Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I will be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica: So, Anna, welcome to the podcast. What would you like to ask me about today?

Anna: Yeah. So I have a question about spiritual cultish groups. Pre-COVID, I was a part of a spiritual group that practiced Reiki, psychic development, sound healing, and it was my first intro into those types of topics. And it was led by a healer/psychic. I confided a lot in this person and felt really just seen and heard. And in hindsight, I'm afraid I was outsourcing my power and made a lot of really big decisions against my better judgment.

And I now realize that that's not the first time I've found myself in a part of just cultish groups in general and fitness, wellness, even in careers. So I just want to know, why do I keep finding myself in these situations, and how do I be a part of communities without falling into some kind of groupthink or just giving my power away?

Jessica: This is a very good question, and I'm sorry that that happened. When you left the group, was it hard to leave, or were you just like, "I'm done with this," and you walked away and you weren't chased or anything by them?

Anna: Yeah. I think I was lucky in the fact that COVID kind of dispersed it, and so it created that separation where I had a lot of time on my own to reflect, and I wasn't a part of that group every week. So it was a physical separation, really.

Jessica: I see. Okay, because you were meeting in person.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Okay. So I should share you were born January 26th, 1996, 11:02 a.m. in the big city of Laurel, Maryland. When I first read your question, I was like, "What is Neptune doing to you and why?" or, "What is Pisces doing to you and why?" The reason why those were my first thoughts is because Neptune and Pisces in our chart often can make us feel like there is a magic answer to complex questions, and that magic answer is somehow pure and it is clean, whether it's ethically clean, spiritually clean. Maybe for you, it's around health and fitness clean.

There's something about Neptune that can go in that direction. Neptune also governs cults, and it governs cults for that reason because there's this feeling of, like, "I want to let go of control, and I want to find the purest, most beautiful answer." Unfortunately, in the world that we live in, there are way too many people, many of whom are intentionally being manipulative, many of whom are themselves somewhat deluded, who are like, "I have the answer. I'm going to tell you exactly what you can do, and it's so simple, and you're going to feel so much better. All you have to do is follow these steps."

It generally includes giving things up. So you mentioned Reiki healing and psychic stuff. I'm guessing that this woman or this group kind of required you to let go of habits, things, people⁠—something. Is that right?

Anna: Yes. Definitely.

Jessica: Yeah. And what was it? What were you supposed to let go of?

Anna: Well, I would say that it definitely framed relationships in a way of letting go of people, family, jobs, career paths. So I would go and ask questions about an idea of I wanted to head in this direction with a career, and it was like letting go of those ideas and kind of the life I planned for myself.

Jessica: I'm sorry. With a little bit of hindsight, does it feel like it was good advice? I'm getting the idea that it does not.

Anna: Yeah, no. It's not really that great.

Jessica: Yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. We're going to unpack this as we go. There is this part of you⁠—because Neptune sits on top of your Mercury conjunct Uranus. You've also got Venus and Saturn in Pisces in the twelfth house. Because of these things in your nature, there is a part of you, against all your better judgment⁠—because you do have Mercury in Capricorn. You are a Moon in Aries. You do have a Taurus Rising. You're an Aquarius. There's a lot about you that's very critical and analytic, and you're a pragmatist. But those parts of you that are pragmatic and analytic are also able to see what's wrong, all the things that could go wrong in the world, with your job, in a relationship. And it is really hard to psychologically and emotionally process that.

And so, then, in comes Neptune. And Neptune's whispering in your ear all the fucking time, "Hey. Maybe there's a simple answer. Maybe if you wiggle your nose and kiss your toes, then everything will just be right." And there's always going to be someone who's giving you that perfect spiritual answer, unfortunately. I do think you are somebody who has to be mindful of cultiness. For you, the kind of gateway drug feeling, if you will, is always, "I am looking for a simple answer that will make me feel good." I know that that's a really annoying thing for me to say because, of course, we all want a simple answer that will make us feel good.

But what I want to kind of ground is it's not like there aren't simple answers that make us feel good in a moment, in a situation. But as far as a life path goes, life is more complex than that for those of us not living on an ashram or something. If you're living in circumstances that are set up to insulate you, sure, you can be perfect in your ideals. But realistically, you've got to engage with the world. And for you, the parts of you that are very aware of that and very down to do that can also be kind of hard.

Mercury in Capricorn⁠—it's a placement where you're a pragmatic thinker. You're a realist. You're always scanning for what could go wrong. And your thinking can be highly attuned to failure, like a fear of failure or pitfalls all around it. And then, on top of it, in your birth chart you have Mercury square to the Moon. When you're feeling your feelings, your brain is just, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." It's going, going, going. And when you're analytically processing, it makes you really emotional.

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: Sorry, because that is hard. I think it's one of the harder aspects between Mercury and the Moon because they say, "Mental and emotional health"⁠—people talk about those two things as though they are inseparable. They're actually not inseparable for all people. They're very hard for you to parse apart, though. When you meet someone like this person⁠—and it sounds like she's just one example⁠—who's offering you a one-stop shop where you just have to let something go⁠—Neptune⁠—so that you can kind of be more pure⁠—again, Neptune⁠—that, for you, is always something to be incredibly guarded around. I'm sorry.

Anna: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense.

