Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I'll be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica:            Grace, welcome to Ghost. Tell me what you would like a reading about today.

Grace:             Thank you, Jessica. Very excited to be here. I am going to read you my question. So, "Greetings, Jessica. I am in my second Saturn Return in my tenth house. Right as Pluto ingressed into Aquarius and my Saturn Return was approaching, I found out that my position at the large corporation I worked at was being eliminated and I was getting laid off. I rejoiced. The Universe cut off the golden handcuffs for me. I would have never left this job. The salary and perks were just too good. So the disruption created by Pluto created spaciousness and freedom for me, which doesn't feel very Saturn Return-ish, or at least how I understand Saturn to be. So my question is, does Saturn have more in store for me during my second Saturn Return that might not feel so freeing and spacious? Thank you for all of the content and knowledge you share and for your general awesome vibe, Jessica."

Jessica:            Thank you. That's very kind. So we're not going to share your birth data, but you are a 1965 baby, which means you've got Saturn in Pisces. And it's at 6 degrees and 32 minutes. So there's so much to say in response to your question. Let me start first with the second Saturn Return because the internet talks about Saturn Return as though it's this thing that happens at 29 only, and that's really just because the most chronically online people are in their 20s and 30s. But the truth is we have the second Saturn Return.

                        And the second Saturn Return is majorly consequential because you're at the closure of a cycle that you started at 30 and at the start of a cycle that ends at 90, approximately. So kind of a big deal. For a lot of people, it is a really challenging time. And it can also be a time of everything coming together and almost like a validation of your efforts, which I'm hearing is some of what's happening for you.

                        But let me just pull back⁠—we're going to get more into the Saturn Return specifically in a minute⁠—to say when that news came about your job, was it in May of this year or earlier?

Grace:             It was March.

Jessica:            It was March. So I actually don't think it was Pluto that did this because while you have your Venus, Midheaven, Mercury, and Sun all in Aquarius⁠—it's a butt-ton of Aquarius⁠—when Pluto crossed into Aquarius, it was already in your ninth house. But what was happening at the same time is that Uranus was forming a square to your Midheaven. And Uranus square the Midheaven is a once-in-a-lifetime transit, does not happen to everyone, is not in any way related to Pluto ingressing into Aquarius, not in any way related to your Saturn Return, but what it does is it creates sudden and unexpected changes to your career that kind of come out of left field and that offer you opportunity for greater autonomy and freedom. Does that sound pretty much like what happened?

Grace:             Wow. Yes, exactly.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. That transit, by the way⁠—it was a year-long transit in total, but it ended in May. So whatever was happening for the ten months leading up to it was probably disruptions not just at work but around your own ideas of what you wanted for yourself. Were you experiencing that?

Grace:             I wouldn't say it was Uranus disruptions, but it was definitely, "What are you doing? Things need to change." We made a move. We relocated last year, and part of the reason why was because I needed more space. I needed a home office for work. Sure, it was great. Didn't really change anything at work. I wasn't sure that it would or not. There was stuff going⁠—it's a corporate environment, acquisitions, layoffs. It was a very unstable environment for the past year, not to me personally but just around me. And I think it had happened so much that I was a little bit numb to it, which is not a great environment for me on many, many levels.

Jessica:            You say it wasn't very Uranian, and what I think you mean is it wasn't explosive. But what you're describing is Uranian. And this is something that I think is really important on a lot of layers of your question, is that Uranian energy, Saturn Return⁠—it can hand you your ass with a side of ass. But it can also actually just show you the consequences of your efforts⁠—Saturn⁠—or open doors and windows that you're like, "Oh shit. I could actually just climb through this window. It's on the ground floor. It's not a big deal. I'm not going to get hurt. I could just make a change." And it disrupts things in such a way where you're like, "There is a door there. I didn't think that was a door. That window opens? I thought it was sealed."

Uranus is not inherently going to fuck your life up. Sometimes it's just, "I made a move. Everything around me wasn't stable, and I had to respond to that." So I want to just first start with Uranus square the Midheaven⁠—one of the most common things that happens, or two of the most common things that happens, are you physically move your home, and some sudden unexpected thing happens with your job, and it results in greater freedom. Now, greater freedom is not always a good thing to people.

