Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I'll be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica: Torrey DeVitto, welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.

Torrey: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

Jessica: What would you like a reading about?

Torrey: Gosh. I just would love a reading about life. I feel so connected to my family lineage and wanting to pass that on and have kids myself. And career has been such a priority. So just want an overall life reading about the direction and around family and kids and stuff like that.

Jessica: Okay. Great. So you were born June 8th, 1984, at 11:53 p.m. in Huntington, New York. So, when you talk about family, do you mean your family of origin, your partner, kids, puppy dogs, that kind of thing? Or all of it?

Torrey: Kind of all of it. But I feel very drawn to having⁠—and I haven't yet, and I also feel very drawn to adopting, and I haven't yet. And I'm confused about whether I should wait for a partner or whether I should just adopt on my own. You know? I'm at that space in my life where it's very important to figure these things out, too. And I just don't know which direction to go. I feel like I'm normally very clear, and I'm not very clear.

Jessica: Yeah. And do you feel like you're not really clear about this issue ever or just right now?

Torrey: Just right now. I think it's more like, do I adopt? Do I trust the path and wait? I'm just not very clear about that.

Jessica: I have so much to say, which is the lucky part of the situation. Now, okay. Are you dating currently?

Torrey: I'm dating, but I am single.

Jessica: Okay. Right. You're not, like, with someone.

Torrey: No.

Jessica: You date cis guys?

Torrey: Yes. I mean, typically. I'm open to male/female. I'm open to anyone coming in⁠, love in my life, whatever that looks like. I don't have a specific gender that I specifically⁠—I do tend to date men, but whoever wants to come in, it can come in. But yes. I do typically tend to date cis men.

Jessica: Okay. That was a very honest answer because you have this Uranus/Venus opposition in your birth chart. It'll give you a little Queer edge. You know what I mean? It's really about the person and the connection. The other thing that it gives you is romantic restlessness. I was studying your chart, and I was like, "Okay. You have two stelliums in two different parts of your chart. You've got a Gemini stellium, and then you've got an eighth-house stellium."

So, on the one hand, just very generally speaking, you are interested, curious, dynamic, like, "What's happening over here? What's happening over there?" Easily bored. Oh, boredom is terrible for you. And then, on the other hand, you are deep. You want things to not just be deep but to have the potential for permanence to them. You like repetition. You need consistency. These two things sound kind of challenging, not that they actually are⁠—they're not going to stop you from getting partnered and having kids, but it makes sense why, at the end of your 30s, you're like, "Wait. What?"

Torrey: Yeah. I feel like it's kind of like that in my career, too, right? I'm someone who craves home. I love having routine. I love knowing I can go to tennis on this day, tap on this day. I can take this class on that day. But then I chose a job that makes me travel, and I need to get out and travel, and I love traveling. But when I'm traveling, I miss home; when I'm home, I miss traveling. So I feel like it's like that all over my life.

Jessica: I agree, honestly. So, in your chart, you have two conjunctions that are actually, like, one degree off of technically being conjunctions. And I'm a stickler for the math of astrology, but in your chart, I was like, "I am really driven to say you have a Uranus conjunction to the Midheaven, even though it's eight degrees apart, and a Moon/Pluto conjunction, even though it's also eight degrees apart. I am going to explain what this means in a moment.

But sticking with what you just said, Uranus conjunction to the Midheaven⁠—what it does is it gives you a career that's constantly changing. And that is actually what you like best. I think the thing that's hard is, if you have a career that's constantly changing but you don't have a home base that feels really dynamic and safe and clear to you, that's the problem⁠—

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: ⁠—because I think you like missing people, and I think you like missing work, and you like missing home. That on its own isn't the problem. But you have this North Node conjunction to the IC. So, when you were growing up⁠—and this could have been your whole childhood, but it's more likely to have been between the age of birth and seven years old. Did you not have a stable home base? Was there a lot of changes or instability there?

Torrey: It was a lot of moving around. My dad's a drummer. He drummed with Billy Joel for 30 years. So we were always going on tour with him and traveling and moving around a lot⁠, not moving as in moving our home⁠—we lived in New York till I was 11⁠—but traveling.

Jessica: But moving around a lot, right? Your home base was theoretical, it sounds like.

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: So that's your Chiron/North Node conjunct your IC. What it means is that you didn't have early developmental experiences that were like, "This is a healthy, well-adjusted experience of what home base means."

Torrey: (laughs)

Jessica: I'm guessing that means yes.

Torrey: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Jessica: There's this part of you that, from a spiritual perspective, is⁠—it's like remembering what worked for you in the past. It's not meant to work for you in the present or the future, but there's this part of you that has instinctually said, "Okay. So, if home base is completely an unpredictable environment, then what I'll do is I'll just have a career that constantly pulls me around." And that makes perfect sense except that North Node conjunct the IC does mean you want kind of a picket fence.

Torrey: I do.

Jessica: Not to the exclusion of your career, but you really want a home base.

Torrey: I do. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica: And it's got to be super pretty because you have a Venus/Sun conjunction in the fourth house. So you love nice⁠—

Torrey: Is that why I'm obsessed with the beauty of homes?

Jessica: Yes.

Torrey: That's so funny. I'm always like, "Oh, I don't know. I want to change it." I'm obsessed with my home⁠ not being beautiful in a materialistic, expensive way, but I need it to be cozy and lovely and the way I want it. And I get very⁠—

Jessica: It has to be a sanctuary.

