Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I'll be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica:      Welcome to the podcast. Tell me what you would like a reading about today.

Guest:              Okay. Well, the subject line⁠—I just quickly threw out into the abyss, and I just wrote, "What does empathy for myself even mean?" And then I think I had a couple little follow-ups there. Okay. Yeah. So what does empathy for myself look like? How can I build a foundation of self-esteem that isn't overinflated or fragile? And what does maintaining inner love look like? And I just envision pruning a little rosebush or something, but yeah.

Jessica:            I like that. So, for astrology students, you were born December 1998, so you can kind of get a sense of generational planets. This question really struck me because I think it's something that most people struggle with, is how to have empathy, but not just how to have empathy for yourself, but also, what is the difference between having too much self-reflection or being too fragile and not enough? It is a really confusing thing.

                        And I wanted to ask you before I begin if there was something specifically happening in your life that prompted that question or if you were just having a fucking feeling.

Guest:              Okay. Well, okay. So, every now and again, it's like, "Oh, stuff's happening. I'm lining up a bit." So there were a few things. I was driving to class, and my partner called me. And I don't know. I was, like, recounting my dreams wherein someone said I was like a people pleaser who likes attention. And then she was like, "Well, yeah, sure. But also, you're a complex person," blah, blah, blah. "Go easy on yourself." And I just burst into tears. And last night, she was like, "You're someone worth knowing." And I was like, "Ah." And I'm already crying, and I don't know why.

                        So it's just been like⁠—you know, it's been a recurring theme that I've been conscious of for probably a decade, if not more, which is like half of my life, my brief existence. So yeah. But I don't know. It's just really coming up lately in a bunch of different ways, even the fun little apps or whatever, and my little Kapwa tarot deck that I use. It was like, "Hmm. The self-love and going easy on yourself"⁠—I was like, "Okay. Fine. I'll write Jessica. We'll see what happens." And here we are.  So…⁠

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. That's good. That's really helpful. So there's a number of things that I want to say about your birth chart when it comes to empathy and self-love, but also the ego, because whether or not you meant to, you wrapped the ego into this question, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            By saying overinflated, right? So, first of all, you are a Libra Rising with Mars conjunct the Ascendant.

Guest:              How conjunct is it?

Jessica:            It's a great question. So your Rising is at 7 degrees of ⁠—it's at 6 degrees and 49 minutes, so we call that a 7 degrees Libra rising. And then your Mars is at 13 degrees, 12 degrees and 43 minutes. It's not a tight conjunction, but it is an absolute conjunction. And having Mars conjunct the Ascendant can make a person's ego pretty strong. And that doesn't mean robust and healthy ego. It just means your ego is on the surface. Any time we have a planet in the first house, especially if it's close to the Ascendant, it's on the surface.

Mars is really about our ambition and our drive and, a lot of times, our anger and our reactiveness. Mars is defensive by nature. It's a defensive player. The Sun is the will, but Mars is the ego. And sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

Guest:        Oh. That is hard. Yeah.

Jessica:            Right. But for you, your ego comes in hot, and it comes in quick, and it comes in especially around relationships because this is all in Libra. So wanting to be seen, wanting to be validated, needing to feel like you're getting the attention and the validation that you deserve⁠—Mars lacks not just validation, but also, it wants to be told, "You're the MVP. You're the most important one here." And so getting that can soothe that Mars conjunction to the Ascendant, but the problem is, because it's in Libra, first of all, it can kind of never be enough because it's like, "Tell me I'm pretty again. Tell me I'm pretty again."

                        And then the other part of it is because Mars is by definition a planet of embodiment and volition, and so it's constantly wanting to move. And so it gives you this restlessness of, "If I move it over here, is it still good? If I move it over there, is it still good?"

Guest:              So that's just Mars in general, not necessarily in Libra?

Jessica:            That's Mars conjunct the Ascendant in particular.

Guest:              Gotcha.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so having it be in Libra, it is a very important distinction because it is your identity and it is your ego, but it's in the sign of relating to others. It's a relational sign. And so, for somebody with a Mars conjunction to the Ascendant, it's like if we just look at that one aspect alone, that can make you feel annoyed by people. But because it's in Libra, even if people are annoying, you want to be relational. That's actually really important, for you to be relational, partially because that's what you like and partially because, actually, that's what your ego likes. The ego gets a bad rap, and it is true that when the ego is too small or too big, it can be very fucking problematic.

Guest:              Mm-hmm. This is why we wrapped it into the question.

Jessica:            Exactly. Exactly. But it's really not about the ego being good or bad. It's about the ego being healthy or not. And we'll come back to that in a hot minute.

Guest:              Okay. Put a pin.

Jessica:            Yeah. We're putting a pin right there. But the next thing that really comes up for me with your question is that you have a Pluto conjunction to Mercury.

Guest:              I knew it.

Jessica:            Now, this one is tight.

Guest:              Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. This one is tight. So you have Mercury at seven degrees, and you have Pluto at almost nine degrees of Sagittarius. So they're nice and tight. I think, yes, it is your tightest conjunction in the chart.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And this makes it so that your Mercury in Sagittarius that says⁠—

Guest:              The glasses came off. It's getting serious.

Jessica:            Yes. It's getting serious. The Mercury in Sagittarius, which says, "I want to explore, and I want to learn, and I want to just eat snacks of knowledge. I want to have experiences and ideas that are happening kind of all at once in the synergistic experience"⁠—

Guest:              Oh yeah. Sounds great.

Jessica:            Yeah. And Pluto comes and is like, "I don't want that. I need that. If I don't get that, I might be actually losing my shit. I don't know if I can survive if I don't get that. If I don't understand it deeply, then I'm somehow failing. And if I'm failing"⁠—then it can get into really deep self-esteem issues because, while Pluto is not related to self-esteem, Pluto is related to survival. So wherever we have Pluto in our chart is where we have our survival mechanisms.

Guest:              And it is conjunct my Sun.

Jessica:            It's conjunct⁠—no. It's conjunct your Mercury.

Guest:              Mercury. Sorry. But it's in the same sign as the Sun, so it [crosstalk].

Jessica:            But very far apart.

Guest:              Okay. Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. Very far apart. This is where the "astrology is math" is really important. So your Sun is at 29 degrees of Sadge, and you have Pluto at 9 degrees. So they're 20 degrees apart.

Guest:              Embarrassing. Oops. Yeah.

Jessica:            No, no. Not embarrassing. It's actually very good that you bring it⁠—

Guest:              But it is embarrassing because of the Mercury/Pluto conjunction. You see?