So, had you gotten this "greater freedom" of losing your golden handcuffs but you weren't financially or psychologically ready, the identical circumstances would feel really differently, right?

Grace: Uh-huh.

Jessica:            But I'm guessing that you are in a place where, first of all, financially it's not fucking you up. Is that correct?

Grace:             That is correct. In fact, one of the things I was most grateful for is I have never been in a better financial situation for something like this to happen.

Jessica:            Great. Congratulations. And this is where we start to look at the Saturn Return because the Saturn Return, the second Saturn Return, speaks to the consequences of how you have and have not prepared for your material reality as you age. The reason why the second Saturn Return can be so challenging is because it really requires us to deal with the consequences of⁠—oh, I don't know⁠—28 years of conduct. And also, it requires us to deal with our physical health as we age and have to confront mortality issues in a whole new way because getting laid off in your 30s or 40s is going to feel different because you're in a different stage of your career. And I think, in particular, if you have a career in the corporate world and you're a human female, that's especially challenging. It's not an easy place to grow old in or grow older in.

                        So the fact that you are prepared is a really important thing for you to take space in your life to pat yourself on the back because when things go well during Saturn transits, it's because of our efforts. It's not because⁠—like with Jupiter, it can be luck, or Uranus, it can be dumb luck. But with Saturn, it's because of your own efforts. So you must have done things to invest in your own finances but also your own ability to weather some storm. Is that correct?

Grace:             Yes, it is. And a lot of it⁠—my husband is nine years older than me. He's already at Social Security age. And sometimes I would feel like I just wasn't always thinking about that. I've just been going along in my career, working, working, working. Then, all of a sudden, we're getting Social Security things for him, and I was like, "Oh shit. We gotta start⁠—okay. That's where he's at, which kind of means that's where I'm at, by a little bit."

                        So yeah. I started to be mindful of this last third of our lives. And I wanted it to be secure, to have some kind of security, some kind of little something to fall back on, and not hardcore, not like, "Oh my God," not anxiety ridden or anything, just like, "Okay." And I will say that one of the⁠—I hate even using this term, Jessica, but one of the positive things that came out of the COVID time⁠—and it was almost like I had to⁠—I didn't even realize it until, all of a sudden, I would have all this money in my bank account, and I'm like, "Why is all this money here? That's so unusual. Am I missing something? Am I not paying some kind of bills?"

                        And I just realized, "Oh, we're not doing anything. We're not doing anything." I mean, that was just a huge positive thing to come out of a horrible, horrible situation for us, which took me some time to be able to kind of reconcile and integrate and not feel guilty about feeling that way.

Jessica:            I mean, I think it's one of the things where, for those of us who could do our work remotely, who have that privilege⁠—

Grace:             Privilege. That's it exactly.

Jessica:            Yeah. It is a privilege, and I think it's really important to be able to acknowledge and name our privileges and not feel shame around them⁠—feel gratitude around them⁠—because I think what happens when we start to feel embarrassed or shameful about our privileges is then we kind of hide, and we're not generous in our abundance and we're not able to tolerate being present with how a lot of people did not have that privilege.

                        So I hear what you're saying and how you're saying it, and also, congratulations that you were able to do that. You ask me, "Fuck. Things are going good. How is that possible? What's going on? I know it's my Saturn Return." So that brings me to a question I have for you, which is, are you in a position where you're going to try to retire, or are you looking for other employment?

Grace:             My goal, my long-term goal, is to not get married to another company ever again, to be able to have my health benefits not attached to a job or a corporation, to be able to have fluidity in how I work, do project work, work some/don't work some, work some/don't work some, and define my lifestyle as semi-retired.

Jessica:            Okay. So what you're talking about is contracting, being a consultant. And is what you want to be a consultant for corporations?