Jessica: Yeah. It's super annoying, though. It's super annoying. You mentioned that this has happened before. How has this happened before?

Anna: I would say just in different contexts, like for example in fitness. I used to be a personal trainer. And I definitely found myself completely entrenched in that culture and was being trained by somebody who mentored me, in a way, but I realized later it was very controlling and manipulative. So it was the same thing. It's like a mentor figure that I feel like has all these good intentions but is maybe⁠—the intentions are in their favor and not mine, in hindsight.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. In your chart, you've got this Venus/Saturn conjunction. It is wide, but I'm going to say you've got a Venus/Saturn conjunction. And that gives you an inclination to want your relationships to have clear rules. That is comforting for you, in part because when you get intimate with someone, you're like, "I'm supposed to give them everything, right? I'm supposed to give them every single part of me, right?" And then, when you do that, you're like, "Oh, wait, wait, wait. I'm a fucking Aquarius. I can't give them everything. That doesn't work." And so you can really pull back and shut down.

Anna: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Jessica: Yeah. Sorry/yay/boo. There's good and bad in it, right?

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: When you find a mentor, somebody who wants to take on the role of, "Let me be your shepherd. Let me show you the way," there's something, regardless of the content of whatever it is they're trying to teach you⁠—there's something that's so nice to you about it because it's a role. They have a role. They know something. They're wise. They're going to share it with you. They're generous. And you have a role. You're going to listen⁠—not be obedient, but really take on the lessons like a good Capricorn/Mercury person, like a good Saturn/Venus person. You like the clarity of that role. So, at first, to a certain extent, regardless of what they're selling, you're buying because it's soothing to you to have that kind of relationship in your life.

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: This is where you're in trouble, though. In your birth chart, you have the North Node in Libra. And what this means is that you have come here on a soul level to learn how to share yourself with other people. When you're in these relationships where the role is they know stuff/you learn it, you're never really sharing of yourself with that person. In fact, you're not supposed to get to know that person, and they're not really supposed to get to know you. There's kind of this assumption that they already get you from the beginning.

Anna: Yes. I always feel that way. I'm like, "Oh, they just get me." I feel like they know who I am, but that's not always the case.

Jessica: It's probably absolutely never the case. They do not get you. They're just good at selling you on them getting you. And any person who's going to be like, "I get you," without asking you questions and engaging you, I would say this is where you want to be cautious. This is where you want to put on your critical thinking cap because there is this part of you⁠—and it is really a deep, kind of reflexive part of you⁠—that doesn't want to have to work on relationships at all.

Because of that, these relationships that are so structured, that are really based in fantasy and not reality⁠—from day one, they're comfortable, they're intimate, and there is potential for long term so you don't have to worry about maintaining them⁠—that, for you, is just like, "Oh, okay, I can relax. I don't have to work so hard," whereas if you met someone at the exact same gym who's like, "Let's be friends," it would be so much effort for you to be like, "Do I actually want to talk to this person? Do I want to do all the work to get to know them?" You're very hot and cold with small talk. And do you have long-term friendships?

Anna: I don't have a lot of really close friends. I will say that. That's why I seek community so much, is because I do feel lonely sometimes. But I don't ever feel like I really click that well with anybody unless it's that intense, domineering thing.

Jessica: Right. It's like a fate click. And do you tend to date? Are you in relationships often?

Anna: No. I dated in my early 20s, but I haven't dated since the pandemic.

Jessica: It's a long time, but also, I don't know⁠—how do you put your face near someone's face during an airborne "Breathe on me, and it could be tragedy for the rest of my life" pandemic? So I'm not going to critique that, personally. I feel like that's good on you. But I do want to say this. You're an Aquarius. You got Sun and Mars both in Aquarius. You like your fucking space. You like your own head. It is a very comfortable place for you. You are somebody who can be very annoyed by people, plus you got that Aries Moon, my friend. It's in the twelfth house, but it's sitting right on your Rise. And so people actually annoy you. You don't always have patience for people.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely right. 

Jessica: Yeah. I'm sorry. Also, well learned. People can be annoying. That is real. And also, because of that fucking Neptune thing, because of the Saturn/Venus, you have Disney princess problems. You want the perfect person. What's the right gender for who you date? Boys, girls, theys, thems?

Anna: Males.

Jessica: Males. Okay. So there is this very real part of you that's like, "The perfect boy will just come upon⁠—he will walk upon my path. I will be living my life, and he will come across my path. And then we'll have this moment, and it'll be magical. And then we'll just know each other. We'll get each other. We'll fall in love, and that will be the story. And then, when we kiss, my foot pops up." You know how the Disney princess, her foot always pops up when she's in love? Bada-bing, bada-boom. Happy lady.

And you have similar fantasies about friends, like, "I will meet this person that we're going to be friends, and we'll just fucking click. And we'll just have things to talk about, and trust will be there. And she'll get me, and I'll get her." The problem is real relationships do not actually work like that. Every once in a while, they do, but that's just like having your retirement plan being winning a lottery⁠—maybe. Also, very likely, maybe not.

I don't want to rob you of your idealism and your romantic nature. But I do want to say that, in a way, you are unconsciously robbing yourself of it because you're applying it to people who are trying to essentially sell you something, whether they're trying to sell you a program or whatever. But also, they're trying to sell you on their self-image instead of getting to know people and then being generous with your take on them, which is not really how you do is my guess.