Jessica:            Oh, because your fucking Mercury⁠—yes. Yes. Okay, because you want to get it right all the time.

Guest:              Of course.

Jessica:            I see.

Guest:              But I⁠—anyway, here we are.

Jessica:            And this is actually a perfect⁠—it's perfect that this happened in this moment because the best-case scenario is being excited about learning and understanding that learning means⁠—

Guest:              That you don't know stuff if you're learning things.

Jessica:            Right. It's engaging actively with what you don't know. Then that's not a failure. That's how you learn, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's the only way you learn. But Pluto says, "I have to have not just all the information but an innate synthesis of the information; otherwise, I failed."

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So this is a very un-empathetic placement to have in its negative form. And when I say negative form, I want to say it's like⁠—I hate being positive/negative, but there's a shit side, and then there's a beauty side. And so, as we're just kind of going through the main points that I'm going to point to around this really important question, I will say this, that Mars conjunct the Rise⁠—and there's more to this list, but trust me here. The Mars conjunct the Rise is a placement that makes you feel like, "Okay. I need to be in motion. I need to be achieving, and other people need to be able to see it and validate it."

                        That Mercury conjunction to Pluto is, "If it's not deep and it's not expansive, if I'm not growing it, if I'm not showing up at 100 percent, then I may be abandoned. I may reveal that I'm somehow wrong in some really intense way."

Guest:              Does the wrongness, the super moralistic "wrong, wrong, bad," come from the Pluto? Is that⁠—

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              Okay. Cool.

Jessica:            Yeah. It does. What Pluto conjunct your Mercury is saying is that you were raised in an environment where⁠—and it might have been through religiousness, religiosity. Did you go to a religious school? Were you raised by religious people?

Guest:              Oh yeah, the Roman Catholic Filipino vibes on a weekly basis.

Jessica:            There it is. There it is.

Guest:              Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. There it is. So what you learned was that there was this massive consequence for making the wrong choice and for having the wrong belief. And whether or not your adult self resonates with that, that's what early-developmental you learned. This Pluto placement in Sagittarius⁠—because it's in Sagittarius, it speaks to religiosity. But this placement really can make it so that both⁠—whether it's the written word or your ability to verbalize and communicate⁠—your ability to communicate is your superpower, but it's also your kryptonite because⁠—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—you put yourself out there, and you say the things or you write the things⁠—whatever your medium is. And then Pluto is like, "You said it wrong. You said it right, but you said it with weird tone." And it's just like you run over everything.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            And it can be gut-wrenching⁠—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—because Pluto literally is your guts feeling like they're being ripped apart. So let's add one more fun point to this.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            And "fun" is sarcasm, so let's not believe me.

Guest:              I mean, with the Capricorn energy, it is fun.

Jessica:            Right. Okay. Okay.

Guest:              It's a great time.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. I'm glad you said that, because we're going straight to your Capricorn Moon, and it's square to Saturn. And also, you have Neptune in Aquarius square to Saturn. So the Neptune square to your Saturn is an out-of-sign square. And out-of-sign squares simply mean we consider all of the energies. It's not weaker or stronger, in my view.

Guest:              What does out of sign mean? Pardon. Pardon.

Jessica:            Okay. Sure, sure, sure. No problem. No problem. So, basically, when we're talking about squares, we're talking about a 90-degree angle between planets. And cardinal signs can square each other. Fixed signs square each other. Mutable signs square each other. But sometimes⁠—so, for instance, for you, you've got your Saturn at 27 degrees Aries, and you've got your Moon at 21 Cap. So that's a square, a 90-degree angle with a seven-degree orb.

                        But you also have Neptune at almost one degree of Aquarius. Saturn, if we climb from 27, 28, 29, and then go to that zero degree of Aquarius⁠—one. That's five degrees apart. So your Neptune square to Saturn is tighter than your Moon square to Saturn, but the Neptune is out of sign. So it's a fixed sign with a cardinal sign, which is notable.

Guest:              Is the Moon also out of sign?

Jessica:            No. That's why I didn't mention it. So the Moon is in Capricorn, and Capricorn and Aries are both cardinal.

Guest:              Oh, it's because the Neptune is right on the Aquarius.

Jessica:            It's at 1 Aquarius. Exactly.

Guest:              Yes. Yes. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Thank you.

Jessica:            So we can only have out-of-sign aspects at early degrees or late degrees of a sign. That's the only way to get them.

Guest:              Gotcha. Thank you.

Jessica:            My pleasure. My pleasure. And I will say just for context, your desire to know all the details⁠—Mercury conjunction Pluto.

Guest:              Of course.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              I'm just showing my whole ass. It's fine.

Jessica:            No, I love it. No, it's perfect. It's perfect. I love it.

Guest:              For those who are afraid to ask, I will ask. It's me. It's me.

Jessica:            You will ask the questions. And I love questions, so do not hesitate. Seriously, do not hesitate.

Guest:              God bless. All right.

Jessica:            So let's stick with this because Saturn square Neptune is a challenging aspect, and it's a generational one. So anyone who was born around '98 is going to potentially have this square because they're slow-moving planets. Saturn square to Neptune gives us anxiety. So you have Neptune in the fourth house, and it's square to Saturn in the seventh. And this placement means a number of things. The first is Saturn in the seventh makes you feel like all of your relationships are fated and important, and something serious has to happen. You have to show up. You have to do something.

Guest:              Are they not?

Jessica:            Excellent question. Not everybody feels the way you do. And I'm sure you've noticed because I'm sure you've had relationship experiences already where you're like, "I don't get it, how people don't actually show up, how people don't care, how people don't follow through," because they don't have fucking Saturn in the first or seventh house. That's the answer to that question.

Guest:              Or that they don't see the ways in which I was doing⁠—you know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Jessica:            No, no. What were you going to say?

Guest:              Either it feels like they aren't showing up in this intense way, or that it feels like my seriousness/intensity, whatever, is not being seen for as intense or committed or whatever as it is by the other person. Does that make sense?

Jessica:            Interesting. So other people don't perceive you to be as present and committed as you feel you are is what you're saying.

Guest:              Yes. Or I worry that that's the thing. Whether that's true or not⁠—

Jessica:            That's the worry.

Guest:              Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So that's the Neptune square to Saturn. It's not knowing what's real.

Guest:              Oh, great.

Jessica:            That's the problem with that aspect. And again, it's generational, and yours is not the only generation that has this square. But Neptune is ethereal. It's spiritual connection, that feeling of, "I saw this person. I just⁠—I got them and they got me." Neptune. Saturn is all about the fucking 3D. Saturn is about consequences and connection and proof.