Grace:             It could be. Interestingly, as soon as I got laid off, work just was coming to me through people that I had connections with through my job. I work in television and casting, and really in casting testimonials in commercials. I did a big casting gig right after⁠. I'm working on some tech recruiting now for someone I know through my previous job. So the work has been trickling in, and it's been nice. And I'm grateful for that, and I have not had to put a lot of effort into that at all. It just has been coming to me.

Jessica:            Great.

Grace:             And it's working.

Jessica:            So let me keep on talking about Uranus. Uranus is the ruling planet to Aquarius. We should not be shocked that Uranus is being a really good friend to you because you're going through another Uranus transit right now. It's Uranus square to Mercury, and it will be over in April of 2025. So you got a nice little chunk this time. And Uranus square Mercury creates upsets. But within upsets⁠—people hear "upsets," and they think, "Oh, I'm going to be upset when things are upset." Not necessarily. Taking all the clothes off the hangers in your closet is upsetting your closet, and that's the best way to actually look at what you have hanging there and go through your shit and get rid of what isn't working.

                        So the upsets that Uranus brings can be opportunities that you never thought would be relevant to you. And so Uranus is squaring Mercury. Mercury is a planet that is conjunct your Midheaven. It's a little bit wide, but it is conjunct your Midheaven. It's in your tenth house conjunct your Sun. And so what's happening now is opportunities are coming through people who you've had connections with, who you've treated well in the past. That's what this means. And I'm assuming that clicks for you, right?

Grace:             Yes, very much so.

Jessica:            What I would say about this is, because you're going through these lovely Uranus transits that⁠—honestly, some people do not have a lovely experience of these transits, but you are, so yay. Because you're going through these Uranus transits at the same time as your Saturn Return⁠—your Saturn Return is active through February of 2024. Because these things are happening at the same time, what's important is to remember your nature and to work within your nature because that's what Saturn teaches us.

                        There is a reason why you married your corporate job, and part of that reason is⁠—and when you first got married to your corporate job, it was a different world and things worked differently. And that was kind of the wisest thing to do if you were in the corporate world, is to be incredibly loyal and to stay forever. It's a different world now, right? But that's not the only reason. It's because you have damn Saturn in Pisces in the tenth house. You have Neptune intercepted in your sixth house.

                        You don't like a lot of disruptions at work. You do like to create a nice feeling around you and to not over-fixate on the big picture, as long as it feels good around you and you're able to do what you have to do. Does that make sense?

Grace:             Absolutely makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. These Uranus transits are going to last you some time because after Uranus square Mercury passes, you have your Sun at 29 degrees of Aquarius. So then Uranus is going to square your damn Sun. So things are going to remain great for experimenting and exploring what's possible, what you enjoy, not finding a single path, but opening up to all the paths that are possible for you between what's an option, what you like, what you're good at, all that kind of stuff⁠—what the industry holds, because as we know, if you're in casting of any kind, the industry is changing within tech, within Hollywood, all that kind of stuff, right?

                        This is what I'm going to say. You have several years of exploring. But within this period, I would really encourage you to stay grounded in the things that you know work for you because you're a grown-ass adult and you've had enough experience. And so one of those things is actually about your work environment. You said you recently moved in the preparation towards your Saturn Return. You moved, and you got a better office, it sounds like, a better home office. This is really helpful.

                        So, again, I'm going to just say good on you. This is really helpful because for you, your physical environment that you work in, when you have Neptune in the sixth house, is the most important thing⁠—the smells, the sounds. It's like night and day difference of whether or not you're productive or happy at work. Does that make sense?

Grace:             It so makes sense. It was a tech company that I worked at. We had an open floor plan.

Jessica:            Oh, I hate those.

Grace:             It was a nightmare for me.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Grace:             It was a nightmare. This is my office that I'm sitting in, and it's my Zen⁠. I have it set up exactly⁠—this is my space. And it makes a huge difference in my ability to focus and no distractions and just, like you said, a general good, positive vibe, the vibe that I am setting.