Torrey: Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. That Venus/Sun conjunction makes you obsessed with creating aesthetic sanctuary. And my guess is your home has cozy spots.

Torrey: Very.

Jessica: Like, "I can snuggle here. I can chill out there."

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: But then, on top of it, because you have this eighth-house stellium, the kitchen and the bathroom are the two rooms that you're very intense about. And whoever you partner with, they're going to have to bend to your rules in the bathroom and the kitchen.

Torrey: Well, maybe we'll just have to get separate bathrooms, then.

Jessica: Honestly, that was what I was going to say. I was like, "Don't even fuck around with it. Exactly. So I want to just kind of say that when I was prepping your chart, I was like, "Okay. So there's a couple things to talk about." The first one is there's something in astrology called the Nodes, or the Nodal Axis. Have you heard of this?

Torrey: Well, North Node I've heard of, but not the⁠—

Jessica: Yes. So the North Node is where our soul is meant to be going in this lifetime. But wherever we have the North Node, the exact opposite spot⁠—there's the South Node. And the South Node is where we've been in most previous lifetimes, what we have a memory of having worked, but what we're not meant to do in this lifetime. For you, it's conjunct the Midheaven, which is the career, which doesn't mean you're not supposed to have a dynamic, big career. But it means that's not the lesson you're here to learn. Yes, career comes naturally to you. It's this home stuff.

And so the key that I think is super important for you is a couple things. One is recognizing that, from my perspective as an astrologer, I wouldn't have predicted that it would come to you before the age of 38 or 40 anyways. This is like a spiritual evolution thing. You also have a Mars/Saturn conjunction, which is a bit of a late bloomer scenario, okay? There's this way that, on a spiritual level, you're here to figure out what is right for you and give yourself permission to actually choose it.

And when it comes to your career, that's actually not that confusing for you. You just figure it out. You do it. You say no to what you want to say no to. You say yes to the things you like.

Torrey: Right.

Jessica: When it comes to dating, when it comes to creating family with someone, you're less decisive. It's more confusing for you. And you are currently going through a Pluto square to Pluto, which is the first transit out of three that are associated with the midlife crisis.

Torrey: Oh. Wow.

Jessica: I know. People sometimes panic when I use that term. Sorry. But it's the time. It's the time. And the Pluto square to Pluto⁠—we're going to talk about it a lot in a minute. But I want to say this is the time when you are meant to be asking the exact questions that you're asking, like, "What am I actually doing with my life? What do I actually want in terms of a family and love?" I think a little deeper than that is, "What do I actually need to let go of, and what do I need to fight harder for?" It's an issue of priority that can only be managed by going deep into your early developmental stuff. I'm going to ask you to say your full name out loud for me.

Torrey: Torrey Joël DeVitto.

Jessica: Thank you. What's your mom's last name, her maiden?

Torrey: Torrey.

Jessica: Oh. Her maiden last name is Torrey?

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: Oh. Wow. That's so cool. And your parents are separated now?

Torrey: Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. It feels like that to me. Okay. We're going to start with the love life if that's okay.

Torrey: Yes. Sure.

Jessica: Okay.

Torrey: There's a lot to unpack there.

Jessica: I feel like there's a lot to unpack there. So I'm seeing a three-year-long relationship. Am I seeing something correct here?

Torrey: I just got out of a two-year relationship in⁠—October? Yeah, October.

Jessica: Recent. Very recently. Okay. And is your longest relationship three years?

Torrey: No. My longest relationship was six years. We got married when I was 26. We married for two years, but we were together for a total of six. We had a little breakup in there, like a six-month breakup.

Jessica: Okay. You've heard of the seven-year itch, obviously, right?

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: You seem to have a three-year itch. There's something I'm seeing about threes for you. I'm not sure what it is. So you said you want family, but do you want to be married?

Torrey: I do. I feel like I do. I know I want⁠—the idea of having history with someone and having a best friend and being in love and having a family just sounds so lovely. I just feel like I date the wrong people.

Jessica: Yeah. That's fair.

Torrey: And I don't actually really care about legal marriage. I would love a simple⁠—whether it's rings or whatever and doing the little party with family. Legal marriage I don't care about. I've always loved the idea of hyphening my name with someone else's if we had a kid so that we all had the same⁠—I like having the same, but that could change for me, too. I'm not really sure. But as far as legal marriage, I've never⁠—I don't need that.

Jessica: Okay. That makes a little more sense to me. Again, the Uranus/Venus opposition is really weird about commitment, like doesn't always like commitment is what I want to say. You say you've chosen the wrong guys.

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: Do you kind of know at the beginning that you're choosing the wrong guy and you keep on going with it, or does it kind of turn out at a certain point that something's wrong?

Torrey: I think I know it. And I'm more referring to dating older, like in my 30s and stuff. Not so much in my 20s. My 20s was about that love that's so blinding you⁠—you know what I mean?

Jessica: Totally.

Torrey: In my 30s, yeah. I think there was always signs in the beginning, or I'd even date people that would tell me where they're at and where their head space is at, and I think it's that whole thing of feeling like if the love is strong enough, you'll both find yourselves in sync and in line or thinking you've changed someone or having the red flags⁠—like in my last relationship, red flags popped up that I definitely chose to ignore because they were telling me they weren't there, but I knew in my gut. So yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. This is checking out. Thank you for sharing this because you've got this immaculate gut. You know from the get what's wrong. My guess is that the things that you know in the first few months end up being the thing that's a problem at the end.

