, who are engaged, who are all over the place. And those same people are going to do what you do. They're not going to move, actually, that fast with the intimacy piece. They're going to move fast with experiences, maybe, but not with intimacy. And so, in a way, are you kind of dating boy versions of yourself?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. You leave boy you because they don't show up for the realness. But are you showing up for the realness? Do they know you're showing up for the realness?

Imani: That is a good question. I feel like it. I feel like I'm trying to show up for the realness, and I feel like I'm trying to express.

Jessica: So you tell them.

Imani: Yeah. But I also think sometimes my expression can get a little muddied, and then I get fiery. And then I look back, like in the contemplation, and I'm like, "Oh, maybe I could have done better at"⁠—yeah.

Jessica: Okay. So here's what I think you do, which is reasonable for only one month and one half⁠—two ovulations, if I may. You, Sun/Mercury conjunction, sometimes confuse verbalizing things as showing up for things.

Imani: Wow. Yeah.

Jessica: You say to him, "I'm here. Let's do this." And then you go away. And then you feel like, "Well, I told him I was ready to do this," instead of leaving emotional space for him to come step into the room with you, take a sense of what the room is, and decide where to sit. You leave no space for that because you've said the idea.

Imani: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I feel so seen.

Jessica: Seen is good. Maybe being called out is also good.

Imani: I know. I mean, I say seen, but maybe a little [indiscernible 00:49:51] right now.

Jessica: Yes. That's closer to the truth, if I may be honest too. I agree. Yes. Yes. This is a reaction from your childhood. Everything moves so slowly, so slowly, so you're like, "Well, I'm not going to get trapped. I need it to move fast." But emotions⁠—and you may have heard me say this before, but I feel that emotions are like a corgi with a cone around its head. Have you ever seen a corgi with a cone around its head?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: They're so low to the ground, and they can't navigate anything.

Imani: They can't. Yeah.

Jessica: No. They can't see shit. They can't do shit. And they're adorable but not graceful, right?

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: That's emotions. You want emotions to be a stallion. That's not emotions. That's sex. That's fun. That's dates. That's ideas, even. But emotions are a corgi with a cone on its head. So, if you invite a stallion into your life and say, "Here's a cone on your head. As I place it around your head, you will shrink inside. You'll become a corgi," you have to give them some space to adjust. And if it was happening in the reverse and the guys were coming at you being like, "Okay. I'm ready for you to show up and be here with me"⁠—has that ever happened?

Imani: No. I feel like it's usually me being like, "I'm ready." Well, it's hard because it's like what you said. It's like I'm dating the versions of myself, so it's like we meet each other with this energy, and then⁠—I don't know. It's like we always do this back-and-forth thing. They are at one point, and then I am, and then they're not, and then there's always this back⁠—and then I'm just like, "Okay. I'm ready to leave, then, because you can't"⁠—it's both of us can't get our shit together, but it's like, "I feel like you can't get more"⁠—

Jessica: But you feel like they can't. And that's because you've said the words. You're like, "Okay. I've told you what the thing is." And by the time you said the words, you're out. You're already done. You're already done. But here's the thing. In some romantic fairytales, my Venus in Pisces/Pisces Rising friend, the Princess meets the Prince, and she doesn't know he's a prince. And the feelings are there, and she doesn't realize that she's falling in love with a prince, and that's all she ever wanted. And then they're in love, and then she finds out that he's a prince.

That happens sometimes in fairytales and less frequently in real life. But that could happen, that setup I just gave you, in four weeks. For sure, that could happen in four weeks. But in regular people, real-life shit, you need more than four weeks to decide whether or not you actually are compatible with somebody or you know somebody well enough to be like, "I'm in." So that's where I get to my three-month rule. My three-month rule is this. It takes three months to know a person well enough to know whether or not you really want to get to know them. It takes hours to know whether or not you like their smell. It takes an evening in hopefully an enclosed space to know whether or not you're sexually compatible.

But in terms of knowing whether or not you are safe with this person, that you can be truly yourself with this person, that there's something worth really investigating⁠—takes three months. So, unfortunately, all of the advice I'm giving you is to slow down and accept how you feel when you feel bad. And this is the part where you are like your matrilineage, and it's not quite what you were thinking. It's the evasion of unpleasant emotions. You're down for drama. You're down for putting out fires, running into burning buildings. That's not a problem for you.

But sitting in things, that's really hard for you. And so your reaction to it is the opposite presentation than your mother's. She's like, "I'm sitting in things. I'm surrounded myself by things. Everything's fine." And you're like, "I don't sit anywhere. I go. Everything's fine." And it's like heads and tails. It's the same coin. Say your name, the name you go by, not your government name.

Imani: Yeah. [redacted]

Jessica: Oh. Okay. TBH, I don't know if you even really want to be in a relationship right now. I think you want to want to be in a relationship. I think you have a fantasy about the relationship. I don't know if that's actually what you want. You're doing something much more dynamic right now than trying to be in a long-term relationship. But just because that's not where you're at right now doesn't mean that you'll never get there.

Google is sometimes a liar. I say this because Venus conjunction to Saturn⁠—I am of the mind that shit is the marrying type. Now, the rest of your chart is like, "I will marry only when I have a house and a boat and the capacity to burn both of those things to the ground." You want a lot for yourself. You want a lot of freedom for yourself. But I think with the right person, you can have both intimacy, commitment, and freedom. To do it in the heterotypical way is not for you. I mean, if you were a dude, it would be for you. But it's not for you. Yeah.

