Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I'll be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica: Emma, welcome to the podcast.

Emma: Hi.

Jessica: Hi. What would you like a reading about?

Emma: So my question is, how can I determine if taking antidepressants/antianxiety medication is a beneficial choice for me now in my life given my resentment towards these pharmaceuticals and how they were offered as the best and possibly only solution for me as a young person growing up?

Jessica: That's really very real. First, I should say, obviously, I'm not a shrink or a doctor, and you should take a zero medical advice from me 100 percent of the time. So this is just a conversation that you can add on to the appropriate channels. That said, you mentioned antidepressants and antianxiety medication. Have you been given diagnoses of depression and anxiety?

Emma: Yes.

Jessica: Okay. And do you feel like they're accurate and true?

Emma: At times, yes.

Jessica: What times?

Emma: Currently, I feel the anxiety more than the depression, and in the past definitely felt more of the depression.

Jessica: Okay. And when you've had more depression feelings, have they been kind of situational? And when I say that, what I mean is have they been⁠ like something depressing is going on and you feel depressed?

Emma: Yes, and like I'm stuck in a cloud and can't seem to find a way to move forward in life.

Jessica: Yeah. From my perspective astrologically, anxiety is governed by two different planets. We've got Neptune, which is panic attacks, like, "I'm losing my shit. I don't know what's real or not real," and Uranus, which is, "My nervous system has me zipping around, and so I'm really anxious in that way." Is the latter the one?

Emma: The Uranus. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: The Uranus. Okay. So that's a good starting place. I should share you were born September 2nd, 1984, 6:54 a.m. in Salem, Oregon. So you mentioned you were on meds as a kid. When did that end?

Emma: So it began when I was 15 for about⁠—not quite a year. It kind of exacerbated symptoms for me.

Jessica: I'm sorry.

Emma: So I went off of it. And then, when I went to college, that first semester was challenging. I had some other childhood stuff surfacing at the time, and I ended up going back on medication until I was about 23, when I weaned myself off of all medications and haven't touched anything since.

Jessica: Okay. So, at 15 and at 19, what were you medicated for? Was it depression, anxiety, or both?

Emma: So it was anxiety when I was 15, and then I think it was both when I was 19.

Jessica: Okay. Again, I'm probably going to repeat it many times because it can't be said enough: I'm not a fucking doctor. You know that. I know you know that, but I feel like I need to repeat it, so I'm going to. There's a lot of things to say. First of all, you are a double Virgo⁠—Sun and Rising. And so, for you, your sensitivity to your physiological health and how it impacts your mental health and your mental health and how it sits in your body is just⁠—I mean, you're just very sensitive. You're a double Virgo.

And so I will say that as a very grown-up adult, you now have the ability to be able to say, "Oh, I need help. I need a medication, but this medication isn't the right medication," whereas, as a teenager, it's too nuanced for a kid to be able to do. And I also think mental health medication was really different that many years ago.

Emma: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica: The other thing I want to just start the conversation off by saying is, in your birth chart, you have this Mars/Uranus/Moon conjunction. You also have a Neptune/Jupiter conjunction square to your Venus. And both of those things, in different ways, make your hormones very fucking sensey, like very sensey. So I want to ask, have you noticed any kind of a relationship between your cycle and anxiety?

Emma: I keep feeling like I should tune in to that and see when these⁠—because I'll be really chill and things are just moving along, and I got my practices and everything is feeling solid, and then I'll have an acute few days. And sometimes I'll be able to correlate that to my cycle, but I'm kind of curious if there's something more than that three days/four days before and a different part of my cycle that is triggering things.

Jessica: In addition to anything else you do, it is really wise to be tracking that, because the Mars/Uranus will fuck with the ovulation, and then the Neptune/Jupiter/Venus will just be like the whole cycle, just all of the cycle. And so I'm curious if, when you're ovulating, you're just like⁠—zing. You know?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: And if that's the case, there are so many things that you can do. Whether it's complementary to pharmaceuticals or instead of, that's TBD. But there are so many things that you can do to try to kind of treat that, and also just having the self-awareness of, "This is actually a normal⁠—torturous, but normal⁠—part of my monthly cycle"⁠—it can make it feel less out of control, which I think is always really helpful with mental health struggles.

I do want to encourage you to track it, and I know that in 2023, we are not using period-tracking apps, out of safety issues⁠—or at least we are advised against it. But there are many other ways of just tracking your cycle. So are you somebody who's able to use a calendar? Are you good at using a day planner or whatever, Google calendar?

Emma: I could be. Yeah. I mean, I'm double Virgo, so I can get down. Yeah.