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: But your brain is so compelling. You're just like, "But it could mean this, and it could mean that." And you kind of talk yourself out of things. Is that right?

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah. It is right.

Jessica: What you're doing right now, from what I'm seeing energetically, is you're doing the things that a person does to date, but it doesn't look like you're really doing the right things for you. Is that what's happening?

Torrey: Yeah. That does make sense. It makes a lot of sense. I feel myself trying to put myself out there the way I feel I should be putting myself out there, but I know that's not how I want to meet somebody and how I want somebody to come in. And then I feel myself dating people thinking, "Well, this checks all the boxes, so maybe this could work," knowing in my gut that⁠—kind of need a weirdo to match me. You know what I mean?

Jessica: Yes. Yes. You need a weirdo. I'm so glad you know. Okay. Good, because that Mars/Saturn conjunction⁠—there's a part of you that says, "I should find a man's man. I should find a guy who's kind of a traditional guy who can show up and be this masculine protector vibe." And I would say that's good for you in bed, but I don't know if it works for you outside of the bedroom.

Torrey: That makes total sense because I feel like I get very attracted to somebody who⁠—this is not to take away my power as the female in the dynamic, but I'm attracted to somebody who I feel like I can rely on and feel safe around, but when we're out in the world, having the same sense of humor, and them understanding my quirkiness and going with it is so important to me. And I just was saying this the other day. I feel like finding that dynamic of that guy that shows up a lot and is masculine⁠ but also can play with me and is feminine and be quirky and weird with me is really challenging.

Jessica: I mean, men are hard. I mean, people are hard, but men are especially hard. You need a guy who can turn it on to, on a scale from one to ten, ten on the masculine scale in bed and around flirting, but you don't necessarily need a specifically super butch guy, or if you end up with a [crosstalk]⁠—

Torrey: No. Yeah.

Jessica: ⁠—doesn't have to be a super masculine person, because what you actually value more than anything is curiosity. You want to be curious about their lives, about their thoughts. You want to have a lot of back and forth. And if you don't have that, you're not going to feel like there's an equality there. And if you don't feel like there's equality, you won't want to have sex with them. You won't want to have family with them. And a lot of the guys you end up going for aren't actually strong enough for actual equality in a romantic dynamic.

Torrey: Yeah, especially in my last relationship. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Jessica: And it's weird because it's like there's the trappings of masculinity, which is a certain kind of strength, but it's not a strength of character. It's a different kind of strength. I think you need somebody with great strength of character who can also maybe get it right in the bedroom. But the strength of character is actually the most important thing for you. And when I look at the idea of you having kids with someone, more specifically coparenting with someone, I just don't see you being comfortable or happy being 100 percent of the time in the traditional mother/wife role.

Torrey: Yeah. No, I see that for sure. I feel like my idea of family and motherhood is a little different in the sense where I just kind of want to put my kid on my back, and they're just going to come with me where they come with me. And I don't want that traditional⁠—everything is so regimented and routine. I want them to be freethinkers, but I also want to provide structure. So it's kind of like that dual thing that we were talking about in the beginning where it's like, "I want you to make your decisions. I also want to provide you structure. I want you to see the whole world so you can choose what you believe and what you love. And I also want to share with you my thoughts and sentiments on that."

So, yeah, and I want a partner that I can talk⁠—conversation is so⁠—I think being intellectually stimulated is so important to me, and then being curious about me as much as I'm curious about them, and that is back and forth, is really, really important to me. And I can say very confidently, especially my older years, I have not had that in a relationship yet. And I think that's where I shut down and when things start going awry, really.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. So I agree 100 percent. I am going to give you this advice, which is⁠—and are you dating on apps or something like that?

Torrey: No. You know what? I did that for little bit, and I'm not right now. I am just⁠—I don't know. I also am a big⁠—sense of smell is really important to me. 

Jessica: Yes.

Torrey: And pheromones and the way someone smells is so important that I find that on the app, there's a lot of people I would have met, and just that instinctual, energetic reaction of meeting someone and smelling them would have let me know if I wanted to spend time getting to know this person. And then you're kind of stuck somewhere with someone who you want to be very nice to because [crosstalk]⁠—

Jessica: Right.

Torrey: ⁠—showed up for you. But it's like⁠—I don't know. And actually, I met my last boyfriend on an app. So I'm not against them, but⁠—

Jessica: Right. Sun/Venus conjunction, plus that Moon in Libra conjunct Pluto⁠—it is your senses. If their voice grates, it's never going to happen. If their smell is off, it's never going to happen.

Torrey: It's so true.

Jessica: It's just how you are.

Torrey: Can I put a caveat with that?

Jessica: Yes.

Torrey: For anyone listening, if they think I'm a smell snob, I would much rather smell someone after they've been sweating and in their natural state than all the strong deodorants and⁠—I can't stand that stuff. So I'm not like, "They need to be wearing Chanel, blah, blah."⁠ No, no, no. I want somebody in their natural state.

Jessica: Yes. Yes. And it's also like you said. It's pheromones. I imagine also, in your home, certain smells that linger are a big no-no; others, you're just like, "Yes. More of that." You're just very smelly. You're smelly.