Jessica:            Correct. This part of what's happening for you is really, really lovely. Now, the thing about the Saturn Return, the second Saturn Return in particular, is that many people who experience a second Saturn Return have kind of this high point in their career where it's not just what you've been doing over the last few years, because the Saturn Return is a closure of a 28-and-a-half-year-long cycle. It's how you've been conducting yourself in public for a couple decades, how you've been organizing not just your professional life but the balance between your professional and your personal needs, how you have or have not navigated your mental health and your emotional health within these things. They're all really big parts of that second Saturn Return.

                        And so it's interesting to me that for you right now, you're dealing with nothing but the positive. And it's not bad or good. I mean, obviously, it's awesome for you. But it's important to just kind of maintain curiosity and openness about that because what you're getting now is really clear validation on all the things that you've done that have worked, including, it sounds like, having made compromises that made you slightly miserable for a period of time.

Grace:             Yes. Long time.

Jessica:            Interesting. Yeah. Okay. A long time. So that's really interesting, right, is that you're getting validation on how that worked for you. And what is likely to come at some point, because your Saturn Return is lasting over the course of several months⁠—it's important for you to consider how it also didn't work for you, like⁠—I don't know⁠—had you left five years ago, do you think this would have happened as well? Are the connections that are coming through for you right now⁠—are they connections you made before five years ago? I'm just throwing five years out of nowhere. Or is it maybe just the time, now there's an industry, now that there's a market for independent contractors at your level doing what you do, but there wasn't an industry for it before? Because part of what Saturn teaches us is time.

And I think that what's really hard to fully grasp before the mid- to late 30s is how one's opportunities are specifically geared to the generation you're in. We have completely different opportunities in different stages of our evolution based on the technology and the economy and war/not war, all these kinds of things. I say all of this because Saturn at the top of the chart teaches us⁠—and when I say the top of the chart, I mean the tenth house. Saturn in the tenth house is meant to teach you how to be conscientious about what you want from life and to build towards it.

And a lot of times, when people have Saturn in the tenth, they really fucking struggle with work. And yeah. And a lot of times, folks go the way of convention because it's Saturn. It's like, "Go conventional." And when you add that to your little Aquarius stellium of planets in the tenth and at your Midheaven and we add that to having Saturn in Pisces, how it feels and whether or not it aligns with your values, your⁠—I mean, "convictions" is probably the slightly more accurate word here, but your convictions around what you're doing in the world and who you're working with. Who you're working with is a really, really big thing for you, eh?

Grace: Very.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Grace: Very. As I've gotten older, it's gotten much, much more important.

Jessica:            Yeah. I think it's gotten more important because you've given yourself permission to own that and to be aware of that, because when you were younger, you were probably working so hard to make sure that everyone thought you were doing a good job that you didn't let yourself really focus on, "I'm fucking miserable around this person because I don't like this person."

Grace:             You are hitting on so many things across so many levels, Jessica, and especially Saturn in the tenth. I had a very strong father who really pushed me to get a business degree, all the very⁠—very strong Capricorn father, very, very conventional. "You need to be in business. You're very, very smart. You need to take this very traditional path." And I always resisted that. It never felt right to me, but I just kind of did it.

                        And kind of side note, all this stuff in my tenth house, it's like I've never had a career. I've never had a career path. I've always viewed working as a means to an end to be able to live and enjoy my life. So I've always been a little bit confused by all this tenth-house stuff because I'm like, "Shouldn't I be having some career path?" Things have just kind of come across my way, or I've made things happen. But I've never been like, "I'm going to go to school and study this, and then that's going to be my job for the rest of my life."

Jessica:            Let me speak to that because there's a couple things that are really important in there. One is you say you haven't really had a career path, but at the seat of your second Saturn Return, we know that's a story that you've told yourself. Or maybe you couldn't really see that you built a career path because you so clearly built a career path that the second you got laid off from your corporate job, a career that you built was just waiting for you. Does that make sense?

Grace:             Yes, it does. And the fact that you call it a story that I'm telling myself is fascinating and resonating and definitely calling me out on that. I guess I always thought career path is you go⁠—my dad wanted me to get an MBA or a degree in accounting or something. And that, to me, is career path.