Jessica: I mean, you have a lot of things in your chart that say no, and you are a double Virgo, so that's why I asked. It looks like it's a little hard for you to do things completely consistently for yourself.

Emma: That's true. Yeah.

Jessica: Would digital or analog be easier for you?

Emma: Notes work really well on my phone.

Jessica: I would encourage you, then, to just have notes on your phone: the date and, on a scale from one to ten, how activated you're feeling. So it doesn't have to be anything⁠—if you want to add more notes, great. But that baseline of what you're going to be tracking is, "I woke up today. The date is the 5th, and I feel on a scale from one to ten like a fucking eight, and it's intense." You don't have to do anything else, just, "It's the 5th, and I'm an eight."

This will not only be a good resource⁠—after a couple months, it'll be a really telling resource⁠—but also, it shouldn't be that hard if you⁠—do you have a consistent cycle?

Emma: Yeah. I do.

Jessica: Okay. So it shouldn't be that hard to hold against your cycle. And the other thing that I want to say about this⁠—as I look at your birth chart, being a double Virgo, also with Mercury in Virgo⁠, having that Mars/Uranus/Moon conjunction happening to square your Sun and Rising in Virgo⁠—your nature is, from an astrological perspective, zingy, like high-strung, high tension. Anxiety is something that is likely to grip your mind and body.

Emma: Yes.

Jessica: Yeah. And that's separate from an anxiety disorder or having an experience of anxiety that is disordered that fucks up your life. I am a big fan of identifying, "Okay. Is this some of my baseline, and is there some of this that I can have acceptance around? And also, is some of this like I need help and this is not working for me, and help exists, so I should also get help?" But I don't like to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Because you have a stellium in Sagittarius⁠—not just that Mars/Uranus/Moon, but also your Neptune, which is conjunct Jupiter⁠—Jupiter is in Cap, but I mean, you've got a lot of Sadge energy. That part of you feels that you're supposed to feel good, things are supposed to be okay, and if you're not okay, then something's terribly wrong. And I just want to hold space for how hard that is because so much of astrology⁠—books will tell you, "You're a Sagittarius. You feel great. You're really optimistic. You're really resilient." And that can be true, but what's also true is knowing that you can be resilient and knowing how great things can be can make the drop a lot further to the ground. Does that make sense, the way I'm saying it?

Emma: Yeah. It does. Yeah. It really does.

Jessica: All of this said, your question is how to assess whether or not to get on meds? Is that right?

Emma: Yes.

Jessica: Okay.

Emma: I mean, that's the question, is do I want to try it again and potentially make things just a little easier for myself, or is it like I am doing just fine where I'm at and I just need to keep working the nuances of catching myself and when I get into anxiety trance and go down those little spirals?

Jessica: When you referenced those couple of days a month where your anxiety really spikes, it feels very familiar to me as a person with a menstrual cycle. I haven't always had that kind of experience, but I do have that experience of just⁠—something shifts, and then it's 24 hours, 72 hours of just really intense thoughts and feelings. So I do want to say that that doesn't mean that what I'm seeing is hormonal. I mean, that's my experience of it. It may or may not be yours.

What I am looking at energetically could be hormonal. It could be mental health struggle. It just might be that your mental health just⁠—you hold it together for a period of the month, and then you don't. And maybe it links with your cycle; maybe it doesn't. I have to ask before I say more, do you have judgments towards or shame around psych meds, anti-anxiety/antidepressant?

Emma: Possibly for myself. For other people, I'm like, "Great. I'm so glad something works for you."

Jessica: Absolutely.

Emma: And I think if I was going to do that, then it is a little bit of this⁠—I gotta prove that I am healthy and well and doing all the things that a healthy, well person does. It's kind of like the try not to fail, which is the anxiety itself.

Jessica: Right. Right. I mean, it's perfect for the anxiety. Let me ask you, if you had a stomach problem and a doctor was like, "Hey, you could take this antacid and it would really just bada-bing your stomach," would you also have that same purist, "I have to prove it"? Or is that⁠—

Emma: ⁠That in particular⁠—I mean, yeah, kind of.

Jessica: Okay. So it's not just around mental health medication. It's kind of around any medication.

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. I think that's really important information for you to hold. I mean, you already knew it, but⁠—because it's not about a mental health stigma. It's that Virgonian perfectionism. You're like, "My system is meant⁠—the baseline should be perfect and well, if it's not perfect and well, then there's something wrong. And if there's something wrong, there's something wrong with me."

Emma: Yes.

Jessica: The joys of being a Virgo. Yes. Yes. And so your face when I just said that⁠—you know that's not how it works, right?

Emma: Exactly. Yeah. I know that that's an ideal.