And so, when we have a Saturn square to Neptune, what ends up happening is that at times⁠—and for you, this shows up around your relationships⁠—it's hard to know which reality is real. And it can feel like you may experience sitting around and deeply contemplating what's happening within a relationship and how important it is to you, and you feel that that is equal to effort and time placed into the relationship, whereas other people feel that actions are the only verifiable investment that they have of yours.

Guest:        Right.

Jessica:            And for you, sometimes you're all action all the time. And other times, you get really caught up in your own inner world, and your actions are internal. And so people don't know what the fuck is going on⁠.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            ⁠And that can get you into trouble⁠—

Guest:              Sure.

Jessica:            ⁠—which is especially uncomfortable for you because that Moon in Capricorn⁠—you don't just have Moon in Capricorn. You also have Venus in Capricorn, I should say.

Guest:              Oh yeah. And I'm a Libra Rising, so ho, ho, ho.

Jessica:            Ho, ho, ho. Exactly. So Venus⁠—no, we're not talking about Venus. So the Moon in Capricorn is already like, "I need you to understand that I am working hard and that I'm responsible." That is actually really important to you, and you want that from other people. But because Moon and Saturn are square, what you have is this hypervigilance around your own emotions.

Guest:              What? Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Guest:              Yes. Mm-hmm. Emotionally constipated. I don't know where I got that phrase, but yes.

Jessica:            It's Saturn, for sure. It could be Saturn/Moon square. What it does is it makes it so that you feel like it's kind of never enough. And the self-awareness that is inherent to your nature is especially challenging because it can become like a self-consciousness where you're constantly editing yourself and triple-guessing yourself.

Guest:              Which we're also doing with the Mercury/Pluto conjunction as well, right?

Jessica:            Yes.

Guest:              Yes. Okay.

Jessica:            Although Pluto/Mercury conjunction is not inherently⁠—

Guest:              Tied to the⁠—

Jessica:            ⁠—second-guessing self.

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            No. But the combo platter intensifies all of these things, which is why I'm naming these three things, because this is kind of how you even came to this question, right? It's like the Mars on the Rising is like, "I'm important. Everybody knows I'm important." Mercury/Pluto believes that until it feels too⁠—like this disgusting vulnerability hangover. And then the Moon square to Saturn is this hypervigilance about, "I need to figure this out, and I need to do the right thing. And I need to do the right thing, and I need to figure this out." And then Neptune square to Saturn is like, "I know that I need those things, but I'm also not sure which reality to center in my perception."

Guest:              And especially in regards to serious relationships that I take seriously.

Jessica:            All of your relationships, I would say. And so this is where you get into trouble.

Guest:              Oh. Darn my expansive concept of relationship. Okay. Cool.

Jessica:            Yes. Correct. And this is where you get into trouble because you are a person, because of that Mars and that Mercury/Pluto, where wherever you are is where you are. You're 100 percent there when you're there, but⁠—if you have a bestie, when you're with them, you're 100 percent with them. But then, when you're with your partner, you're 100 percent with them, which means your energy is not as considerate of the bestie anymore. So, for you, because you have so many different kinds of relationships, you can get into trouble this way because you have so much energy that you bring to dynamics.

All of this to say, kind of trying to stay as focused as we can on your question, is that the question of how to have empathy for yourself is really about the question of, how can you recognize that you have multiple drives and they do not all need the same thing from you? Let's start with that, right?

Guest:        Yeah. Okay. That sounds reasonable.

Jessica:      Right. Right. So there is a part of you that does like motion, action, and attention.

Guest:        Sure. Yeah.

Jessica:            And then there's another part, the Moon/Saturn, that doesn't want any fucking attention. "Don't look at me. Don't talk about me. I want privacy." Right?

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            And they're both there. And inevitably, that Mars stuff is going to sometimes embarrass the Moon in Capricorn, and the Moon in Capricorn is going to sometimes slow down the drives of your Mars. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

Guest:              Oh yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              Inside you, there are two worlds.

Jessica:            Exactly. Well, inside you are many worlds. I think inside of all of us there are. This is really about, first of all, recognizing that there is a way that if you're trying to satiate and make feel better all your parts in the same moment, you're going to feel chaotic, just chaotic. And this is something you've experienced enough, right? And I think this is like being pre-Saturn Return, a.k.a. being in your teens or your 20s, is really all about this. It's about knowing yourself well enough to be able to see the parts, talk about the parts, understand the parts, but not having enough lived experience as an adult yet with what the parts need and how they actually act, because that's what your 20s are for. It's for having those experiences.

                        And so there are going to be times when you put yourself out there in ways that you then feel like, "Why did I do that?" And in those moments, what you need⁠—so that's when your fiery stuff⁠—your Mars, your Mercury and Pluto in Sadge⁠—have done whatever they've done, and then your cardinal stuff, like your Saturn and your Moon, your Venus, are like, "We gotta handle it now." So, in those moments, it's about recognizing that the empathy you need for yourself is kind of an earthy empathy. So the first step is getting into your body.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Is that something you know how to do, you ever practice with at all?

Guest:              It's very⁠—I feel like the all-or-nothing energy is very much there with it. When I go to physio and stuff, my physiotherapists are like, "Oh, you have so much intersection and bodily awareness." And I'm like, "Yeah, when we're in the session and we're focused on it and we're doing this thing, it's there." But then, when I'm going about my daily life or doing some other thing, I don't know. I try to breathe and catch myself and throw in little postural corrections and stuff here and there.

                        However⁠—yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of body stuff. There's gender things. There's chronic pain. There's "I just want to have fun doing things," but then being perceived…

Jessica:            A lot of things. Okay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So let me have you say your full name out loud real quick.

Guest:              Okay. We have [redacted], and then there's also my mom was like [redacted].

Jessica:            There it is. Thank you. Thank you for giving me that last one. Okay. So there's a couple things that come up for me here.

Guest:              Yeah. That felt really heavy. I don't know what you're doing, but⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I'm just tapping in, just tapping in. The first thing I want to say is that you're allowed to be sad. And in all of this⁠—

Guest:              Stop. No. So annoying.

Jessica:            I know. I'm so sorry. I apologize. I know. I was like⁠—

Guest:              Why am I so uncomfortable with that? Do you know why?

Jessica:            Yes, I do. Yes, I do, for literally all the things I named. So Moon in Capricorn is the least comfortable with sadness, with sadness of the⁠—

Guest:              But why? It's so sad.