Torrey: Yes. Smelly.

Jessica: You're smelly. So there's a couple things. The first thing is I think it's really important that when you're on the first few dates with somebody, that you ask a lot of questions. Okay, you can't always tell on the first date, but by the third date, if they aren't asking just as many questions back, it doesn't matter how hot they are. It doesn't matter how good they seem on paper. It's a no. It's a no. In a way, it's that simple. You do not need to waste a lot of time.

And if you're like, "I don't know about this person. I'm not that attracted to them," or, "I just can't tell," but they're doing a really good job of asking a ton of questions back, like interesting questions, and you're interested in what he has to say, then it's worth giving it an extra chance because you're somebody who gets really strong sense impressions and strong attractions, but you can also fall in love with a grower, not a shower, if you know what I mean.

Torrey: Yes. Absolutely. I'm all about growth.

Jessica: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So you really want the outcome, like the family, the partner, the bestie that you want to bone. But what you're really struggling with now is boundaries. It's boundaries with yourself. It's boundaries with other people. And we're right back to that thing you named, which is you're like, "I don't fucking know what I want exactly. I know I want all the things, but which of all the things do I want next?"

And I'm going to make a loop-de-loop to the topic of kids. You're in your late 30s, so it feels like ticktock, ticktock. But it doesn't look like you feel, in your body, this is the time to do it. Am I seeing that correctly?

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. When, in your life, you have made choices⁠—in your personal life in particular⁠—out of scarcity, like, "If I don't do it now, I'll never get to do it," has that ever actually worked out well for you?

Torrey: No.

Jessica: Never. Right. So that's the answer. And the risk with that answer is that you will run out of time and chances. So I don't say that to you lightly, because of course your mind is going to return to that old bastard, time. But I look at this energetically, and I see there's a door, but it's not unlocked. It's there, but I'm not seeing⁠—there's not a spotlight on this door.

This is a moment for you where the question of faith becomes a really big deal because I look at your chart, and on the one hand, I'm like, yes, you're all about faith. You take leaps of faith all the time. And on the other hand, I look at your chart, and I'm like, you have faith in your own capacity to make change and to try things, but I don't know that you always have faith that if you sit in a state of receptivity that it will come.

Torrey: No, I don't. No, I don't. I definitely have faith in that if I want something, I will get it done and do it. But that's my biggest challenge right now, I think, even with dating and everything, is sitting and letting it come the way it's going to come because this is not going out for an audition and choosing a career path or choosing whether I want to travel over the summer or stay home. This is somebody I could potentially be connecting myself to for the rest of my life. This is a bigger deal.

And I do feel like what's funny is, intellectually, I always say out loud, "I trust the path. If I'm meant to have it, it'll happen," because I feel like, in my life, I have been in situations or in relationships where it could have gone that way, and I've chosen not to stay in those relationships. And for somebody who says they want kids so bad, I've never been able to overlook something to make it happen. When people say, "Oh, are you going to freeze your eggs?" which is so personal and so⁠—everybody's choice. And I keep saying, "I just want to trust. And if it doesn't happen for me, I'm happy to adopt."

So I say it, but I don't know if I actually feel it, that sitting in receptivity in that way and I trust that⁠—it scares me so badly.

Jessica: It's so human. It's so human, and also, I don't blame you for not wanting to freeze your eggs. There are so many reasons why it's complicated and yada, yada, but also, your hormonal stuff around your cycle is intense.

Torrey: Yeah. Intense.

Jessica: You have a period; you feel it. I mean⁠—

Torrey: Oh my God, yes.

Jessica: I wouldn't wish that kind of experience on you because it wouldn't be chill. I'm not saying, "Oh, it would be bad," but you already know what your cycle's like. This is where we get into a thing. When your mom and dad got together, were they partnered before she got pregnant with you?

Torrey: Hardly.

Jessica: Yeah. They were, like, dating.

Torrey: I mean, they fell in love quick, and then I came quick.

Jessica: Right. Right, right, right. And how long did they stay together?

Torrey: Twenty years.

Jessica: Long time.

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: Huh. It's interesting. I look at your chart. Were you a wanted child? Fuck yes. Loved child? Fuck yes. Of all the problems that you've had in your life, it's not for a lack of being desired, loved, and chosen by your parents⁠—both of your parents.

Torrey: Yes. I feel that.

Jessica: But it looks like your mom kind of had to repress her intuition a lot in order to be in the relationship in the way that she felt she needed to be in the relationship with your dad.

Torrey: Yeah. That's interesting.

Jessica: I see this through your chart because you have something called Pisces intercepted the first house. What this did for you is it modeled for you, from in utero until you were about seven years old, that there's something about trusting your intuition when it comes to intimate relationships⁠—besties, partners, whatever⁠—that is a little dangerous because if your mom had really listened to her intuition, she would have put many of her feet down, like maybe a dozen of her feet down, in different ways than she did. But instead, she was like, "I'm going to just let this go. I'm going to just trust this." It ended up being a lack of boundaries that cost her a fair amount, eh?

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. This is where your fucking Pluto square to Pluto is activated. This is what's happening right now in your life. You're not the same person as your mom. You're not having the same experiences. But there is this theme of⁠—your intuition says, "This dummy's hot. He's convenient. He seems good to go, but this is not it. This is not it." But you're just like, "Hush. I'm not going to listen to that. There's something wrong about listening to that." And then you redirect your attention. Right?