Jessica:            Right. You're thinking very Saturnian. You also, I should name, have a stellium in Virgo. You've got Uranus, Pluto, Moon, and Mars all in Virgo. So, sure, you got this very linear idea that your dad had, your Capricorn dad who was born in what year?

Grace:             '43.

Jessica:            '43. There you go. He was born in the '40s, so his idea of a career path was a doctor goes to medical school; an accountant gets whatever accreditation, and that's a career path. And that is one way of looking at career path. It's a Saturnian way. But you have a stellium in Aquarius, including an Aquarian Midheaven. So, for you, a career path is going to be, "I have this appetizer, and then I have that appetizer, and then I have this tapas, and then I have that one," and it's like a lot of little meals instead of one huge meal. Both of them will get you full. Both of them can give you all your nutrients. But they're different ways of going about eating a meal.

                        So the thing about Aquarius is Aquarius is very much about bite-sized pieces, lots of ideas, lots of things, lots of ideas, lots of things. And part of why I said the story you tell yourself is because of that Mercury, which is sitting right there in Aquarius in between your Midheaven and your Sun. And your narrative is, "Oh, I'm just doing my own thing. If I'm just doing my own thing, that means I don't have a path because it's my own thing," whereas I would say to you doing your own thing is a path. That's a damn path. And clearly, it's a good path for you because look at what's emerged.

                        There's another layer to this, though. Saturn is in Pisces. It's not in an earth sign. It's in fucking Pisces. You've got Neptune, the ruling planet to Pisces, in Scorpio sitting intercepted in your sixth house. And so, for you, when you follow the flow, when you follow the flow and you don't overthink it, when you don't try to contain or control the flow, you have the capacity to land exactly where you're meant to be.

                        Now, I said the capacity because you can follow flow into a dead end just as easily as you can follow flow into a productive place. And I'm guessing over the course of your adult life, you've done both.

Grace:             Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But the thing that we are kind of getting to learn⁠—because Saturn Return is consequences. It's consequential. So part of what we're getting to learn right now is that even those dead ends, even those words, even those times where you're just like, "What the fuck am I even doing here?" led you to a place where you have enough self-awareness about what does and doesn't work, and also what your skills are and your interests are. Right?

Grace:             Very true.

Jessica:            So the thing that⁠—probably heard me say a million times on the pod, which is a failure is only a failure if you don't learn from it. We can gloriously fuck up, but we're never not doing our path; we're just doing our path in different ways at different times. And part of what you have done in your life is prioritize that Saturnian need for security and stability and that tenth-house need, because whether or not it's a yes, you got a little stellium in the tenth house, plus a stellium in Virgo⁠—I mean, of course you're going to err on the side of pragmatics in your own way. So maybe not in the way your dad would have thought, but compared to me, a professional woo-woo, yeah, sure, you erred on the side of pragmatics.

                        But you still did it your way by building connections and community⁠—Aquarius⁠—by being innovative within your field, not in a way that pushed people away, it turns out, but in a way that made people interested in knowing you and working with you. And it turns out it's working well. So, as an astrologer looking at your chart, the thing I would kind of bookmark for your care and consideration is that when you have a corporate job, you have a bunch of different people doing a bunch of different parts. So you only do your part, and then they do their parts. And the business end may not be your strongest part. Have you noticed this?

Grace:             Oh yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Grace:             Oh, so true.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And so I would ask, how are you with invoicing and contracts and all of that kind of stuff that you wouldn't have had to have done in a corporate job?

Grace:             Well, I'm having to invoice people now, so I'm⁠—

Jessica:            Are you doing it?

Grace:             Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. So you figured out how to do it, and you're just fucking doing it.

Grace:             Yeah.

Jessica:            Great.

Grace:             And I'm signing agreements. I mean, luckily, I dealt with agreements. I dealt with releases with my testimonials. They would have questions; I would answer them.

Jessica:            Great.

Grace:             There was a legal component to what I had to deal with that I had to have knowledge about that I also have to have knowledge about now in my contracts with people who are paying me.

Jessica:            Great.

Grace:             I don't want to deal with it any more than I am.