Jessica:            Because it's so sad. Yeah. And then it's squared by Saturn, right? So, also, Mars on the Rise? I mean, that's⁠—Mars is a little man symbol. It's like, "I'm a big, strong man. I don't got no feelings."

Guest:              I love how you said "little."

Jessica:            It is like, "I don't have feelings. I'm not vulnerable. I just do shit, and I get shit done." And that Mercury/Pluto is like, "Well, if I'm sad, there has to be a larger meaning. And if there's a larger meaning, if I could figure it out, then I won't be sad."

Guest:              Oh, there's⁠—ah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And here's the thing.

Guest:              So even me asking why is like⁠—just no. Just you're allowed to be sad. That's it. Full stop.

Jessica:            You asking why is you being in your process. And I want to just really hold space for this is the time to let the whole process out because⁠—

Guest:              We're on a podcast.

Jessica:            No, no, no, because this is what happens, honestly, in your head, right?

Guest:              Yeah. No, absolutely.

Jessica:            It's like you have a feeling, and then you try to find meaning and answers. What really came up when you said your name, and in particular the last name you gave me, is that you hold a huge amount of sadness in your system. And when you feel sad, it has a depressive heaviness, classic Capricorn Moon. And for you⁠—

Guest:              Can I interject for a second?

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              So the gateway who into astrology for me was when I saw Alice Sparkly Kat's Sun/Moon archetype combination. And for a Sadge Sun/Capricorn Moon, it's sad clown.

Jessica:            Oh yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Guest:              Oh yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So wait. I'm going to just slow down because I want to acknowledge part of what's happened is I named your sadness⁠—

Guest:              And now I'm running away from it with other things.

Jessica:            Distracted me.

Guest:              Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. You distracted me with a lot of different details and stories, right? And this is your process.

Guest:              Which is also my process.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's your process. That's your process. But it's specifically not empathetic to the self. What you're doing is you're evading instead of nurturing.

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            Okay?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So, while all of these things are interesting and it's your process, to stay as grounded as we can into your question about how can you have empathy for yourself⁠—right?

Guest:              Yeah. I clearly⁠—yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's about allowing yourself to be like, "Okay. I can feel this. I can feel this." And if you can, set the intention to sit with the feeling for seconds on the clock, like 30 seconds. 30 seconds. Put a timer on your phone. If you can hold it for four minutes, that's fucking amazing. You don't have to start with a massive goal, but to sit with it and to breathe into it because what I see is you really leave your chest. You leave your body. And then you have this big, bubbly, expansive mind that you run into. And it's great, but it will eventually lead you to self-hating thinking or critical-of-others thinking because the feeling underneath it is not just, "I'm sad," but, "I've abandoned myself."

                        And so the mind will eventually⁠—unless you're really wrangling it, it will end up going to abandonment-themed thinking because that's actually what's driving it. Does that make sense?

Guest:              Yes. But I want to make it not make sense because then I'll just be like, "Oh, the words that Jessica used"⁠—and then my brain will go…

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              So, in the moment when we're feeling the feelings and the brain is bubbly and the chest is like⁠—we breathe into the chest?

Jessica:            Yeah, or wherever you're feeling it. Like in this moment, I can feel that it's like you're holding it in your chest. But you might feel it in your guts. You might feel it in your earlobe. I don't know. So wherever you're feeling it, it's about breathing in and setting the intention. You're going to feel the feelings. You're going to keep on breathing into your meat suit as you feel the feelings for 30 seconds or⁠—

Guest:              All right, because sometimes when I get smacked with the wall of sad, it will become like heaving, like I need to barf or just sobbing without air vibes. So the thing about the chest was like, "Oh yeah. This is⁠—mm-hmm."

Jessica:            Okay. That's why it goes there. Okay.

Guest:              Yeah. So do I let myself do those body things for a little bit and then breathe into it and catch myself?        

Jessica:            So, if you're going into heaves, if you're going into that kind of extreme, you've probably been feeling sad for a minute before it got that severe. It's probably not 0 to 100, right? You probably go from 0 to 40 and then from 40 to 75 and from 75 to heaves.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I'm not saying⁠—it isn't a one, two, three, but it certainly doesn't go 0 to 120.

Guest:              Right. So, throughout the day, I have been building to this point.

Jessica:            Correct.

Guest:              We're not even talking like my ancient sadness.

Jessica:            Correct.

Guest:              We're talking, like⁠—yes. Okay.

Jessica:            Throughout the day or throughout the hour. It might be that something happened interpersonally with someone, and you felt off about it, and you're like, "Fuck it. I'm just going to power through. I'm going to be fine. My Mars works. I'm going to tell myself it's fine. They don't mind. I don't mind. Everything's fine." But underneath that, you got this sadness, and it's kind of building. And you're like, "Fuck it. I'm going to focus on this. I'm going to read 50 self-help things. I'm going to get a great metaphor in my social media feed." Yeah. I see you. I see you.

Guest:              Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey. Hey.

Jessica:            And then, all of a sudden, you realize you've been holding your breath the whole time. You realize that you feel like you're falling off the cliff, and now you have the heaves. So it's important to be able to clock where it begins because it's just like with any kind of physiological ailment. The sooner you catch it, the more options you have for treating it.

And what's happening on those moments where all of a sudden you got the heaves or whatever it is, it's that you're doing such a good job of ignoring yourself and repressing your emotions, so your emotions had to get to that level to get your attention. I'm not saying that that's what happens with physical illness, but I'm saying that's what happens with your emotions because here's the thing. You have a really strong will, and you have the capacity to use your will to do what you do, which is press down and ignore your feelings, control your feelings, until all of a sudden you're not able to do it.

And I will reiterate that when it comes to anxiety in any way related to Neptune, we always are holding our breath, literally holding our breath. And that's why it hits you in your chest, because you have that weird interaction with a person, and you tell yourself it's okay even though you know it's not okay. But you worked it out in your brain in a moment. You probably start holding your breath then.

And that will lead you⁠—because we know how bodies work. They need oxygen. It's one of their primary tenants. So it'll lead you to needing more air. And so what do you do? Because the more you need air, the more sad you feel when you start to feel your feelings. And you get into your body; you feel sad. So you just hold your breath and you stay away from the body.

So, when you say all day, I think this can happen over the course of 25 minutes that you can go from 0 to 120.

Guest:        Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica:            You have a pretty quick⁠—because your body runs through things. It doesn't [crosstalk].

Guest:              Is that still the Mars?