Anna: No.

Jessica: No.

Anna: Yeah. That's true.

Jessica: I have really annoying news. What you really need to do is to figure out how to date⁠—not be in a relationship⁠—and have pals, not have friends, not because I think you should date forever and only have pals, but because step 1 generally comes before step 3. Let me ask you, what comes up around that, if anything?

Anna: Yeah. I just am thinking a lot about that. It's like, do I know what that in-between is? It's almost like a boundaries thing, like I don't know how to dip my toe into a friendship or acquaintances. I just think I need to learn how to do that. That's what comes up.

Jessica: Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it because you know what? You're not alone. This is not the 20th time I've had this conversation. I have had it many times. You're not alone. If you think about the bulk of human history, we were friends with and dated the people in our immediate community. It is a very modern new thing in human development that we have the world of options and the world of distractions. So it's not bananas that you're like, "I have no idea how to do that." And you like writing lists, right? Mercury and Capricorn. You like a list?

Anna: Big lister. Yes.

Jessica: Yay. Okay. Good. Wherever you start this list, I think there should be a version of it on the notes of your phone so that you can easily be chatting with someone and then hop in the bathroom and then look at your fucking notes to remind you. Okay? You're going to want to return to these notes. It is not a cheat sheet, because there's nothing cheating here, but we can call it a cheat sheet because it's⁠—whatever. It's a convention to use that term, but it's not a cheat is what I want to say.

Here is my advice. You're going to make a list. Start with a list that you know. What is a bestie? As a Capricorn myself, I like to work with what I call R&R, which is not rest and relaxation, because that's for much more relaxed people than me. It's rights and responsibilities. So you make two lists for bestie. What are the rights of a bestie? What does a bestie get from you? Honesty. You show up for them⁠—whatever. It doesn't have to be a long list, but it can be a very long list if you've got it in you. So what is it that your bestie gets from you?

Now, what are the responsibilities to you? If they're your bestie, what are the characteristics of a bestie? I would start with a bestie because I think you have a very good fantasy going of what a best friend is.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica: I've got two more lists. Do them whatever order seems most viable. And if this takes you months to do, that's fine because it's such a simple bit of homework, but it's emotional. So it's weirdly hard to do. The next two kinds of friends are friends and pals, two different categories. So there's the bestie. That's somebody who you've been through some shit. You have had highs and lows, potentially, so there's been opportunities to develop trust. So maybe you had highs and lows in the relationship, or maybe it's like they were there for you through some shit, and then you were there for them through some shit, right? Highs and lows.

Best friend⁠—it's like you have to earn it. You've got to get there. But a friend is somebody that you can rely⁠—it's like a similar thing; it's just the volume isn't turned all the way up.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica: So you're going to do your rights and responsibilities, your R&R lists, for the friend and for the best friend. And then we're going to go to pal. Part of what fucks you up here, too, is that there's this part of you that's like, "What's the point? What is the point of this?" You're like, "If I don't know this person, if I don't trust this person, if this is awkward, to what end?" And you kind of shut down. Your Aries Moon takes over and is like, "We're out." 

Listen. You don't like to think of yourself as a judgy person. You really do not like to think of yourself as a judgy person. Also, you can be very judgy.

Anna: Mm-hmm. I have a lot of opinions.

Jessica: Yeah. I respect you. Listen. You have got Pluto in the seventh house, and it's sextile to your Sun. It means a lot of things, but in the midst of it is that you have very strong impressions on people. If you had a little more emotional elasticity, if you had better boundaries, then you'd be like, "Oh, this person seems incredibly insecure in this situation, and I find that to be a little off-putting. Okay. Let's see what else I get to know," instead of, "And I find that off-putting. I'm walking away now," which is kind of what you do because when people annoy you when you're first getting to know them or disappoint you or aren't very interesting to you, it makes the Disney Princess in you cry. And then she falls into a deep slumber. Literally, it seems like that is what happens for you. It's just like you feel it shouldn't be so hard at the beginning, when it's actually the time when it is the hardest. Right?

Anna: Mm-hmm. Totally.

Jessica: Besties shouldn't be that hard, but pals? It takes a while to get to know someone. And most people absolutely, 100 percent, including you⁠, are not themselves when you first get to know them.

Anna: Totally.

Jessica: You are not yourself when you get to know people. What are some characteristics of a pal? It is somebody who you can have verbal exchanges with that are interesting enough. Enough. Are you pre-bored? Are you pre-annoyed by that?

Anna: I can tell that I'm bored with it, but I can understand where the benefit is.

Jessica: Yeah. Can you think of anyone right now who maybe you work with or you just know who's kind of a pal?

Anna: I can think of a coworker that I would say is a pal.

Jessica: What's their name?

Anna: Her name's [redacted].

Jessica: Is she married?

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: And you find that annoying, the way she talks about her family life?

Anna: Yeah. I just don't resonate.

Jessica: Yeah. It's not just that she has those experiences. It's the way she talks about them where you're just like, "Girl, you're just like⁠—I don't know who you think you're talking to," is what it feels like.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica: Yeah. So there's a couple things going on. She has this idea about how you're supposed to interact at work. So she's chatty, and then she stops. Is that right? Am I seeing that correctly?