Jessica: It's worse than an ideal. It's a puritanical lie because the only thing that every human on the planet has in common is that we have a meat suit, and it will rot, decompose, die. It's meant to fail. I hope that didn't sound too gross to you, but⁠—

Emma: Not at all.

Jessica: ⁠—these meat suits, they're meant to be not perfectly healthy all the time. And I know so many people, especially new-age woo-woo people, are like, "No, we're perfect vessels. We're goddesses. We're gods." And I don't vibe with that myself. I tend to believe that we are not meant to achieve perfection of the body or of the soul. We are meant to strive. And if you have indigestion, you could take an antacid or something, and then it could help your indigestion. You can move on your merry way. And if antacids were not yet invented, then you could do something else.

I think, similarly, if you are struggling with your mental health and there is a resource that can help you, why wouldn't you explore it? To me, it is kind of that simple as long as exploring the medication isn't instead of self-care; it's one of your many self-care tools and approaches, which it would be for you, right?

Emma: It would be. Yeah. And I think that as I'm reflecting on this, it's that in the past, I was med-free for about 15 years. And for 14 of them, I would have these various highs and lows, but I was able to manage them. And after having a baby and going through all the postpartum and the hormonal changes⁠—all of that⁠—I've really been in the place of struggle rather than managing for longer than a year.

Jessica: I'm sorry. Post-baby hormones will do it. Also, I don't know if you've looked outside, but there's a lot of crazy things happening⁠—burning, floodings⁠—metaphorical, literal. There is a lot happening, and that you're feeling a lot seems like a well-adjusted response. So I want to just hold you could be having a well-adjusted response to bad things, which would mean you're feeling bad, and then you still are entitled to help with coping. You could be simply having a hormonal time. It could be a million different things. You're still entitled to help.

Every time I look at it, the first thing that just kind of hangs over this topic is your hormones. So I do think that that's real. But I also think the decision about whether or not to try a medication, for you, is the decision to try, not the decision to commit to a medication. That might look like you discussing with a doctor⁠—because a lot of medications, you have to take it for like three months to know if it works or not. That might not be the best move for you. You might need to really just try something and see how it lands in your system because that'll be easier for you mentally to adjust to.

Emma: Yeah, not signing up for someone else's timeline, but actually just trusting that my body is going to tell me exactly what I need to know.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And some medications just don't work that quickly. Some medications, you do need to wait a number of months to see how they function. And those may be the best medications for you, but also, they may not. And so maybe they're not the best place for you to start, which brings me to the other thing. The other thing, which is you are going through your Pluto square to Pluto. Welcome to your midlife crisis. It is the first of several transits associated with the midlife crisis.

You have Pluto at zero degrees of Scorpio. You're a millennial, and you are the first degree of Scorpio millennials who are going through the Pluto square. Okay. Hello. This transit, what it does is it brings up shit from your childhood that you thought you dealt with, you thought you had worked out, and it brings it up so that you have to deal with it. And because it's fucking Pluto, it's your survival mechanisms from childhood. And so there's this part of you that's assessing your options or your mental health or whatever it is as you would have as a kid before you had options and agency.

And so what happens during the Pluto square to Pluto is an opportunity for deep healing and clearing out some deep old shit, but within that is emotions and psychological compulsions of our younger self start to rear their head again. It makes me want to ask you, what was happening at 14 that your parents decided to put you on a medication at 15?

Emma: I had changed schools and was experiencing a lot of social anxiety. In some way, I was adjusting, but I didn't adjust quickly, which has never been my nature, to adjust quickly. I'm a very slow adjuster. But that was probably⁠—so my parents were concerned. My mother was concerned that that wasn't working for me. And so there was a lot of talk about Prozac and other medications at that time. And so we talked to the doctor, and I was put on some medication to feasibly help me just with the social aspect.

Jessica: And it didn't work?

Emma: No. No.

Jessica: Of course not. Yeah.

Emma: I mean, the way that I would describe it is that it kind of made me lose my impulse control and made me feel a little bit erratic and like the spiking that you were saying⁠—that just sort of increased.

Jessica: Yeah. You were having a very normal teenage, "My whole entire life just changed on me, and now I have to adjust. And I wish I could just hide in my room for six months and adjust there, but I have to adjust around people." This is kind of normal for you, eh?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: And that's kind of what you're going through now. You went through this massive change. You brought a child into this world. Your body's different. Your life is different. The way people treat you is different. Everything is different. And ideal double Virgo you would press pause on the universe, pause on the world, pause on everyone. You would sit in a room for six months. You'd think about it. You'd write about it. You'd sleep on it. And then you would unpause the world, and you'd be chill.

Emma: Yes. That's my daydream.