Jessica:            It's a lot of the things. I could name you all the things. It's not exclusive to Mars. Certainly, Mars is a part of it.

Guest:              Okay. Sure.

Jessica:            But you do run through things pretty quickly in your system, which⁠—

Guest:              Physically, emotionally, mentally⁠—

Jessica:            All the things.

Guest:              All the things. Cool. Cool.

Jessica:            Yeah. All the things. All the things. And so that doesn't mean you make progress or you don't make progress. It just⁠ kind of explains why things get so dramatic so quickly inside of you, because what might take somebody else several days or a week to work through, for you, you're just obsessing until it explodes in your system five minutes later. And that has something to do⁠—that Mercury/Pluto conjunction, one of the ways I like to describe it⁠—I don't know if you've ever been in a Japanese sunken tub. They're spectacular.

Guest:              What is a sunken tub? Do I need to google images?

Jessica:            A Japanese sunken tub is⁠—it's narrow. It's really narrow, and it's really deep. So it's a spectacular bathing experience or spa-like experience if you ever get your buns in it.

Guest:              Okay. Okay.

Jessica:            But it's deep, but it's more narrow. That's what is the important part of this metaphor.

Guest:              Gotcha.

Jessica:            And that is how your thinking goes when you are trying to avoid something. So, when you're in a state of abandonment of self because you don't know how to tolerate the emotions, your thinking gets really, really narrow, deep and narrow. Deep and narrow. And that's not your natural way. Your natural way is expansive and deep.

Guest:              Oh, it is?

Jessica:            Yes. Think about when you're in your happy place and you're doing things you find interesting.

Guest:              Oh. Gotcha. Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Expansive and deep. When you are in a state of⁠—

Guest:              That's a lot. Expansive and deep? Is that allowed?

Jessica:            Yeah. Absolutely. It's allowed.

Guest:              There's space for that? Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. There's a limitless space. There's a limitless space for it.

Guest:              Love that.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              But then…

Jessica:            But then, when you're dealing with challenging emotions and self-worth and all of this⁠—again, we're dealing with the core issue of empathy⁠—what occurs is you end up being unable to step into expansiveness or stay in expansiveness because in the expansiveness is all the things you're trying to avoid feeling about yourself or feeling about your situation, which is why you go narrow and deep. And this is, again⁠—

Guest:              To avoid all of the infinite everything that I don't want.

Jessica:            Yeah. And it's really not infinite. It's⁠—

Guest:              Allegedly. But I think I don't want.

Jessica:            Yeah. Right. And it's not even everything, but it is the emotions that you're actively abandoning. So you might be actively abandoning, "I'm slightly embarrassed because I did something awkward. Not a big deal." But because you've done such a good and a habitual job of abandoning those feelings and repressing those feelings, it's not just about, "Oh, I did this awkward thing and it was kind of embarrassing." It's about every time you did anything awkward and it was embarrassing and all of the worst things you ever said to yourself when you were 7 years old or 14 years old.

Guest:              Mm-hmm, and the geopolitical implications of⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. All of it. All of it. All of it. And so that is where it becomes really challenging to hold on to empathy because how can you hold on to empathy, repress your emotions, and abandon yourself all at once? Kind of hard. Yeah.

Guest:              My will says, "Watch me." But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Exactly. That's exactly it. I mean, I would say that's your ego, honey, but yes. Agreed. Agreed. Your ego says, "Watch me."

Guest:              Oh, right. The ego. The Mars. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. And so the work of it is to just notice that it's happening. And as you notice that it's happening, see if you can make a slightly different choice, not a dramatically different choice. This is why I'm like, 30 seconds. Stay with the emotions for 30 seconds. It is those small shifts that make a world of difference. And what so many of your parts tell you is, "Either I fix it all now, or I repress it all now because I cannot bear to tolerate any part of it." And it can, again, be something as small as, "I embarrassed myself and was awkward to somebody I don't even care about." It's not always that deep.

Guest:              Yeah. I could get a lot of practice in with that one. So we'll go with⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, it looks like it. It looks like it. But it's not because you embarrass yourself, but it's just because that looks like it's a sensitive spot for you. I will say⁠—

Guest:              Wait. What do you mean, it's not because I embarrass myself?

Jessica:            It's not because you embarrass yourself more than somebody else does. It's just because⁠—

Guest:              It's just because I'm sensitive to it. Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—you're sensitive to⁠—that's one of your triggers. And we all have triggers. This is the thing about triggers, is that you, me, and 30 other people could be standing in a line, and the same thing could happen to each and every one of us, and it could only trigger half of us. And those of us who get triggered by it, we could all be triggered for completely different reasons, and we can respond to, hold, and experience those triggered emotions and mental complexes in radically different ways.

So this is the thing to really keep in mind when we get triggered because the trigger doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It just means that you have a wound that hasn't healed, and every time a trigger occurs to that wound, it's like the scab comes off and it's a raw, open wound again. And whenever that wound originally occurred, whatever age you were, you're that age again.

Guest:        Gotcha.

Jessica:            That coping mechanism is just waiting for you at that age. For you, a lot of this⁠, because we see the Moon square to Saturn, we know was around the 14-year-old age, right? So that would have been, yeah, a major time for you. We could also look back to between four and seven years old to see major, major stuff for you.

Guest:              What was the math on that with the Moon and the Saturn?

Jessica:            The way the Saturn works is in seven-year cycles.

Guest:              Oh. I see. Yeah.

Jessica:            So we look for 7 years old, 14 years old, da, da, da, da, da, leading up to a Saturn Return. That is where coping mechanisms were established. And now, whenever your Moon/Saturn gets triggered, you're 14 again.

Guest:              We are flung back then. Yeah. Oh God.

Jessica:            Yeah. So your coping mechanisms are right back there. And as a Moon in Capricorn with a Saturn square, at that age, you were mature. You were like the oldest person⁠—

Guest:              Quote unquote. Sure.

Jessica:            Right. Right. Well, but yes, right? Yes and no, and yes and no, and yes and no.

Guest:              Yeah. Okay. Fair. Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Right? Because the thing about that Saturn/Moon square and having a Moon in Capricorn is it does incline you to be one of those kids that the adults around you say, "You're mature for your age. I'm not worried about you. You can handle this." Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And so the coping mechanisms we develop when adults are treating us like adults instead of the children that we are⁠—they don't age well. They don't age well because at the end of the day, what you truly need is a lot of nurturance and a lot of⁠—not babying, but TLC.

Guest:              How did you know I don't like the babying?

Jessica:            No, you hate the babying.

Guest:              Yeah. How do I discern between what is babying and what is nurturing?