Anna: 100 percent.

Jessica: Yeah. You're just like, "Could we have more of a flow here?" She talks too much for you sometimes and then is inaccessible other times.

Anna: Yeah. And I feel judged sometimes.

Jessica: You're both judging each other, so that's true. It wouldn't be fair to say she's judging you, because of how much you judge her, if I'm being honest. Is that not true, though?

Anna: It probably is. I don't think I know how much I judge because I think my internal critic of myself and others is so much that I think it's normal.

Jessica: Right, because if you're being super mean to yourself, it doesn't seem like you're being mean to other people.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Okay. That's fair. Not ideal, but fair. There are times when you're talking to this person, and you genuinely enjoy it. It's not when she's talking about her family. There is that. I think it's valuable for you to think about why it bugs you because some of it's just like it's not your life; I'm seeing some of it is because it's too personal. Some of the things she shares with you, you're just like, "Hold your horses, Nellie. What is that?" And then some of it is⁠⁠—she seems basic to you.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely. It's too much information, and it's very superficial at times.

Jessica: It's two things you deeply dislike. It's too superficial, but also, she's trusting you with too much at the same time. It's a terrible combo platter. I don't know that she has enough people to talk to. Does that make sense to you?

Anna: Yeah. It does. I think people confide in me for some reason.

Jessica: Yeah, because you listen. You don't talk a lot.

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: So people are like, "Oh. You won't interrupt me? You won't stop me? I will keep going. Thank you," and they just think you're a great listener, when you're starting off as a great listener but then waiting for it to end. Now, I want to just take a pause and pull back and say you did the exact same things with what we are calling your culty crush types where you listen. You retain. But it's your role. And because it's your role, part of what they do is engage you on purpose about how you're receiving the information.

This is part of why you have a pull towards these culty people. They don't actually challenge or push you to be different in this particular way. Now, with this person at work⁠—say her name one more time because I got her, but it's like I'm seeing her through your eyes, so it's very hard for me to change my opinion here. Hold on. Say her name again.

Anna: Her name's [redacted].

Jessica: Thank you. But you do actually like chatting with her about stupid stuff.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: I'm seeing magazines. Do you talk to her about celebrity bullshit or TV or something like that?

Anna: Yeah. Shows, pop culture.

Jessica: And you actually enjoy talking to her about pop culture, right?

Anna: Yeah. I think it's less deep.

Jessica: Right. It is on you when she starts talking about her family⁠, if you're not trying to be deep friends with her and you're not trying to be super annoyed with her, to be like, "Oh my God. That's really interesting. That reminds me of this thing I saw," and just shift the conversation back to pop culture so that you can have a relationship with this person that you actually enjoy. Does that make sense?

Anna: Yeah. It does make sense.

Jessica: Finding a way to verbally articulate what you're willing to talk about, and that doesn't have to be like, "Hey, coworker. Let me tell you I really don't want to hear about your family life. Or if I hear about it, I need you to talk about it for under four minutes the whole time." You can't really do that because we can't process with people we don't trust. That makes no sense. But you can redirect. There are ways of redirecting that are graceful.

And so, if she's talking about her kid or her husband, you can be like, "I saw an episode of blah-blah show, and your husband's really reminding me of this guy. By the way, did you hear that the actor who plays this guy wears a toupee?" I'm just making shit up. It might mean that you need to know a little bit more about pop culture than you do. I don't know how much you stay on top of things. But it's a direction, is basically what I'm pointing you in. Does this make sense?

Anna: Yeah. It does.

Jessica: You have another pal-ish person in your life?

Anna: I could say another person, but she might be a friend.

Jessica: Okay. Good. Perfect. Then give me their name.

Anna: Her name's [redacted].

Jessica: You're right. I don't know if she's a new friend or⁠—if there's a scale, let's say from one to ten⁠—ten is like, "You're right on the verge of being my bestie." She's probably at a three. She's like an early-stages friend.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: We could pop her back to pal without too much drama.

Anna: True.

Jessica: But she's pretty far from bestie. And I will say that there is nothing wrong with you using that idea of, "On a scale from one to ten, where are they in this category?"⁠—not so you're rating people. It's so that you're locating your own feelings of safety and connection with people, which I actually think is not a skill you've developed.

Anna: Totally.

Jessica: So say her name again.

Anna: [redacted]

Jessica: You haven't let her get to know you.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Do you want to let her get to know you?

Anna: Yeah⁠—well, something I've almost said this whole time, and it feels relevant, is that my best friend that was my bestie, like literal bestie, she actually died. And I think that has caused a confusion for me of, "What is a friend? What is a pal?" because for me, when I did meet her, it was that Disney princess. I already knew her. It was immediate. So I think, for some reason, there might be a block of maybe I don't want people to get to know me since she has passed. I don't know if that could be⁠—

Jessica: Oh. I'm really sorry for your loss, first of all.

Anna: Thank you.

Jessica: I'm really sorry. And did you get to know her when you were in school?

Anna: My bestie?

Jessica: Yeah.

Anna: My best friend? Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Was it high school or college?

Anna: Actually, it was elementary. It was, like⁠—

Jessica: Elementary. Yeah.

Anna: ⁠—long time.