Jessica: Yeah. Sure. I see it clear as day. I mean, it really is a beautiful daydream, and I wish I could give it to you. But I think it's important to acknowledge as you go through your Pluto square that as a kid, your parents⁠—and maybe in particular your mom⁠—weren't able to tolerate that this is how you are. And therefore, you didn't really develop tools for being like, "Okay. So I can't actually live in my room, but I can listen to myself and say, when there's big adjustments, there's a part of me that just wants to retreat and be a bit reclusive, and my introversion gets kicked up."

And if you don't accept that about yourself, then what do you do? You force yourself to be around people. You feel like shit, and you're like, "What's wrong with me?" instead of, "I already know what's wrong with me. I don't want to be here. I already know that, and I know why: because I'm overwhelmed."

The reason why I'm pointing to these things is because I am of the mind that if we don't identify the problem correctly, then we'll not find the right solution. How could we? And what your parents and doctor medicated you for was not your actual problem. Your problem wasn't social stuff. Your problem was you were having a hard time adjusting. And I would say what's going on now⁠—do you have a coparent, a partner that you're coparenting with?

Emma: Yeah, I do.

Jessica: And what's the right gender pronoun for me to use?

Emma: He.

Jessica: He. So is he a big part of managing the day-to-day life?

Emma: He does a really great job. Yeah. He's incredibly supportive.

Jessica: Great.

Emma: And he truly is⁠ like we are coparenting.

Jessica: Brilliant. This is what I love to hear. And how about the rest of your life? How is that going?

Emma: Well, I think that the adjustment into parenthood made me do the recluse introverted thing, and I was able to give myself permission to go there and be there. And then, in the last six months or so, it's felt like, "Okay. Enough of this. I need to get out and be a person in the world that interacts more with other people outside of work." Sometimes I use work as my space to actually engage with others. And so I've been putting a lot more effort into that and to having⁠—not only with my baby but also just on my own, and trying to do that. I would say that in that social way, I'm not quite where I'd like to be, but it's okay.

Jessica: So, when you say you're not quite where you'd like to be, did the anxiety spiking occur in the last six months, or was it happening before?

Emma: It was happening before. It's been a journey. It was acute, and I was able to say, "Oh, this is hormonal," at the beginning of 2022. And then, by about this time last year, I realized that it was a little bit more than I had expected, and I kind of had a wakeup call with that, like, "Oh, I need to find a way to manage this." And so⁠—

Jessica: Did you ask for help?

Emma: Yeah. I have my therapist. And it wasn't until this year, I think, actually, that I started taking Chinese herbs.

Jessica: Okay. And did they help with the anxiety?

Emma: They do. Yeah. Yeah. They help smooth out the day a little bit, but I still have the zingy kind of, "Oh, okay, there it is."

Jessica: The anxiety is not worse around socializing?

Emma: It is worse around socializing.

Jessica: Okay. Okay. Astrology is cool because it kind of articulates our patterns. And this is like you are now reliving a different adult version of one of your really traumatic childhood experiences, if I may call it that. I don't know if that feels accurate.

Emma: It's in there, in the timeline as a notable period.

Jessica: Okay. We'll call it notable, not traumatic, then.

Emma: It's notable.

Jessica: One of your notable experiences. The fact that there's a repeat pattern happening here, to me, makes it really important to pay attention to because what you can give yourself now as a 15-year-old you just couldn't give yourself⁠—you just couldn't give yourself. Part of what your system is saying is, "I don't want to socialize." All your Virgo placements are like, "Yes. It's time, and I should, and I must, and I will." And your body⁠—all that Sagittarius in your chart is like, "Yeah, but I don't want to."

And so there's this internal tug-of-war that's articulating itself with your body trying to stop you. So I'm not saying be a hermit. That's not the answer. But I also think powering through is sometimes not all it's cut out to be. Powering through anxiety can be really⁠—just generate more anxiety. Let me have you say your full name out loud.

Emma: [redacted], and my mother's maiden is [redacted].

Jessica: Thank you. Okay. Okay. Your mom's really scared of anxiety and mental health problems. She's scared of it, eh?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Did one of her parents have a serious mental health problem?

Emma: Possibly my grandma, but it's confusing, you know? She came from Slovakia just past the war, so⁠—

Jessica: It's a different generation that did not⁠—

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: The silent generation did not have mental health problems unless they were in a sanatorium. That is a thing. I get that. But your mom is terrified of mental illness, and nobody is terrified of mental illness without having some reason.

Emma: Yeah. I just had an obvious memory.

Jessica: What was that?

Emma: My grandmother actually⁠—my mom, when she was in her 30s, realized that her mom had tried to kill her and herself when times were really tough for my grandmother.