Jessica:            That's a great question. So this is the tricky thing here. You got your IC, which is the lowest point of the birth chart⁠—the IC, the fourth-house cusp, Venus, and the Moon in Cap. And that indicates that what you really need is for people⁠—and you are people, so this is how you treat yourself as well as how others treat you⁠—to show up with behaviors consistently that express nurturance and care. So nurturance and care we can think of in classic matriarchal and patriarchal ways. We need both. We need both, right? When it comes to self-care, it's about making sure you brushed your teeth and ate enough food that your body is okay and drink enough water⁠—the basics.

Guest:              Oh boy, is that a topic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Right. Right. The basics are super important. And they're quick to go, right? Because that Capricorn stuff can be very punishing. It's like these are rewards or punishments.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. One thing is being a good daddy to yourself, and the other thing is being a good mommy to yourself.

Guest:              Oh boy.

Jessica:            And that's something we all have to struggle with, right? And for those of us who don't have that model in our lived experience, it's all the harder. But I don't know that it's especially easy for anyone, to be fair, because it's one of the things that's very hard about becoming an adult.

Guest:              Yeah. It's a spectrum of ouch.

Jessica:            It is. And it's also a spectrum of learning how to love yourself and others in appropriate ways, like self-appropriate ways or ways that are appropriate to a relationship.

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Jessica:            If we come back to that Mars, that Mars is like, "I need proof." And that's what fucks you up, is the search for proof, because when you're trying to get proof from yourself or from others, "Okay, I've done this right," or, "Okay, I'm lovable," or, "Okay, what I did wasn't that bad," or, "I've done what I needed to do to create repair"⁠—whatever it is, that Mars can be needy-greedy and be like, "I need more proof. I need more proof. I need more proof." So we're back to the core issue for you of figuring out how to sit with the disquiet, uncertainty, sadness.

Guest:              Without dry heaving and running away.

Jessica:            Correct.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Well, if you're sitting with it, you're not doing any of those things. True story. All facts. Absolutely. Yes.

Guest:              Okay. So sitting with it is literally just like, "Oh, we're breathing. We're noticing. Ohoho, spicy," a couple of dramatic tears and [indiscernible 00:41:13]?

Jessica:            Interesting. Interesting. Interesting.

Guest:              This is me looking for the proof again.

Jessica:            Yes. Exactly.

Guest:              I'm sorry.

Jessica:            No, no, no. This is perfect. This is exactly why I picked your question, because what you're doing is you're asking me the core questions underneath one of the things I say the most, and that is, I think, really foundational to finding peace with yourself over the course of your human lifetime. I remember when I first started trying to go to yoga, before you were born, and when I did, everyone was like, "You're going to go there, and you're going to relax."

And I would go to my yoga class, and I'd be like, "When does the relaxation begin? I'm so stressed. Everyone gets this. I don't get this. My knees hurt. I'm not relaxing." And I was so fixated on trying to get the benefit that everyone else was getting that I was not in my own skin. I was not in my own experience. And it took me a long time to realize, "This isn't for me."

Guest:              Yoga is just a no-no.

Jessica:            "Oh. This just isn't for me. Is this for me? It's a no." And for me, it was really a process of only noticing what I was feeling instead of what I thought I was supposed to feel or what I was noticing everyone else feeling.

Guest:              Oh God.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So that metaphor works for you. Fine. Okay. Got you. Got you. Okay. Good. Good. So feeling the feelings⁠—let's come right back to this kind of core issue. Hold on. State your full name again.

Guest:              All right. [redacted]. Do you want to hear what people just call me, too? Is that⁠—

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah.

Guest:              Okay. So I get [redacted].

Jessica:            Okay. You don't like things to slow down. That's really what's hard for you, is when things slow down, because⁠—did you have a stint of depression in your youth?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Stint is putting it mildly.

Jessica:            Okay. Most humans who have a Moon/Saturn square, especially with Capricorn in the mix, as you do, experience depression at around that 14-year-old mark.

Guest:              Yeah. That's when it⁠—like, 15 was⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            When it was torture city.

Guest:              Yeah. Oh yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. So what it then does is that it gives you this trigger when you start to feel sad and bad because, of course, 14 is a hormonal time, so also, when hormones kick in, that certain kind of sad and bad, the system is like, "Oh fuck. I know what this is. This is me losing years of my life."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            "I know what this is. This is me losing my light. I know what this is. This is the worst feeling possible." And so, as soon as you've identified it as the thing that fucked you up back in the day, there's this survival mechanism that says, "Get away. You're okay. Be happy. Find something great. Find something different. Find something better." That is really important to name. You're a writer, eh? You write creatively?

Guest:              No, not really.

Jessica:            Are you lying?

Guest:              No. I really don't. I don't sit down and write that much. I'm trying to get into that a bit more. I don't know. I had a little YouTube channel when I was 12, and that was a lot of writing and sitting and talking to myself for like hundreds of hours.

Jessica:            Oh damn.

Guest:              But I've moved away from that because of all of the [indiscernible 00:44:13].

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              So yeah. I don't know. It's a really⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Well, I'm going to give you an exercise. And it can be done through voice notes in your phone. It can be done through video, on your computer, your phone. It can be done through writing. It doesn't matter how you do it, okay? It can be done with your therapist.

Guest:              Just word blah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Word blah. Exactly. And it's talking to that part of you. And you're how old right now? Do the numbers for me. 23?

Guest:              I'm turning 25.

Jessica:            25. 25. Okay. So, from almost 25-year-old you's perspective, talk to 14-year-old you, acknowledging that you've already lived through the depression. You've already lived through a lot of the hard things. You have learned a lot of shit. There's a lot of shit you've yet to know. But still, talk to that inner part of you, and really develop a relationship. And the reason why I said do it through writing is because this is a creative project. It's a therapeutic project. It is not nonfiction. It is really about developing a relationship with you, striving to understand that part of you that is still really terrified of having to do everything on your own and feeling just completely weighted down by your responsibilities and the lack of support that you felt at that time.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And being able to do that from almost-25-year-old you's perspective is really valuable because you are not that person. For all the problems you may or may not have, you are resourceful. You do know how to ask for support. And you know you have people around you who will support you, even if they don't always do the right thing or whatever. You know that you're not 14-year-old you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so having a conversation between those two parts is a meaningful part of the answer of, "How do I develop a more empathetic relationship with my own damn self?" because it's, in part, being able to recognize that you're not that 14-year-old self, and also, that 14-year-old you lives inside of you forever. It needs to be integrated.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It needs to be cared for because that part didn't get cared for the way it needed.