Jessica: Yeah, because that's what happens when you're a kid. The older you get, the less likely that is to happen, simply because you have too many experiences. In elementary school, yeah, someone can know you. You've been alive for seven years. Even when you're 19, being alive for 19 years means you've been having something in the family of adult experiences for, what, five? Four? Six, maybe? Depending. But now you're older, so it's less likely. And the older you get, the lesser likelier it is.

So there is that. But I think a big part of what you're saying is that you haven't developed friends in adult milieus, which⁠—again, you are not alone. It's so hard to do.

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Jessica: Okay. I'm going to sneak-attack you if you're okay with that.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Do you mind if I check in with your friend who's passed away?

Anna: No, absolutely.

Jessica: What's her name?

Anna: [redacted]

Jessica: And it was sudden?

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: I'm sorry. You have somebody else who's close to you who passed away as well?

Anna: My grandfather.

Jessica: Were you really close with him?

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: You look like him.

Anna: Yeah. Isn't that weird?

Jessica: Like, the shape of your face. Yeah. You look so much like your grandfather. Super weird. Okay. Is that your mom's dad?

Anna: Yeah. Actually, she was adopted, though, so it's her dad.

Jessica: Her dad. Not her biological father, though?

Anna: No.

Jessica: You look just like him. That's so weird.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Wow. He's actually coming through first to be like, "I don't know about this digging around in your psyche thing." He is very protective, and he's very like, "Let's see about talking to"⁠—me, basically. He's being very protective. Is that how he was?

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: Okay. Sorry. Also, good. That's nice. But it makes sense. You've got this guy who took care of you, who loved you, and he's like, "Yeah, don't talk to fucking strangers." So, straight out the gate, we got some information. Stranger danger.

Anna: Interesting.

Jessica: Yeah, and not stranger danger like we talked about in the '80s, but actual, like⁠—your grandfather believes that everyone who's not family is somehow dangerous on some level.

Anna: Mm-hmm. That's a family thing.

Jessica: Yeah. Okay. I can also see your bestie is actually not coming through all the way, but what she is showing me is that it was the two of you against the world always. You were like that bestie couple that was inseparable, and other people could try to be friends with the two of you, but it was the two of you. Am I seeing that right?

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. That's like the Disney princess shit. That's like, "I met my prince, and we're done. Work's over." You can imagine the best is the rest. From the perspective of your grandfather and your family at-large, do you agree with them? If you're not part of the inner circle, you don't belong anywhere near us?

Anna: I don't agree with that. No.

Jessica: Okay, because I think you're operating off of that still, even though you don't really believe it. And this is part of being pre-Saturn Return, which you are. You're going to have your Saturn Return in a couple years, and so you are inevitably going through the "Oh fuck. I have to change this really deeply held belief that I don't agree with at all" period leading up to the Saturn Return.

The homework I would give you around this⁠—and this, in general, is a good way to prepare for the Saturn Return when you're in that two-year lead-up to it⁠—is to just notice whenever that comes up. You know the feeling. You know what I'm talking about, eh?

Anna: Yeah. I do know what you're talking about.

Jessica: So just notice it. And a good thing to do when you notice it is, on a scale from one to five or one to ten, whatever is easier for your brain, rate it. "Okay. Fuck. This is a ten. This feeling is at 100 percent right now. Okay. Duly noted," or, "This is showing up as a three. I feel it. I am aware it's there, but it's not driving me." Okay? And the reason why rating things in this way is helpful is because it gives your brain a sense of separation. "I am not this belief. This is not the inalienable truth. This is a habit. This is a belief system that is really a habit that I've held on to. It's not something I actually want to identify with."

Anna: Yeah. It is habitual, definitely.

Jessica: Yeah. Looking at your grandfather, it is⁠—whoa⁠—a deep habit in your family⁠—he doesn't want me to talk to your best friend kind of habit. He's just protecting you. It's not that he doesn't want you to talk to your best friend; it's that he doesn't want me to talk to your best friend. This habit of yours and these feelings, thoughts, behaviors of yours are not actually as a result of your bestie's passing. What I am seeing really clearly is you were like this before, plus you had a bestie.

Anna: Got it.

Jessica: And then part of me is like⁠—I want to call her in and check in with her. But I will say she is not present in the same way your grandfather is, so I would have to pull her in, which means nothing bad about where she's at at all. It just⁠—

Anna: Yeah. That's what I was wondering.

Jessica: No, not at all.

Anna: I was like, "Is she good over there?"

Jessica: Yeah. Not anything negative at all. And I would have to pull her in to know, is that because she's evolved in such a way that she's just further from us? Which is only a good thing⁠—for her, not for us, but for her. Or is it because she's not trying to derail this conversation? Because it would derail the conversation, to be fair. I feel like this person is your sister, like she knows you backwards and forwards, and she knows all your tricks, and she's just very loyal to you. So I could see her not wanting to make this a different kind of conversation then it needs to be, because you do need friends.

And we're not focusing on dating because we kind of don't have to be, because if you're going to date a guy, he should also be your friend. So this pals thing is directly related to dating, like going on the first⁠—I don't know⁠—seven, nine dates, because a man is stranger danger until you get to know him, not until he tricks you into feeling a certain way for five minutes. Right? Do you want to be in a relationship?

Anna: I do. I think I'm scared, but I think I want to be.