Jessica: I'm so sorry.

Emma: And it didn't work, but she didn't realize what it was until much later in life.

Jessica: I'm going to say this starts to slip into a trauma box.

Emma: A little bit.

Jessica: A little bit. If your mom started to see signs of mental distress in you, and at the first signs of it, she was like, "We gotta medicate this shit up because I can't bear to see this happen again," when what was happening is this was just you⁠—I mean, I'm not saying you weren't having terrible anxiety, but it really looks like what you could have used is someone to talk to and work out your thoughts and feelings.

Emma: That's what I think. I think that I needed strategies, someone to help me find self-awareness, and instead, I was just given a pill and said, "Okay. Carry on."

Jessica: Yeah, and also the message that there was something wrong, that in addition to feeling wrong, that it was wrong to feel wrong. When you touched a hot stove and it burned your hand, there's nothing wrong with you for having a burned hand; you touched a hot stove. You were going through a major transition, and you have a Venus/Neptune square, and you're a double Virgo. You got your Sun and Mercury in the twelfth house.

You're shy and introverted at first. You really have such a sensitivity to environments and people that you don't just tra-la-la into a room and are like, "Hey, bitches. I'm here." No. You feel it out. And if you're in a place that's chaotic, like⁠—I don't know⁠—a middle school or a high school, it's definitely going to take you time. And that's not the only part of you. This is not the only thing that's true about you, but it's a part of you, and it's certainly true, from what I'm seeing. Does that feel right?

Emma: Oh, absolutely.

Jessica: I mean, listen. That Mars in Sadge conjunct Uranus⁠—wild, bold, courageous. That's true, too. But it's at the base of your chart in the fourth house⁠—like third/fourth house cusp of the fourth. That comes out with people who you really know and trust and you're comfortable with. I doubt you're a wallflower in your marriage or your partnership, but in new social situations, you definitely want to feel it out first. And I can see how, for your mom, that was just red alarm bells, like panic.

And so I just want to kind of say this is really good that this stuff is coming up because then you can hold the messiness and the complexity of it and the understanding that your mom, out of her own fear that has nothing to do with you but with her own mother, pathologized any amount of mental struggle, which is actually just a normal part of being a person. Part of assessing whether or not meds are a good idea for you right now is sorting through what you think of mental health and of getting medication, which⁠—you've already named, "There's something wrong with me if I need a pill of any kind."

But now we have a little bit more than, "Oh, you're a Virgo." Now we have a little bit of, "Oh shit. You've got some inherited ancestral stuff around that from your mom's side." I'm going to make you say your mom's last name one more time.

Emma: [redacted]

Jessica: Yeah. There she is. Is she still with us?

Emma: My mom? Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. And are you in a relationship with her? Are you guys close?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. Great. When I look at her energetically, it looks like her coping mechanism is hold on for grim life. She holds on.

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. She digs in her heels. Oh man. She is so strong that she's rigid.

Emma: Ish.

Jessica: Ish. Well played. Okay. Your chart is primarily mutable. So her energy⁠—I mean, I don't know if she's a fixed-sign person, but this is a very fixed-sign vibe of your mother. She's got real fixed energy. Yours is mutable, so your strength is mutable energy. It's not fixed energy. And that's not less strong; it's just a different kind of energy. And I imagine that it's a little intimidating to your mom because she doesn't know how to locate it. She doesn't know how to clasp onto it the same way. Does that make sense?

Emma: Yeah, it does.

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Jessica: Say your full name one more time.

Emma: [redacted]

Jessica: Thank you. This is not an answer to your question of, "How do I assess whether or not to take medication?" And do you feel like we've kind of addressed that?

Emma: Yeah, I do.

Jessica: Do you have any questions about that? I won't forget what I was going to say. Don't worry.

Emma: No, I don't.

Jessica: When I look at you energetically, I do see the capacity to slip into depressive downward spirals. It does not look like you have clinical depression, but I do see the downward spirals. But I will say they do look like they make sense. And I don't know if this is true, so just want to share this for you to think about, throw away⁠—but if you had total faith and confidence that your depressive cycles⁠—when they emerged, if you just had total faith that they would just be finite periods that would end, how would you treat them differently?

That's just a question I want you to play with because I see that what comes up around the depressive stuff is your mom's fears that this is actually the beginning of the end; this is it. From what I'm seeing, that's just never been the case for you with the depression. You go. You go deep. You go whole. And then you work through it, and it ends. Barring some unforeseen thing, I don't see that really changing. I think that you're likely to experience those feelings again in your life. And also, I don't see you getting trapped or lost there.