Jessica:            Absolutely. So there's two parts to this. One is I think that some people get business degrees, and some people work for corporations and then just learn what did and didn't work within that business model, and then you apply it to your own self-employment. And I think that that's the move to be making, is to be experimenting with different ways of doing things and recognizing that at a certain point, which you can determine based on⁠—whether it's your money or your time and what it's worth to you, you may need to hire somebody who you generally like and trust⁠—otherwise, it's not worth it⁠—that can do the things that you really don't like doing because those are the things that, when Uranus leaves you, they're going to feel really heavy to you.

                        So those are the things. But again, Uranus isn't leaving you for a number of years. So I think it's until late 2025 or '26. So you got a minute here. But I do think that you're going to have to make decisions about how to manage the business end and that that's going to be a pain in your butt because it's part of why corporations work for you, that all that Neptune in the sixth, Saturn in Pisces, is just like, "I don't want to deal with the container. I want to be creative within the container." But now you don't only have to build the container; you have to maintain the container.

Grace:             (laughs)

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not super fun.

Grace:             I'm going to hire a container maintainer.

Jessica:            Yes. That's exactly what you're looking for. I think they call them an operations person, right? Somebody who can just seriously manage certain basic things, including if you have somebody who, let's say, doesn't pay a bill, if you're the one to follow up with them and to be like, "I really need you to pay this bill," it's a strain on the creative dynamic in the relationship. And so it's nice to have somebody who can do that for you because it allows you to stay in the role that is creative and friendly, and you can have somebody else who's like, "Actually, you signed a contract. Now you owe me 10 percent extra. Come on. What are you doing?" You know what I mean? You don't have to be that person.

                        And realistically, if this goes as well as it seems like it's going, that's what you're going to need to do eventually. So I just want to throw that at you.

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Jessica:            I have to ask, how is your physical health through all of this?

Grace:             I am very glad that you're bringing that up, Jessica⁠—

Jessica:            Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Grace:             ⁠—because I wasn't sure that I was going to be able to insert it into this Saturn Return reading.

Jessica:            Oh yeah. You can.

Grace:             So, yes, I have genetic things that are starting to hit. I've dealt with hypertension since I was 40. Two months ago, my doctor was like, "Okay, your cholesterol is out of control. You've gotta go on a statin." And she said, "And also, you are prediabetic."

Jessica:            Yikes.

Grace:             So I am seeing⁠—I see this played out on my father's side of the family, which is Polynesian, and I saw it play out with my father. All of that, the metabolic syndrome, I'm seeing it play out with my uncle right now. And it's starting to hit me. And part of me is ignoring it and pretending like it's not happening. I love sugar as a drug and as an emotional, soothing tool. And on the one hand, I can reach for that chocolate and consume it while on the other hand being like, "You gotta stop." I don't want to call it a shame spiral, but maybe it is. It's almost like I can go really good into this two duality of thinking and just say, like, "You really need that right now to feel better, but at some point, you're going to have to stop that." Well, that point, now that my doctor's like, "Hi, prediabetes"⁠—that point is now.

Jessica:            That point is now.

Grace:             So I'm so curious to hear what you have to say about this.

Jessica:            Yeah. So, first, I'll say we cannot talk about the second Saturn Return without talking about physiological health. And the reason why is because let's speak in reality terms. You hit the end of your 50s, the start of your 60s; the body starts to show you how it's going to break. And that's not what anyone wants to hear, and I don't enjoy saying it. But it is the truth that this meat suit has a promise, is that it has an expiration date. And the second Saturn Return, we will often have health problems. I would say a lot of people end up with health problems that start to really articulate themselves during that second Saturn Return.

                        So it's not surprising that I brought it up, which⁠—I don't know if that's good news or bad news for you. But there it is. That's the news. Naming your dad's side of the family⁠—so your mom is not Polynesian; is that right?

Grace:             No.

Jessica:            Okay. So having physical issues that are in alignment with your dad's side of the family makes sense because you got all that strong tenth-house stuff. So it gives you kind of this predisposition to having your body aligned with your patrilineage. That's one way of putting it. Here's the other thing. In your birth chart, you have a Saturn/Uranus opposition, as people born in '65 do. That predisposes you towards hypertension, and the hypertension is related to a whole bevy of health issues, and not just heart disease, but I think that there are other things can kind of go wonky with that.