Jessica: Yeah. I agree with both of those statements. You are scared, and you do want to be. There's some wisdom in your fear because you don't know how to have boundaries with people. And the reason why you don't know how to have boundaries with people is because you lose track of who you are and what you're feeling when you're around other people, and so you either shut down or shut them out, or you just kind of give everything away.

We've established that the way that you've given everything away has, so far, mainly shown up in these culty dynamics, whether they're culty friend groups or with a culty leader. But it could just as easily happen with a boyfriend or with a bestie, right? You are not doomed to have this pattern play out for the rest of your life. I just want to be emphatic about that. You're not doomed here. This is a bunch of habits that have kind of made you, unfortunately, pretty vulnerable to this dynamic, but you change the habits, and then everything else changes, too.

This is why the focusing on learning how to go on dates with strangers or have social interactions with pals that are not people you're letting in as friends⁠—or they just haven't gotten there yet. Maybe they're on the path to potential friendship, and we're not sure if we're hiring them for the position yet. This is a really important skill, and it requires that you offer a little bit more of yourself in interactions, which is not just about sharing. It's also about directing conversations when they get stupid and annoying to you, not just letting people bug you, but being like, "Look over there. Was that a cat?" It doesn't have to be a big, dramatic thing to redirect a conversation. Sometimes it's literally just changing the subject in a pleasant way, in a sociable way.

Within that, I think there needs to be some acceptance that people are exhausting for you. You really do want the bestie. You really do want a couple of friends that you can connect with one to three times a month. You don't need all the people of the world. I do see that you like being a part of communities or groups where you can come together and you're all on the bike together. Are you a fitness cycle person?

Anna: Yeah. Hiking, that kind of thing.

Jessica: Okay. So having those kinds of groups, I think, is really great for you as long as there's not a charismatic leader involved.

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: That's the key for you, so that you go and you chitchat, and it's fine. It's super fine. Sometimes it's really fun and lovely, and sometimes it's a little annoying. And so it evens out to a delightful fine. And then you got your, hopefully, partner one day⁠—bestie. Here's the thing about the partner. The romantic Disney princess part of you wants to merge. You want to fall in love, and then you move in together, and it's so easy, and you have the same stuff. "Oh my God. We have two of the same couch. What are we going to do?" It's a hijinks, right? There is this part of you that wants that kind of⁠—what is it⁠—Hallmark movie.

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: You really do. I'm so sorry because every other part of you thinks that's ridiculous and would hate that. You would hate that. So this is where it gets complicated because the reality of who you are is that you need a lot of space. You need a lot of autonomy and independence. The reality of who you are is if somebody tries to force you to process before you're ready, you will shut down forevermore. You can wait anyone out is what it looks like.

Anna: Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. You're tough, a tough cookie. So what that boils down to is boundaries, is being able to express to people in the early stages of dating⁠—so after you've been on three to six dates, depending on how things shake down⁠—"Hey, I'm really independent. I like spending a lot of time alone. So, just so you know, if things go really well, I'm still going to be really independent and like spending a lot of time alone." Yeah. Just make an offhand comment. And if he gets offended by that, he's not for you. And if he's like, "Oh. Okay. Interesting/weird/cool"⁠—whatever⁠—great. You can proceed.

The key is to not pretend that you're somebody who can just merge with a partner, because you're not so much that person. Does this make sense?

Anna: Yeah. It helps.

Jessica: The fact that you're dealing with all this stuff is right on time. The fact that we're having this conversation is right on time because, again, you're prepping for that Saturn Return to release these unconscious habits and attitudes about relationships and about yourself so that you can actually start to have boundaries. This is exactly what you're meant to be dealing with at exactly this time. And it's likely to be pretty challenging for you because Pluto is forming a square to your Moon, which we haven't been talking about specifically in this reading, but we've been talking about specifically in this reading. It's about you showing up for yourself emotionally, and that means with others, sharing a little bit more of yourself. This is very challenging for you.

Anna: Yeah. It is.

Jessica: Yeah. It's the right work. And again, when people have pre-prescribed roles, you find that to be the easiest time to do it, if it's proven to not be the healthiest time to do it. But you feel like it's the easiest in the short term. And what that tells you is free-frame is intimidating to you. If I give you something to color in the lines, you could do that. But then, if I'm like, "Here's a piece of paper. Here are markers," you're just like, "I don't know where to begin." I'm speaking, of course, metaphorically about your relationships.

If this feels right, as you sit with this conversation, having that self-awareness can help you to have empathy for yourself of, like, "Oh. Okay. I don't really know what kind of a dynamic I want with my coworker friend. I don't actually have a clear idea. And that's part of why I'm not having boundaries with this person and why I'm 50 percent of the time liking her and 50 percent of the time annoyed by her: because I don't even know what I expect or what I'm offering here."

For that relationship specifically, I would throw this idea into the ring. You want to have the work friend. She's a great pal to have as a work friend. Maybe once every couple months, you find a reason⁠—like go to the café together, or you grab lunches together all the time or half the time. Really, it's like a friendship of convenience, this particular person. Does that feel right to you?