Now, the anxiety looks multipronged and different to me. And so, if you were going to get a doctor that you trust, hopefully⁠—because so many doctors, you just have a five-minute conversation, and then they write you a prescription. Hopefully you'd have somebody who would have a longer conversation with you. Astrologically and intuitively, I just don't see that medicating depression is going to make a whole lot of sense for you. I don't think it's going to give you the result you want, because I don't think that's your primary issue at all. Have you tried a Xanax or something like that where you just take it when you're having a minute?

Emma: I did have a Xanax prescription in college, and I definitely used it. And I don't know if I was using it wisely. And I think now, obviously, I would use it wisely.

Jessica: Yeah. So do you mean you were using it and then drinking or⁠—that kind of thing?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Okay. Yeah. I mean, you were a kid. Yeah. But did it work?

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: I mean, obviously, I'm not recommending that you get Xanax because I don't fucking even know what class of drugs Xanax is. But I would say that the reason why Xanax came up in my head is simply because you're not committing to an antianxiety medication for 24 hours a day. It's an as-needed resource⁠—given how you feel about medicating in general would probably be easier on your psyche. And I think it's really valid to consider the mental health strain of making a choice that you struggle with and that gives you anxiety.

I think there's great value in challenging this issue inside of you around medication, around "perfect health," and I also think⁠ you have a lot of Sagittarius and a lot of Virgo, and you're allowed to have fucking commitment issues about it. And I think there's nothing wrong with that, too. So it's about accepting the messiness of it.

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Do you have any other questions that come up?

Emma: Well, I guess one of the things that I have been playing with and like, "Why is this anxiety so strong all of a sudden?"⁠—and I guess my question⁠—if I have a question, it would be this often just feels like my mom's stuff. And yeah, we share a nervous system and did when I was a little baby. And even though I have grown and changed and I'm a different person now than her, it's like all of that is still hardwired versus, like, reaction in me. I guess my question⁠—I think I know the answer⁠—is, can I just get rid of that part?

Jessica: Sure. Sure. No problem. Yeah. You could also get rid of your body. No problem. Bada-bing, bada-boom. Yeah. No. I mean, yes⁠—with years and years and years of therapies, yeah. But what's happening now is not that all of a sudden it's a problem; it's that there is this combo platter of these issues being activated within you and you being old enough and wise enough and experienced enough with yourself and with the world and with your mother to understand what's actually fucking happening. So that doesn't mean you magically can fix it overnight, but it does mean you're in your midlife crisis.

Neptune's just about to square itself. Pluto's squaring itself. You're in this very particular moment of your development which is normal and age appropriate. Any astrologer worth their salt could have been like, "Hey, look, you're going through some shit. Does it remind you of your childhood? What's coming up with your family?" That's what happens here. And so just because it's on time doesn't mean it feels good, but just because it feels bad doesn't mean it's not exactly what you're meant to be working with.

As you identify, "Oh, wow, I'm holding on to my mom's nervous system. I have interjected and taken on a lot of her values and ideas about the world that I 100 percent don't agree with in any way, but I still believe it because she's my mom and because⁠—life"⁠—now you can start to work with that and unravel that. And that's what the midlife crisis is meant to do, especially at that Pluto square to Pluto phase that you're in.

Emma: How long does it last?

Jessica: Excellent question. Well, all Pluto transits⁠—and I mean all Pluto transits⁠—last two years. Neptune transits⁠—two years. So your Neptune is at almost 29 degrees of Sagittarius, and so Neptune is dancing around late degrees of⁠—27 degrees of Sagittarius. It's almost starting its square, but it will properly begin its square April 2024, in a year.

Emma: In a year.

Jessica: You're kind of getting the whiff, the aroma. It's not an amuse-bouche. It's not an aperitif. You can smell it in the kitchen; it's cooking.

Emma: Yeah. What is that flavor, or what is that scent?

Jessica: Neptune square to Neptune is⁠—so Neptune governs anxiety, not your primary cup of tea anxiety, but it's very much in your chart. So it's anxiety. It's what's real, what's not real. Your Neptune square Venus, by the way, gives you a devotional way of loving. So you love your mother. The way you prove it is by agreeing with her about everything, by taking on her issues. You agree with your partner. You, on a core level, take on his issues, agree with a lot of his worldview. This is just part of the Venus/Neptune square.

Learning boundaries is key. When the Neptune square to Neptune occurs, what we go through is this spiritual crisis where, if our lives don't hold meaning, we start to crumble. We start to feel like, "Well, what is the point? If I don't derive meaning from what I am and what I'm doing, what is the literal point of any of it?" So we start kind of sorting through what we've built up in our lives both internally, spiritually, psychologically, all that, but also in our material lives.