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: This is the period of your life where you're meant to, instead, listen to your intuition and have boundaries in response to it. Do you still talk to your dad?

Torrey: Yes.

Jessica: Okay. Great. And you guys are cool, and you and your mom are cool?

Torrey: Yes.

Jessica: Okay.

Torrey: Close with both of them. Yeah.

Jessica: Congratulations. It's very lucky. And do you have siblings?

Torrey: I do. I have three sisters.

Jessica: Oh my God. That's so many sisters. Awesome. Okay. Cool. It's interesting because in your early developmental experiences⁠—again, I'm saying birth till seven years old⁠—it's not that things were bad. And I look at so many charts and so many people who had really bad situations. But it is that your dad's desires, his lifestyle, his opinions, his interests kind of pulled everything⁠—even if it pulled it in 50 directions, it kind of pulled everything. And your mom was down for the ride, but it looks like she was down for the ride because she made a decision to not listen to herself and to not let herself have boundaries. Does that make sense?

Torrey: Yeah. Interesting.

Jessica: And now, as an adult, you both do the exact same thing unintentionally. And also, you do the opposite. He'll say a thing. He'll do a thing, and you'll be like, "Fuck no. [indiscernible 00:26:34]." And you'll just snap back.

Torrey: Yes. Yes, 100 percent.

Jessica: Right. You're either/or. The move now is to really think about your intuition and boundaries. Again, I'm just going to link the two by saying it's okay to have boundaries in response to your intuitive take on the situation. You don't have to wait until someone breaks your toy to be like, "The way you're playing with my toy⁠—I can tell. My gut instinct tells me you're about to break my shit." You can say to somebody, "Hey, I need you to be mindful because that's just how I feel right now."

That kind of in-between of, "This is the line and you crossed it," and having no boundaries⁠—there's this⁠—a lot of space in between. And the way to hold that space is to give yourself permission to be as intuitive as you are and to listen to your intuition, to use your intuition as one of your many internal resources for discernment, which I'm guessing as an actor you do really just intuitively, because in a way, you're not being you. So [crosstalk]⁠—

Torrey: Right.

Jessica: ⁠—give yourself permission because it's not you, whereas if it's your very best friend or somebody you're dating or you want to be serious with, it just touches in on this part of you that had it modeled in your early development that this is nothing you should trust. This is an issue through your matrilineage. It's not just with your mom. It's your mom, your grandma, probably your great-grandma.

In order to have the only marriage that you will accept⁠—we're talking about a legal document or not⁠. The only marriage you will actually realistically accept is one in which you are an equal. But there's this way that, I would say, kind of subconsciously, you pull yourself down, especially at the beginning of relationships, and pull yourself⁠—and do you know what I mean by pulling yourself down?

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. So the guy you end up building a relationship with knows this version of you that is not the version of you that's going to marry anyone. It's not a version of you that you can sustain. It's the version of you that you're really habituated around being with people, and it works really well. Who doesn't like a girl who's chill? "What do you want? It's fine." You're fiery. You have huge preferences and all that kind of stuff, but you're, at the end of the day, really kind of adaptable, aren't you?

Torrey: Yes. Very.

Jessica: And I'm telling you to be less adaptable, especially⁠—

Torrey: Yeah. I always [crosstalk], "I'm down. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever you want. I don't care. If you want me to make a decision, I'll make a decision. If not, great. Let's go." I do a lot of that to make⁠—especially in the beginning of a relationship, to make someone comfortable.

Jessica: Yeah. And it works really well. Congratulations. But now they're comfortable, and⁠—

Torrey: And then I'm not.

Jessica: ⁠—you're not. And they don't really know you, and you don't really know them, because my theory is that you don't know a bitch until you've said no to them about something they wanted you to say yes. You don't know a person until you have a fight and it's your fault or it's their fault. And I think that so many of the things we do in order to have love actually stop us from really knowing people and letting them know us because we're scared of what the fuck will happen.

But here's the thing. This beautiful Sun/Venus conjunction in your birth chart is such a gift because it's a placement that indicates you love love; love loves you. You can be partnered if you want to be partnered and have a family because it's in the fourth house. So that's why you don't have a life partner. It's not because you can't have a life partner, like at all. That's not at all it. And I honestly don't think everyone gets a life partner or health or wealth. Life is a bitch, and that's real. But I do really believe that you can have what you want.

It will take more of you⁠—and this is where we get into the part of you that's your eighth-house stellium, your Moon/Pluto conjunction, your Mars/Saturn conjunction in Scorpio. You are really serious. All that Gemini is like, "Yeah, the world's ending, but we'll have fun while it does." But all that eighth-house stuff⁠—you are deeply affected by things, and you have, at times, a depressive state. So I'm not saying that you have clinical depression, but you can kind of get heavy with things.

Torrey: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica: And you need time alone. You love being social, but you really need time alone. And you need a man who you can be real with, who you can be like, "Everything's a fucking no. Why is the world tragic?" and have an actual conversation about it where he's not trying to placate you and make you feel better⁠—

Torrey: Right. Exactly.

Jessica: ⁠—because if your relationships are a performance, then you're fucking working.