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: Okay. So, if you were to accept that, then it's more motivating to get her to talk about her family less because you want to like her if you keep this job for a long period of time, because you can't just leave the dynamic, right? You're at work.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: It is worth it to try to find ways to really like her. But it is not worth it to make yourself super vulnerable with her in the ways that I'm talking about with for friends, or even if she was a different kind of pal, because you're not actually having the ambition to transfer her from pal to friend. So that can make it a little easier to navigate because, again, you're going to make that list of rights and responsibilities.

I feel like I promised you that I was going to talk about what are components of pals, and I never really got to it. Is that true? Did I never get to it?

Anna: You never got to it, no.

Jessica: I never got to it. Let me just give you a couple little bullet points that I would put on the pals list. You make each other laugh. You have shared interests. You don't trample on each other's boundaries. Everyone steps on a boundary here and there, now and again, but no trampling. That turns somebody into not a good pal, right?

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: A lot of times, pals are like a function of convenience. They're at work. They're somebody who are in your hiking group. It's somebody who you're interested in becoming friends with, but you don't know yet, so you don't have enough closeness or experience yet. I would say going on dates, in the very first couple dates, they're in pal territory. You don't know them. And so, when you have a pal, you have somebody who you're trying to determine how you can enjoy each other, engage with each other in a way that brings something to your days. But in order to do that, you have to bring something to them.

So your big move is to bring a listening ear. You show up and you listen to what they have to say. But you want to add more tricks to your pony routine. I would encourage you to think about, "What are other things I can bring in?" And that might mean, for instance, with your work friend, talking about celebrities more. It can be superficial. Even though that annoys you sometimes, maybe that's what you're going to challenge yourself to do more of because it's easier. That's like it's a very light lift for you.

But it's going to be important for you to think about what are your responsibilities to a pal. It's not just to listen. It's also to do a little bit of sharing. This is why it's not just about, what are you supposed to get from someone? It's, what are you supposed to give to someone? The more intimate the relationship, you're very clear about what you're supposed to give people. But the less intimate the relationship, you're like, "I'm going to leave. I don't need to be here, do I?" You just kind of are more likely to bounce. Does this make sense with your experience?

Anna: Yes, it does. And I find that I then complain about not being listened to.

Jessica: That makes sense. You don't train people to listen to you at the early stages of relationship, and then they don't. The people who are going to stick around for a palship or a friendship with someone who doesn't ever talk about themselves is somebody who loves the sound of their own voice. And somebody who's like, "This isn't reciprocal. I don't actually know her," they're not going to stick around if you persist in not sharing yourself.

So those people might peter away, and those are the ones you want to⁠—not chase after, but you want to pursue relationships with people who actually want a back-and-forth. And those people might make you feel more awkward, honestly. You're going to be less comfortable with them at first. Your comfort is not a sign of this person being good for you or not being good for you. Your comfort is a sign of your old habits being engaged.

Anna: That's interesting. I think that's where my confusion is, is that if I feel uncomfortable, I think maybe this person is not good for me. The culty vibe is where I got uncomfortable in the past, and I pushed past it when I was uncomfortable. And then I kind of got bamboozled in the end.

Jessica: Okay. So let's talk about that part because you got uncomfortable once you knew them.

Anna: Yes.

Jessica: That's not what I'm talking about because, once you know a person, yes. If you're uncomfortable, pay attention to that. It's at the very beginning when you don't know a person. If they make you instantly comfortable, my guess is they're doing this very important thing. They're taking up all the space⁠—they're talking about themselves, talking about themselves, talking about themselves⁠—or they're telling you who to be and these three simple steps that will make your life better. They're doing one of those two things. Does that make sense to you?

Anna: Yes, now.

Jessica: Now. Yeah. So, at the very beginning, we're in the palship stage, which is translatable for other kinds of relationships. Your comfort is not a reliable resource, because you're the most comfortable with unhealthy, tired dynamics. People who are actually like, "Hey. How are you?" and they're waiting for you to actually answer⁠—those people make you uncomfortable here and now, in the short term. Those are the people you should be talking to because they're making you uncomfortable because they're actually listening to you.

Anna: Yes. That makes so much sense.

Jessica: Yeah, whereas that coworker that we talked about⁠—you've been working with her long enough. You know her well enough. You're not actually trying to transition her into a real friend friend. She's a very good candidate for work friend. And it's okay to have different kinds of relationships for different things. Again, you, my friend, are an Aquarius. It's okay that you're like, "I like lots of different-shaped boxes, and they're different sizes, and they have different purposes."

Once you actually know someone, listen to your gut instinct. Listen to your discomfort or your comfort. But when you're in those early stages, your instincts have a habit of leading you in the same direction over and over and over again. It's kind of a dead-end road. I feel like we've kind of hit it, but I want to see, do you have any kind of final question, anything that is left in your head where you're like, "I don't know"?

Anna: I think my one final thing is that I kind of want to know, when I was a part of these groups, do you think that they started out with ill intentions, or the more I got involved in them, they evolved? I'm just trying to get a gauge. Is it my fairytale princess that⁠—it did seem good at first, and I did feel like I got things out of it. But then it wasn't good.

Jessica: The best lies include some truth, right? We know that. We watch enough fiction TV/movies/stuff. Right? We know. Best lies include a truth. I say this to say, before I look at the answer, just because you got value from it doesn't mean it was good for you or the intention of the giver who gave you some good things was clean. Are we looking at two different groups? It looks like there's three.