And we need to start to create a little more spaciousness so we can figure out what needs to come in. So it's like the anti-material. And part of why the midlife crisis happens is because we are making a meaningful turn in our development in this human form from our childhood, where everything was in front of us⁠—everything was in front of us; "I'm learning. I'm striving. I'm getting." And then, at the midlife, we're still young, but tick tock, right?

And so there's this shift in, "Now that I actually have wisdom, now that I've been me long enough, I need to integrate and assimilate what I've learned, what I believe, what's important to me." So, if you truly believe⁠—truly believe⁠—that medication and support to the body or the mind is perfectly healthy and good for me and for everyone you care about but not for you, yeah, that's going to come up in your fucking Neptune square because a belief can't be conditional like that. That's what you're getting the whiff of, this, "What is the point? What is the meaning?"

But you're very much in your Pluto square to Pluto. And in particular, you and I are recording this during the week where Pluto is opposite Mars and square to Jupiter, and it's all fucking hitting your Pluto. And I did not realize this when we scheduled the reading, but I was like, "Oh, this is a minute for you to have a fucking reading." The astrology that's happening this week is activating your Pluto square. And so, if you have been feeling particularly intense this week, I would say, "Right on time."

But also, I would say in your birth chart Pluto is pretty chill. Pluto is always Pluto. Pluto is never chill, but in your birth chart, it forms a sextile to Jupiter and a  sextile to Mercury. And that's pretty much all it does. So you do not have the Plutonian trauma. However, Pluto is always a little traumatic. It's always in the family of "Ouch." That's not all it is, but when we're talking about the Pluto square, it brings up those pain points that are often inherited⁠—generational⁠—that we need to ring out the sponge and get all the water out kind of thing.

Really, that's what we're meant to be doing here, is to really release things that we've been holding on to that we didn't think we were holding on to. This is why a lot of people have a hard time with the midlife crisis. This is why a lot of people do a lot of ridiculous things by burning this down so I don't have to deal with that, basically.

The good news in all of this is that you struggling with how to relate to your own mental health and your own body and struggling with what kind of support is a cop-out, what kind of support is good for you, and everything in between⁠—that's actually perfectly on time. That's resonant with generational stuff and childhood stuff. It lets you know you're doing the right work. As much as it's a struggle and it's not fun, it's what you're meant to be dealing with, which means through the process of dealing with this, this is like the good part of the Pluto square, is that you can actually release this shit. You can actually change.

So, when you asked me that question of, "Can I just be done with this?" the answer is yes, but it'll take a couple years of doing the damn work. Your birth chart, the Universe⁠—however you want to think of it⁠—is saying, "These are the years. Do it now." So, in a way, that kind of⁠—I thought, oh, we could get on this call, and I could just talk to you about your Pluto square immediately and be like, "Okay. So experiment with taking medication. See how that goes. Okay. See you later. Bye." But obviously, I didn't do that because I think it's important to process it all out.

But the Pluto square is clearly saying it's time to explore different ways of taking care of yourself and allowing other people to take care of you, and not be decisively one thing. That's your mom's way. It's about doing it your way, like a mutable person, where it's like, "I'm going to try this on. I'm going to set up resources for supporting myself and checking in, and if it doesn't work, I'm going to change my damn mind. I'm going to take a different approach." That's your way.

Emma: Yeah. That resonates, and it does seem like oftentimes I tried a lot of different things to find out what works rather than just⁠—it should⁠—it's great. That's great. Yeah.

Jessica: I mean, if you're going to have this much mutable energy in your birth chart, you have to be this way. This is your nature. And again, this is the joy of astrology, is your North Node, Chiron, Midheaven, Moon, Neptune, Uranus, Mars, Sun, Rising, and Mercury are all mutable. You're making a face. Don't make that face. Don't make that face. It's not bad or good. It just means trying things on is⁠—it's like mutable signs are all about communication and experimentation and transition.

Emma: Okay. Yeah.

Jessica: So there's something really beautiful about that. Mutable signs happen just as seasons are changing; there's a shift in a season. And that is⁠—I don't know. I think that's really beautiful. I think it's important to be able to say to yourself, "It is my nature to explore. It is my nature to try things on and explore how they feel and whether or not they work, and that's what works for my nature," instead of being like, "Oh, that's a bad thing or good thing." It's not a bad thing or good thing. It's your thing.

Emma: Yeah.

Jessica: Now, is there anything that we left unexplored? Is there anything that you want to ask that we didn't quite get to⁠—on this topic, of course?

Emma: I feel good about exploring that and not even going the route, necessarily, of medication, but seeing if there's other herbs or something else than what I have currently tried. And I am seeing a naturopath, so that would be a great place to start, is asking them.