Torrey: Yeah. Yes. That's definitely something I've not had in my adult years of a relationship, being able to say, "This is stressing me out about the world. This topic really stresses me out," with someone like, "Everything will be fine," or, "Don't think about it." I'm like, "How can you not think about it?" That drives me insane. I've never had a partner on that equal playing field of really kind of just giving a shit about the world. You know what I mean?

Jessica: Yes, I do.

Torrey: And so it makes me feel, when I talk about these things⁠—because I do think that I'm naturally a very fun-loving person, but these things do get me down. I do get very serious about them. And then it makes me feel like the wet rag in the relationship, so then I just drop it and talk to somebody else about it.

Jessica: For this reason, it's important in the first, I would say, three dates to talk about some world issue that you think is a real heartbreak and that you have real feelings about and ask him what he thinks, because if he doesn't have deep thoughts about it or feelings about it⁠—and some topics, you'll have more thoughts rather than feelings or whatever⁠—then he's not going to be your man, and you don't need to waste your time, because this part of you that is like⁠—this is an inherited issue through your matrilineage⁠—that's like, "Okay, the ways in which I am deep-feeling, the ways in which I am intuitive, the ways in which I am connected to the world and others⁠—I have to hide that from men or from partners."

And that just is never going to actually work. And because of how independent and precocious you are⁠—two very strong compliments from me⁠—you're not going to actually stay with the guy if he can't both run around and take a spontaneous trip and do weird shit together and have random conversations, and sit on the couch and actually be real about what's happening in this world and how you feel about it. Any guy who's like, "You're being a wet blanket," because of that is not your guy. It wouldn't be your bestie, and it wouldn't be your guy.

And there is a part of you that is like, "Well, okay. Now we're looking for a much thinner needle in a haystack." You only need the one is what I want to say. And I think part of what you've been looking for is not what you need.

Torrey: Right.

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Jessica: Do you date extroverts?

Torrey: I don't really know how to answer that because I definitely date the ones that come off very charismatic and everybody likes to be around them, but they definitely have a different side. And I think that's what kind of draws me, too, is I feel like I'm the one that gets that side. And so that kind of pulls me into it, and then if that side has any type of sadness or depression or anxiety, I feel like I can help. Do you know what I mean?

Jessica: Yes. Of course. Of course. Saturn/Mars conjunction⁠—you love to help. You've got an inner daddy, and he loves to take care of everybody.

Torrey: I'm glad you said that because I was thinking in my head⁠—I was like, "It's not a maternal thing."

Jessica: It's not.

Torrey: I've never been maternal with my boyfriends at all.

Jessica: No.

Torrey: It's more like I just⁠—yeah. [crosstalk]

Jessica: Yeah. You're like, "Let me provide for you. I can make a connection. I can find you the best doctor, best therapist. Let me tell you how to live your life." You're very⁠—you've got a good inner daddy. And it's not about gender. It's like what a daddy does, right? I think you need a guy who is more of what you need when you're in those heavy moods because there's no way you would choose a guy who can't keep up with you at least socially. But it's easy for you to pick a guy who can't keep up with you in terms of your capacity for empathy and emotion.

And you deserve the latter. And in fact, I would say, for you to coparent with somebody, you need the latter because coparenting is a very emotional job. And you want to make sure that you're more than activity partners, like he can mourn the world with you when the world requires mourning, which it does every day.

Torrey: Absolutely.

Jessica: I don't know that you're completely over⁠—you're completely over your ex, but I don't know that you're completely over the relationship, like who you were in the relationship. You know what I mean?

Torrey: Uh-huh. My most current ex?

Jessica: Yes. Yes.

Torrey: Yeah. It's funny you say that. I do have a lot of anger still surrounding that, I think, of things that I let go, things that⁠—you know what I mean⁠—that I didn't get a straight admission or apology for, things that I feel like I need to work through on my own. I don't really need him as part of the process. I know that.

Jessica: Agreed. Yeah.

Torrey: But yeah.

Jessica: It just means you're not likely to meet the perfect next guy because you're still sorting through who you were in that relationship and what you kind of consented to dealing with. I think that's a lot of what your anger is, is like he was who he was pretty much from day one. And I think you have not fully let yourself feel what you're feeling, so it's still there for you.

Now, that said, summertime⁠—I don't know why I'm being like a kitten running around.

Torrey: I like that, though.

Jessica: Summertime will be your time. So I think you just need a couple more months of sorting through the shit. I'm not saying don't date. If you meet someone date-worthy, do your worst. But I would say that this summer will be a great time for you to date. And my best advice is to really think about these things we've been talking about around your intuition. I really think, for you, having "controversial conversations" in the first three dates is going to save you a lot of fucking heartache because if he makes you feel like you're being too much, it doesn't matter how perfect he is across the board. He's not going to work.

That's, to me, just a boundary. We can look back at your mother and father and see this theme, eh?

Torrey: Yeah. Absolutely. Wow.

Jessica: This is one of the things that I think is so complex about astrology, is that it really doesn't show us our interconnection with our family lines. But in particular, the Pluto square that you're going through now, what it does is it dredges up all the shit from your childhood that you feel like you've already dealt with. Every single person who's ever gone through this transit is like, "I dealt with this already. Why is it coming back up?"

Torrey: Right. That's exactly how I feel.