Guest:              All right. Sounds like a lot of work and crying. Will do it.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's work and crying. Part of this exercise is, if you start to do it and you find you're disassociating the ways that you tend to, which are really fun and dynamic⁠—

Guest:              Thank you.

Jessica:            ⁠—or you find that the emotions are just like, "I just don't want to feel these emotions," fucking respect that. Say to yourself, "Oh. I'm noticing I'm out of my heart, out of my body, and in my head."

Guest:              Okay. Don't grin and bear it and suffer through the⁠—yeah. Don't repress the repressing⁠—

Jessica:            No. No. This is not a Sisyphus ball.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Correct. This is a process of cultivating empathy within the self. And so what this looks like is being able to recognize, "Okay. I have been doing this for 30 seconds, and I'm already activated. Boom. That's really good information. I'm going to go take a walk around the block. I'm going to do something nice for me, and I'm going to recognize that I'm activated. And that's really good information for me to have."

                        Being able to then⁠—maybe you're going to do the writing exercise or the speaking exercise for like 25 minutes, and then you're going to realize, "Oh shit. Now I'm getting activated." And then you can start to notice, "What actually activated me? I'm going to take notes on the things that activated me, and I will come back to it at a different time," because part of what you're doing is you're building trust between your current adult self and the part of you that doesn't trust anyone⁠—because why should you⁠—and that doesn't know how to trust yourself. Right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So you're building trust by being a good parental figure to that teen inner kid inside of you that just fucking needed that and didn't get that the way that it needed.

Guest:              Yeah. So we're kind of re-jigging the Mercury process to be more involved in the emotion.

Jessica:            This is Moon/Saturn. Yeah. This is more Moon/Saturn. And we're using your⁠—

Guest:              Well, because the part that you said about the⁠—when you notice, "Oh, what led to this thing?" I could see that becoming the smorgasbord soup of the Mercury/Pluto process.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, your comfort zone is talking. So, whether it's talking through the written word, talking through your mouth, doesn't matter. Your comfort zone, where things kind of⁠—Sagittarius is⁠—it's a fireworksy kind of zodiac sign. And so, for you, that's where your fireworks live in communication. So that's where you want to go. But you eventually need to use your body as an outlet.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So, if you're going to do any kind of triggering stuff, dancing in your bedroom is going to be an important part of dealing with it, like using the body. And using the body as an outlet and a tool is really valuable.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Now, I want to just kind of slow it down a little bit. I've given you a bunch of advice.

Guest:              My favorite. Yep.

Jessica:            Have I answered your question? Is there anything that's kind of lingering around it?

Guest:              I don't know. I think I'm just frustrated with how simple it is, which is what I suspected going into it. But⁠—

Jessica:            Let me give you this little piece of validation. The most difficult things in the realm of our psychology and our emotional maturity and coping mechanisms are simple. And simple doesn't mean not deep. Simple simply means⁠—think of it this way. Think of an essential oil. Have you ever gotten an essential oil anywhere near your eye or on your skin?

Guest:              Oh yeah.

Jessica:            It can burn because it is the most simple form of the oil, of the herb that has been put in oil form. And it's not diluted. It's not nothing. It's just simple. And so that Pluto dynamic in your chart says if it's simple, it's not smart. It's not expansive. It's not good enough. But the truth is simple is the most difficult thing. And when it comes to emotional intelligence, what is required of us in emotional healing is the most simple thing, not allowing ourselves to be distracted by the complexity.

                        Simple doesn't mean stupid, and it doesn't mean surface. And it's really important because I think that you had clear messaging around that, that there is really smart, and smart was complicated, and smart was crafty, and smart was getting into the details. And that is a form of smart, absolutely. You have that form of smart. But that form of smart can lead us down really stupid paths because we're ignoring all the basics, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Right.

Guest:              Which is pretty stupid.

Jessica:            Well, I mean, we don't have to judge [crosstalk], but yeah.

Guest:              No. Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, there's different ways of assessing intelligence. And I think about this a lot with animals. People often talk about how animals are stupid, or a lot of people will say that even their animal friends are stupid. "Oh, my dog is so dumb." But a lot of times, what they're showing is exceptional emotional intelligence, but a different kind of cognitive intelligence or even relational intelligence. And it's important to hold space for all of it.

The truth is, when you get into the simple stuff, the emotional stuff, you can feel that you're stuck between 7 and 14 years old. Every other part of you isn't, but the emotional parts are. You are like most humans. It is not exclusive to you⁠—trust. You know what I mean? I'm that way. You're that way. Everyone is that way in some parts of us, and that's just because of the human condition. And so it's about⁠—coming full circle to your question is, can you be empathetic enough with yourself to say to yourself, "Yeah, I'm a human. I'm not perfect. And I'm absolutely struggling in this place. And when I struggle, I don't just struggle against myself. I struggle out of myself, and ouch. Ew. Yuck."

And can you be kind of graceful with yourself around that? Graceful even when you say to yourself, "Okay. I did this thing. It was embarrassing. It was terrible. Now I feel deep wells of shame. And then I did all these things to act out and distract myself from my deep wells of shame, and now I have triple shame. I can't even keep track of why I feel bad. Now I just feel bad on top of bad on top of bad." And then be like, "Oh. I'm doing this pattern. I lost track of the simple, basic stuff." At that moment, can you say, "And I'm going to be kind to myself around the fact that it took me five days to get there"?

Guest:        I did all the stupid⁠—yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah, or, "It took me six months to figure it out." Each and every one of us, no matter how cognitively smart we are or are not, eventually realize, "Shit. The last 20 years, I've been doing this thing, and it was against all of my best interests. And I thought I was doing something smart." It's just part of the human condition. And if you can be graceful about that and kind about that and empathetic about that for other people, then you know you can do it for yourself. You just haven't figured out how to develop that habit.

                        That is kind of what I wanted to make sure to, right around the end of our conversation⁠—which is that I do see that, sure, you can be petty. Whatever. I see. I see. But also, you have the ability and the willingness to see when people put in effort and to hold respect for that effort. And within that, you have the capacity to be very forgiving. I don't know that you always are⁠—Pluto/Mercury. But you definitely have the capacity to be very forgiving, and even of things that really sucked.

And if you have the ability to do that for others, then you for sure can do that for yourself. It's just a question, again, of developing the supports around your foundations to do that, which is kind of what we've been talking about.

Guest:        Yeah, and which would be going back to the scabby part, the scabby age.

Jessica:      Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:        Gotcha.