Anna: I can think of two.

Jessica: Okay. Let's focus on the two. So we're going to be beep these out, but will you say the name of the first one, the fitnessy one?

Anna: It was called [redacted]. The owner and also the mentor is [redacted].

Jessica: Was it mainly women in this group?

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: Personally, that is always a fucking huge red flag. When a man has assembled a bunch of women to listen to him and obey on some level, we want to call that shit a red flag. He's a huge fan of people deferring to him in all contexts. He really enjoys the power, and he would deny it to his grave. He has an idea about himself that is a little bit of a fantasy, and he really likes other people to believe that fantasy.

Anna: Yes. 100 percent.

Jessica: So it's not a black-and-white answer. It's not like he's some sinister guy standing at a railroad tying up women and waiting for a train to come. That's not the thing. He's a⁠—I'm sorry. Are you old enough to know what that is a reference to?

Anna: Nope.

Jessica: Okay. That just seems really weird to you. Okay. Sorry. It's like very classic, old black-and-white movies; there's a guy twiddling his mustache. Anyways, that made no sense to you. What I'm trying to say⁠—sorry. I'm getting so old. What I'm trying to say is he is not a mastermind evil guy who has a plan, and he's executing his plan. He is a man who wants to believe that he's good and also have power over people. He's helping you as long as you listen to him, and that is dangerous. That is dangerous.

Anna: Yeah. As soon as you are not listening or not helping him, it turns the opposite direction.

Jessica: Yes. Correct, because he doesn't actually want to help you. He wants you to believe in him. His ambition is to help so that he's powerful and respected and revered, not to help because he has empathy driving him. He does not. Does that answer that question with that guy?

Anna: Yes. That clarifies.

Jessica: So let's go with the other one.

Anna: The group, I guess, was called [redacted].

Jessica: Oh my. Okay. Sorry. And what's the woman who runs it?

Anna: [redacted]

Jessica: Were you guys taking drugs at all?

Anna: No, but it felt like it, honestly.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. It does. Yeah. She believes everything she's saying, but she's an energy vampire. Everyone, everyone, everyone who works with her at first feels better, and you at first feel better because she's sucking the fucking life out of you. So you leave, and you're completely depleted and empty, and it feels like your burden has been lifted. And then, over time, you have less energy in your life. Your life is not better. Your life is worse.

And so you need more of her in order to feel okay. She is an energy vampire, and that is deeply, deeply dangerous. Her motives and her belief about herself and the world⁠—she doesn't think she's the villain. She thinks she's a healer, and I'm sure a lot of people would swear that she is a healer. But she is an energy vampire. She's just tapping you like a maple tree. And it's really great that that ended for you because I think if you had stayed in it for too long, it would have been harder to get out. It's a very demoralizing situation.

These are very different people. She has much more of a maternal vibe about her, eh?

Anna: Yeah.

Jessica: I feel like if I met that guy, I'd be like, "No." But if I met that woman, I wouldn't have that instinctive reaction right away. She seems so nurturing and like she really cares. She seems like she stops and listens and looks in your eyes and gets you.

Anna: Mm-hmm. It's the eyes.

Jessica: Yeah. It's the eyes. But again, this is like your fantasy of, "She just saw me, and she got me." And she did. She got you, but not the way you wish. Anyone who encourages your critical thinking, your discernment, and your independence is okay for you. But anyone who asks you to let go of those things and trust in the process⁠—not that trusting in the process is bad. Trusting in the process is very good. But to let go of your discretion and your common sense, to not question things⁠—that's where we have a problem.

And with both of these people, if you said to them, "Your process isn't working for me. This isn't working for me," you wouldn't get their love anymore. And if you're going to turn to a spiritual teacher or mentor and they can't hear criticism⁠—they can't own, "Oh. This was wrong for you. Let's find something that works for you"⁠—then they are 100 percent bad for you. And I think, in general, that's true. But for you specifically and personally, it's very 100 percent true. So it's something for you to be mindful of, and it's ultimately because you need to figure out who you are and give yourself permission to be that around other people and in private. That's the work.

Anna: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Jessica: Yeah. Is there anything else that we should speak to?

Anna: No. That is extremely helpful. I feel like I have a process to think about now. Yeah. I have a lot to think about.

Jessica: You have a lot to think about, and you've got lists to write. You've got shit to do.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: As you are in your Pluto transit, as you are in your Saturn Return, you're going to continue to be confronted by your habits. You're going to be offered opportunities to make the same old choices in new situations. And what you want to just keep on coming back to is yourself. And I know that kind of sounds amorphous, but at the same time, you know how to do that. You just have a hard time validating it.

This is where putting processes in place, like having rights and responsibilities lists⁠—you can even do one for a mentor, should you ever try to get one again. What are the rights of a mentor? What are the responsibilities of a mentor? What are your rights towards one? What are your responsibilities towards one? Something like that can help you so that you have something to return to that you've determined to be right for yourself, not in reaction to the person, but in response to what you feel to be right for you as a person. And that'll really help throughout all your days.

Anna: Yeah. I can definitely tell.

Jessica: Good.

Anna: Thank you. I'm so grateful to you. This was a dream for me, so thank you.

Jessica: Yay. Oh, it is my pleasure.