Jessica: Yeah. And that's it. That's what it is. And the reason why it's coming back up is because it's like whatever tendrils are left, whatever pieces of it you weren't able to really cope with then but you are now, they just have to be dealt with. And so it's generally a really tumultuous time where you make changes to yourself that are really core. I think, for you, giving yourself space to have anger, to be down, is actually a big part of it because while you know how to give yourself space to feel those feelings alone⁠—like the doors are locked; no one else is in the house⁠—I think you've hidden it. I don't even know if you've had therapists⁠—I wonder if you've even kind of hidden it from therapists. It looks like you get real intense, eh?

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: I want to say that's healthy for you. Your capacity for love⁠—it's like fireworks. And your capacity for grief is like core of the earth. And I just feel like⁠—what's that expression? The brighter the light, the deeper the shadow. Instead of judging your difficult emotions, understand that it's part of an organic spectrum that is within you. You don't need to hide it from people. You do need to be able to take care of yourself, but part of taking care of yourself is having relationships where you can bring your real shit. And you have some of those with friends, eh?

Torrey: Yeah. I do.

Jessica: But are those friends not people that you talk to every day?

Torrey: I don't really talk⁠—I mean, I think I talk to my little sister or probably my mom every day⁠—more my little sister. But no. I don't really talk to anybody every day. I close⁠—not close off at all. I'm very receptive if anybody needs me. But I hate talking on the phone. Even if my friends come to visit me, the weekend is a perfect time. Otherwise, I start getting anxious because I need my space back, and it has nothing to do with them. It's just strictly⁠—I need to just sit with myself and be alone.

So yeah. A lot of my friends⁠—I've always said, to be in a really deep friendship with me, it's like knowing that sometimes⁠—unless it's like you really need me, I don't really talk to anybody every day.

Jessica: Okay. This is so important for you to say because why, then, would you want to be around a guy all the time?

Torrey: Yeah. You're not wrong.

Jessica: I mean, no, I'm not. So this doesn't mean you can't be partnered. It just means you need a house that's big enough where you don't have to interact with him. Again, we're back to separate bathrooms, separate kitchens. Did I say separate kitchens? I did.

Torrey: You did.

Jessica: I know it's very expensive, this life I'm creating for you. But I feel like with a chart like yours, having essentially a duplex with his and hers apartments is way better than a perfectly designed open-concept house. You need doors. Doors, locks. And I don't think that there's some romantic situation that's going to change that part of you, because there's nothing wrong with that part of you. It's just a part of you. And your job is to give yourself permission to embrace it and bring it in, to allow yourself to have it.

Because you're so close with your mom, I would encourage you to have conversations with her, if she's open to it, about this stuff, about what was going on at the beginning of her marriage. Would she talk to about it?

Torrey: Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica: It might jog some things because that's your early developmental experiences. The adults around us are always modeling for us what's possible, what's safe, what's unsafe. And your mom modeled for you that it wasn't safe to put her preferences first on a deep emotional level. And your dad modeled for you, "Be fun; keep going."

Torrey: Yeah.

Jessica: You know what I mean? And so, in a way, you really embody those models. And I think each child's job is to kind of break some of the generational curses or issues of the one before. So this is what's up for you. From my perspective, we've kind of hit the points that have been blocking you from getting the partnership that you want, that you think you want.

Torrey: Yeah. And, it makes sense. It all feels that way.

Jessica: So my question, then, is do you have any other questions for me? Is there anything else around this or on another topic that you want to make sure we look at?

Torrey: Because we talked about home⁠—I'm living out on my farm right now, and it is very isolated, which is great. But also, where I'm at in my life, too, I'm like, "I don't meet anybody, and I don't want to be on apps." I don't really know what I should do, like get a little apartment somewhere in a city? But then I don't really want to be going to two different places. That's a lot.

Jessica: It's the farm. Right now, it's the farm. I don't think it's going to be the farm by the summer. I think if you actually give yourself the gift of silence and recovery and sadness and sitting in your big "I don't knows," honestly, it's going to organically shift. This is such a challenging thing for you because you're like, "I make shit happen." And it is so hard to be like, "I'm just going to trust that it'll happen when it happens." Now, do you have a project that you're working on coming up?

Torrey: I do. I'm actually doing a TV movie in Greece. April 10th, I start.

Jessica: Okay. Great. And you start working on it in March? Do you start⁠—

Torrey: No. So March has been confusing for me. There's a part of me that's like, "Should I just stay at the farm? Should I rent an Airbnb in LA and be in LA for a month?" And I'm like "Why? I don't know. Maybe I'll be around more people." I'm normally very decisive, and I'm very indecisive right now about this.

Jessica: Yeah. Say your full name out loud again.

Torrey: Torrey Joël DeVitto.

Jessica: You're genuinely happy where you are.

Torrey: Yeah. I am.

Jessica: You do not need to go anywhere.

Torrey: Okay.

Jessica: Unless an opportunity pulls you.

Torrey: Okay.

Jessica: I think it's time for you to get a little woo⁠—or a little more woo, rather⁠—and say to the Universe, "Lady, if you want me to go somewhere, tell me where to go clearly. Otherwise, I'm going to trust that I feel nourished here," because what I'm seeing is you feel nourished but restless. So you're like, "Is this nourishment going to make me stronger, or am I losing my edge? Am I not doing what I'm supposed to be doing?" Right?

Torrey: Right. Mm-hmm.