Jessica:            It's letting yourself feel the feels. And as that happens, I want to say, again, when we get off the call, you may be sad. And if you're sad⁠—

Guest:              I will definitely.

Jessica:            Okay. You're like, "Bitch, I'm sad now."

Guest:              I am current⁠—yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm so sorry. But also, you can be sad, and then maybe be like, "Okay. I'm going to distract myself. I'm going to grab my phone. I'm going to scroll," or whatever it is. If you can, breathe into your body for 30 seconds and wait, and then do the thing. It's just interrupting the habit. You don't have to build a new habit. All you have to do is interrupt the old habit.

Guest:              Distracting a habit.

Jessica:            Yeah. Distracting.

Guest:              Abandoning the body and the being. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Correct. Correct. So it's tolerating it for 30 seconds longer than you want to. It's not doing it for two minutes. That would be bananas. You only want to start with 30 seconds because it's a goal you can achieve most of the time⁠—not all the time. And that's okay. And again, this is simple, and it's small. But it is the building block for you having peace down the line, like actual being able to have peace in your damn skin, which⁠—I know you've had moments of being able to be like, "Oh, is this how the people feel?" But you can achieve it longer. I see that you can.

Guest:              How do you see that? Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's really about making decisions and being willing to fail, being willing to fail and to be empathetic towards yourself about all your failures. The only way to not fail is to not try. And those of us who don't try don't evolve, and then you're stuck forever. So that's a fucking failure. Fuck. Right? A.k.a. there's no way around it. Failure is a part of life. And being able to kind of hold that wisdom in your mind⁠—you've already got that. Being able to hold that wisdom in your heart is much harder for you, and that's because you're a human. It's not because you're broken. It's just because you're a fucking person, and it's hard for most of us.

                        So it's like we all have the things that are wrong with us, so giving yourself permission to just be graceful with that and gentle with that. So, when we get off the call, for the rest of your day, if you find yourself picking apart anything you did or didn't do, did or didn't say during this conversation, I want you to notice it. And then, step two, on a scale from one to ten, how activated do you feel? You know what I mean when I say activated, right?

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Where is your anxiety starting to bubble, right?

Guest:              Yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            So it's like, "Oh, I feel like this is like"⁠—you're not going to ask yourself that question if it's a 1. You're always going to ask yourself the question if it's at least four.

Guest:              Yeah, yeah. I was going to say three, but sure. Yeah, yeah. A four.

Jessica:            Three works. Whichever number lands for you. So what you want to do is just notice it, and be like, "Okay." So, first, you're clocking it. Then you're numbering it. And then you're asking yourself, "Is there anything I need?" So you might say, "I need a distraction. I need"⁠—

Guest:              Water.

Jessica:            Water. An ice cream cone.

Guest:              Wiggling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Exactly. Wiggling. That's a good one. But the first two steps are the most important. You clock it, step one. You number it, step two. Then you ask yourself what you need, step three. And step three can be, "I need to distract myself and do something stupid." Great. At least you're aware of what you're doing and what the motivation is.

Guest:              Yeah. And you're making the choice, and there's the agency within. Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Correct. Correct. Yeah. And that also⁠—it's just about the interruption. It's really about the interruption.

Guest:              Of the automatic habit.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That's where healing occurs. And it's slow, but it works. It absolutely works.

Guest:              Life is long and short and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And also, we don't need meteoric transformations. I mean, it sounds fancy, but I can assure you that meteoric transformations are often quite challenging.

Guest:              Ow. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. This is about an integrating and sustaining. In other words, Moon in Capricorn, it is about maturing and growing up. Maturing doesn't just happen with age. I mean, there's a level on which it does, but maturing happens by learning from your lived experiences. And this is something that you're really good at and, also, on this particular thing that we're talking about, you really struggle with. Can you find a way to be okay with still learning something that you think you "should" know or should get?

                        And again, this question of, "How do you be empathetic with yourself? What the hell is empathy with the self?"⁠ is such a core question that I think all of us struggle with. And part of why it's such a core piece of my work of talking about empathy and talking about emotional maturity and growth is because of how hard it is. It's literally why. I mean, it's because it's so hard. And when we strive to really deal with this stuff, even when we're not there yet, I honestly feel that it creates a foundation within ourselves that everything else has an easier time thriving within. And if we only do the⁠—

Guest:              Yeah. That's why I thought to ask. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's like the base of the chart. It's the core.

Guest:              And then to actually be empathetic for other people in a sustainable way. Blah, blah, blah.

Jessica:            Exactly. No, but that's exactly it. And I will say that there are many people who develop their cognitive intelligence, their physical intelligence, their goals, their dreams, their relationships, but not this core empathy towards the self and others piece. And what happens is, eventually, when you're closer to my age, things start to break off, and you start to realize that you don't have a foundation inside of yourself. Age doesn't fix this. So dealing with it intentionally is what fixes this.

Guest:              Right. Okay.

Jessica:            And that's just⁠—it's part of the human experience, again. So, again, being really gentle with yourself is the damn move.

Guest:              The nurturing, not the babying.

Jessica:            Yes. Nurturing, not the babying. And so, for you⁠—

Guest:              The loving parent.

Jessica:            ⁠—it might be more of a paternal vibe than a maternal vibe, right? And I think that different people have different imprints on what those words mean. When I say it, ideally speaking, the paternal vibe is kind of providing for, and the maternal vibe⁠—and this is not about fucking gender roles or men and women or da da da. You know? It's just going with the archetypes here. And then the maternal would be nurturing. It's really just supporting with the TLC, whereas the paternal would be the supporting through sustainable structure, so, again, eating and drinking and doing the material things.

We need both. We need the house, but we need the house to be a home. And this is not just⁠—and I'm referring to tenth house/fourth house in astrology, but I'm also referring to the home that is your meat suit in this life. It's not enough to take care of our external affairs. We must take care of our internal affairs so we feel at home in our own skin, and that as the meat suit evolves and the way that the world responds to as you grow into an adult and then maybe an older adult and then an old-ass adult⁠—whatever it is, as we evolve, if we have a home inside of ourselves that we can kind of futz with and return to and evolve with, then it's a lot easier. It's a lot easier to live.

I think that you are a lot more capable of doing this than you believe yourself to be. But it's really about just being in a long-term process with yourself. That's the move, is being in a long-term process with yourself and giving yourself space to have good days and bad days with it.

Guest:        Yeah.

Jessica:      Yeah. And there's your reading, my dear.

Guest:        Thank you.

Jessica:      My pleasure.