You really do need an equal, and if he's not your equal and if he doesn't regard you as his equal, it's not going to work. You say you like femmey guys, but there's something very dudey about them.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: Are they like art dudes?

Imani: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. So they're femmey in presentation, but in real life, they're art dudes.

Imani: They're art dudes. Yeah. Especially the last person I was with was like, "Oh, you're the dudiest dude." And I literally explained it to other people like, "He's a dude."

Jessica: He's a dude. He crosses his legs in a really feminine way, but he's a dude. That's how I'm seeing him visually.

Imani: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. I looked at your chart. I get no sense that you want to have human children⁠—not that you're closed to it. It doesn't look like you're closed to it, but it doesn't look like you're like, "Oh, I have to give birth to be complete." That's not a thing for you that I'm seeing, which means you've got a lot of space and time. When there's no clock ticking, it gives you a lot more freedom of choice. And the thing that is present, the thing that is salient for you now, is your creative life and your familial stuff.

Give yourself permission to work on that. And if someone makes you excited, then chase them around a field for 20 minutes and see if you can tolerate two whole menstrual cycles with a guy before you end it or whatever. You know, make small amounts of change. But I wouldn't say that focusing on love relationships makes a whole lot of sense for you right now. It's not it yet.

Imani: Got it. Yeah.

Jessica: It's coming. It's coming. It's just not this moment. The stuff that is the most important to you you're doing. And that, I'm guessing, is true about you 99 percent of the time. So having a little more faith in yourself that when relationships with men becomes more important to you⁠—not sex, not adventures, not experiences, but relationships⁠—then you'll prioritize that, just like you have with everything else. And things don't always go the way you plan, but they go well for you, you must have noticed.

Imani: Yeah.

Jessica: You just gotta get clear about what you want. But this isn't the time to do that, because you're working hard and getting clear about stuff with your mom, which is essentially about with yourself. You're mourning your aunt, and your creative work⁠—which we're not talking about, but I want to just say fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. Do what you're doing. I'm sorry if I screamed that at you, but I just felt like I had to make it all caps.

Imani: Thank you.

Jessica: You know what I mean? It was all caps. So there is a time for everything. Astrology teaches us⁠ that's what transits are. This is time for everything. And this is your time for doing what you're doing. And if you do this stuff, as your instincts say, with your mom, what it will do is it will create a shift in your inner foundations upon which new kinds of dynamics with men can occur. New choices, new unconscious choices, will emerge. Right?

Imani: Got it. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah.

Imani: Oh, thank you. I feel so great after this. Thank you so much.

Jessica: Oh, it's so my pleasure. I'm so glad we did this.

Imani: I don't want to take up any more of your time, but I just have been trying to connect with my aunt since she's passed. And I know that I am speaking to her, but you know, sometimes just because I don't have that channel open that she can speak back⁠—but just to hear you speak to her and for her to come through, and just that moment when you said that thing about picking at the scabs, I was like, "Oh, yeah. That's"⁠—yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. That's her. She's with you, like, all the time. And also, she's not with you when it's not appropriate. She's like, "Don't worry. I don't want to see that either." She's fine with that. You know what I mean? Don't worry. Just like she always was, you know? It hasn't changed in that way for her. You've got a very loyal matrilineage. Your aunt, your mom, their loyalties to the people they love⁠—you never have to question it. They're just so stayed. They're so there. So that is a really beautiful thing. And it also makes sense why you are a live wire and you're only dating other live wires. But again, you're in your 20s. That's fine. It's fine. But she is with you.

And so this is what I'll say as the final thing, which is simply that she feels it's nice to have a box that you keep forever that is a place you can return to. You don't need to have a million things, but she feels that having a box that you could open, and then there's, like, a ring from her or a letter, a thing to ground you⁠—she feels like that would help you to connect with her and to receive her more. You should not be surprised this is her perspective, because she kept things from generations, not just from this life.

Imani: Oh yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. She was like a big, "This has been in the family for this long," even if it wasn't your family. She liked old things. This gives you a little bit of insight into your mom and your aunt's take on things, but also, Mary has found a way to show it to me to say to you that is you don't have to collect a bazillion things, but there is a value in holding on to some things, small things. And I don't know if she's just showing me a box just so that I say it's like a box, but it has to be something beautiful for you; otherwise, you're not holding on to it.

Find some weird way to do some sort of handicraft, and you create a box every time you're talking to your mom. You only work on it when you're on the phone with your mom. You can get really into a story about your creative process that would be both therapeutic, but also, it could result in you having a thing that is kind of touched by Mary and your mom. And Mary is saying Mary and your mom because when you're on the phone with your mom, she's going to make an effort to be with you, to help you, to remind you how she was with you, because you actually can do that. But you have to move through the fact that your mom annoys you. That's going to be the hard part, honestly.

She and I are collaborating on this advice. I think you should be doing a handicraft, even if it's just drawing. She's saying you could make a box because she wants you to hold on to things. And with all of that, you just do what feels right. But Mary is with you.

Imani: Okay.

Jessica: Yeah.

Imani: Thank you so, so much.

Jessica: Thank you. It's been really seriously such a pleasure. So thank you so much.