Jessica: So this April thing is going to just be exciting and fun and a lot, right? It's everything you want it to be. It's interesting. Your life is giving you the exact spaciousness you need, and instead of tapping in and being like, "Oh. I need spaciousness. I also need to know that I'm not going to be stuck here"⁠—so you have exactly that. You have a couple months to just be in comfort and safety, and then you know you're traveling, and you know you're working, and you know you're meeting more people.

And what you're not doing is trusting it, because what I'm actually seeing⁠—move through the Gemini energy. It's not indecision. It's restlessness. And you're interpreting your restlessness as indecision. But what your restlessness is is this. When you sit alone in the farmhouse, you're not technically consistently happy happy. You're happy overall, but you're feeling sad feelings. You're having not a mental health crisis, but a crisis of consciousness. And it's scary, and it's hard to choose it when you know you could just fly to LA and have a million distractions that the world would tell you are really great things for you to have. But you don't need it.

What you actually need is to figure out how to stay in these emotions⁠—not all the damn time, but we're not talking about all the time. We're talking like a month.

Torrey: Right. Yeah.

Jessica: And the thing about this is it gives you time to sort through that last relationship, so the next time you're in LA or in town where there is more likely to be people, not goats⁠—I'm assuming there's goats on your farm. I don't know why. Maybe it's a fantasy. But I think you'll be ready. And I do see you getting ready. I do see you doing the work. It's just this restlessness that you have has led you to so many gorgeous things in your life, and so it's tempting to trust it all the time. But it's not always reliable.

I could be talking to your dad right now. I think the same thing is true for both of you. But when I look at this for you, it's like your restlessness has brought you to some of your most dynamic, exciting experiences. It's opened the world up for you in a million ways. But it's also kept you from this heavier eighth-house part of you. It's kept you from the part of you that feels really deeply about a million things.

Torrey: Because it's like I'm crawling through those things rather than sitting in them and then moving.

Jessica: Yep. Yep. And we can look at your dad to see how that has not worked for him as he's aged. The beautiful part about that is he's proof that doesn't age well. It gives you a great youth, but it doesn't age well. Then the question becomes, can you give yourself permission to be at the right age to be tapping in and accepting these parts of yourself? And this is where, as soon as I said that, energetically I saw the little Whac-A-Mole jump up of, "But what about kids?" So you go straight to that is what it looks like.

And the Whac-A-Mole of having kids is true. The concern that you have around, "I want to have kids. I don't want to miss the time," is real. But it's also more of a thought than a feeling. It's a panic feeling. But when you really tap in, you're just not ready in this moment. And that is what you need to trust. And that, at the end of the day, is what you tend to trust.

Torrey: That's interesting. Yeah. I've felt that. But I think the age has always been like, "Well, that can't be the truth, because you know how badly you want kids, and you're getting older. So you can't have that it's not the time right now be the truth."

Jessica: Yeah. I hear you. And also, eh. I don't know. Most of my friends who have had kids had them in their 40s. Pros and cons. Having kids is a 20-year-old's game because it's very difficult on the body. And also, your path is your path. And it can be no other way. A Mars/Saturn conjunction in the eighth house will often give us the acceptance of self a little later in life. And that North Node conjunct your IC⁠—we tend to come into embodiment of our North Node at around 40 years old.

What this all adds up to mean in more plain English is, if you had come in at the age of 28 and done what you would have done to any astrologer at 28, which is, "I know I want kids. When am I having kids? Don't tell me it's 32"⁠—you would have been like, "It can't be that late. I have to do it. I know I'm doing it"⁠—I would have had a hard time because it looks like 38 and older in your chart. For whatever fucking reason, you are in your late 30s in 2023, where there are a lot of options.

Torrey: Yes, there are.

Jessica: This isn't the '70s. This isn't even the '90s. It's fucking 2023.

Torrey: So true.

Jessica: And you have a lot of options. You don't need to do this before you're ready just because you may not have options later. If for some reason you don't have options later, it will probably be for the best that you also don't have a child yet, because those options would be⁠—what⁠—it's not possible in the U.S. anymore? Scary. What could the options possibly be? And at the end of the day, I want to just remind you who you are. You are somebody who, if you wake up and you're 52 years old and you're like, "Wait a minute. This is the fucking moment," you will foster. You will adopt. You will do whatever you need to do. You'll get a surrogate.

You'll do what you need to do because that's the person you are. When you know it's a yes, you make it happen. And you haven't known it was a yes, which is why you haven't made it happen. And as much as you really deeply crave partnership and home with someone, you also don't crave those things at all. You crave solitude and independence, which is why you've had it and not had it, which doesn't mean hurry up and change what you want; it means, look, you're somebody who knows how to manifest what you want. If you take better care of yourself so that you can want a relationship that'll actually work for you, then you'll manifest it.

Torrey: Wow. That's beautiful. And it feels good. Do you know what I mean?

Jessica: Yeah. I do.

Torrey: It really resonates, like a lot.

Jessica: You don't know this about me, but I'm constantly checking my tarot cards, thinking like, "Will she get into a relationship? Will it happen?" First, the cards were like, "We'll see. Boundaries." And then we had a big conversation about boundaries, and the cards were like, "Fuck yeah. Yes."

Torrey: I appreciate this so much, honestly. It was really beautiful. Everything felt really right⁠—

Jessica: Thank you.

Torrey: ⁠—and really like it hit. Thank you so much, Jessica. It was so nice speaking with you.

Jessica: My pleasure.