Jessica: Yeah. And you're getting Chinese herbs from an acupuncturist or⁠—

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: So I would encourage you, of the two, to track your hormones with the acupuncturist.

Emma: Okay.

Jessica: Yeah, because⁠—I don't know⁠—I find Chinese medicine to be glorious when it comes to hormonal stuff. And I think, as homework, to make sure that you're exploring that puritanical part of yourself that's like⁠—

Emma: That's the thing.

Jessica: That's a real big thing. That's a real big thing, yeah, to make sure that you're not feeling like you're supposed to be at 100. The body is⁠—I don't know⁠—

Emma: Mutable.

Jessica: It's mutable. Well done. It's mutable. I was going to say it's kind of like a ship or a car. They don't last forever. They're not meant to. They take a lot of maintenance. I have a 1983 Mercedes. I love her. Her name is Blanca. This car is just a joy to drive, takes biodiesel⁠—oh my God. I'm so happy with this car. But because she's older, things break. Things go sideways. Every time that happens, it's not like I'm like, "Oh God. What's wrong with my car?" It's like, "Oh. I need to do what I need to do to maintain this car."

I would give you that, kind of, as a model for maintaining your car because, as you've probably heard me say before, in astrology, Mars is the body, but it's also our car. It's what we mobilize through the world in⁠—Mars. Just think about, "Oh, okay. I get to maintain her." And if your mom's open, I'd be really curious if you picked her brain, and just be a good mutable child and ask questions, and just really listen to her answers because it might be really helpful for you to be like, "Wow. That's what's in me. And that's not how I think." But to just get that kind of information from her might be really helpful for you.

Emma: Yeah. That's great. I do have some other questions I've been wanting to ask her, so it could be like a whole party.

Jessica: Yeah, a whole party. Does she answer questions?

Emma: I think so.

Jessica: Okay.

Emma: That's a good⁠—I don't think I'm asking her enough questions to know.

Jessica: That's the answer, then. Ask her more questions because I think this is a really fertile moment for you, this midlife crisis shit. And even your anxiety, from what I'm seeing, has a lot of fertility to it because some of it's you just struggling with you, not just being like, "Oh, I feel anxious. I need to slow down and take care of myself." It's like, "Oh, I feel anxious. What's wrong?" And yeah.

Emma: Pounce.

Jessica: Yeah. It's a pounce. It's a pouncing on yourself⁠—instead of being like, "Okay. What do I need to adjust here? What's happening?" being a little bit more of a good mutable child and being curious. So I actually think, through this midlife crisis mishigas you're in and coming up, and it's all happening⁠—this could be a time where you really shift gears and actually accept your own nature and work with your nature, and then have less friction with yourself. It's kind of right on time.

Emma: Yeah. It always is.

Jessica: It always is. Now, there's one thing I'm going to say to you before we end, which is simply this: Saturn is right now at almost seven degrees of Pisces. When it hits eight degrees, it's going to be fucking with your mutable stellium. That won't happen until February of 2024. But Saturn transits are depressing for everybody. That's just what Saturn is. I'm not trying to predict the future too much, because I don't think that's terribly helpful. I think the present is really where I want to encourage you to stay.

But I would be remiss if I didn't say you are going to be going through Saturn transits. Everybody, or most people most of the time, experience depressiveness or depression during Saturn transits. And there's a reason why. It's because we're asking serious questions in serious ways and we're dealing with consequences. Every seven years, your stellium of mutable stuff goes through Saturn crisis. So you would look at eight years ago to have a sense of what that was because it's a year from now, or just less than a year from now. And were you going through a depression about then?

Emma: I mean, 2014 was huge for restructuring and huge life change. In 2015, a little bit more like understanding the new territory.

Jessica: Okay. Well, then that tells me that you didn't have that hard a time with your Saturn transits because they weren't happening in 2014.

Emma: Okay.

Jessica: Yeah. They were happening in 2015. So it might not be that bad. But that's really good information because if you're not super depressed during Saturn transits, you probably don't have a major issue with depression. You might⁠. Again, not a doctor. But throwing that out there. And if you do find yourself being like, "Oh, I'm hitting my low," then just set up support. Explore it. And if you need help through medication, have a doctor on call so that you can explore getting help through medication. No judgment. It's just about engaging with your life in the healthiest way possible, whatever that looks like this cycle.

Emma: Okay.

Jessica: All right, my dear. I really hope this was helpful, and I wish you well through all the highs and lows.

Emma: Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time, and this has been a little bit of a dream come true. So thank you.

Jessica: Yay. I love to do a dream come true. My pleasure. My pleasure.