                        So, straight out the gate, I want to say I strongly encourage you to take very seriously your metabolic system and whatever hypertension stuff is showing up, any cardiovascular stuff. You have Saturn and the Sun very close to each other in the tenth house. That means you want to watch out for your heart, your heart health.

Grace:             Okay.

Jessica:            Now the diabetes stuff. I'm going to give you a big ditto on that because you've got Jupiter in your birth chart, and I should say that Uranus is just finishing conjoining your Jupiter. So you've probably been really doubling down on eating foods that are like medicine to you. So I'm sure you've been, in the last year, really doubling down on your sweets. The Uranus conjunction to Jupiter, which is intercepted in your twelfth house, would trigger the part of you that is excessive in how you reward yourself with delicious things. And delicious things could be things you eat. It could be things you wear. You might have any kind of idea about delicious.

                        Your chart articulates that your hormonal system is incredibly sensitive, and your metabolic system is incredibly sensitive. And so, as you are, I'm assuming, postmenopausal⁠—

Grace:             Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Done, done, right?

Grace:             Yep.

Jessica:            As you are in this body as it is changing and kind of settling into itself in new ways, it's going to require being more associated with it. And this is one of the things about the second Saturn Return that most of us fucking hate, is being more associated with the body. And Saturn in Pisces doesn't like that. Neptune in the sixth house, especially intercepted, doesn't like that.

And so this brings us to the quickest and best way to, in a short-term way, be like, "Okay. I feel bad. I feel"⁠—any kind of bad, like anxious, excited, or scared, or bored, or any kind of bad. The best way to make it feel better quickly is to pop something in your mouth that is delicious or to actually do the opposite. You could also skip meals, not eat, because what it does is it creates a different kind of feeling, kind of like a drug. Do you do that as well, skip meals?

Grace:             Well, it's funny that you say that. A few years ago⁠—I would say this is probably end of 2018, 2019⁠—I started fasting. And I actually lost quite a bit of weight. I lost 25 pounds and felt great. So I wouldn't eat my first meal until maybe noon or 1:00. It was very freeing in a lot of ways at that time because I wasn't being driven by food. I wasn't always thinking about food. I just started eating less, and then I started losing weight and just feeling better overall, and my numbers dropped. My sugars dropped. My blood pressure dropped. Slowly, over time, that has been changing and creeping up, and I've put on some of the weight, and now the prediabetes, the sugar levels. The blood pressure is a little bit higher.

Jessica:            What does your doctor think about the fasting?

Grace:             She thought it was great because I lost weight. And that improved my numbers at that time. I haven't gained all of that weight back. I'd say I've gained, since that, my lowest weight⁠—I've probably gained about ten pounds since then.

Jessica:            Okay. From what I'm seeing⁠—and please tell me if I'm wrong⁠—your weight wasn't a health problem. You had high numbers, but you could be the same weight you were and have different numbers, depending on the kinds of foods you were eating or when in the day you were eating those foods. Am I correct about that?

Grace:             I think you are. I think that Western medicine correlates weight with the numbers, so that's her orientation.

Jessica:            I see. I see. Okay. I'm going to acknowledge that the weight issue is one that every human, especially female humans, have a lot of pressure around. And it's easier to feel better about yourself when you're thinner because of the world. And I also want to acknowledge that you're saying that your physical health when you did your blood work was better when you were doing the fasting. But I do want to really pull apart the societally driven drive for thinness from your health because they are easy to correlate, but there is a problem. It's a problem. You know what I'm saying, right?

Grace:             Yes, I do.

Jessica:            That said, I am not a doctor. And although I can see medical stuff and talk to you about it, obviously I'm not going to give you medical advice. I shouldn't give you medical advice because I don't fucking know shit about medical stuff. That said, I know that there are lots and lots of camps around fasting. And many people who are in the medical field will tell you intermittent fasting, fasting like you were doing, is incredibly healthy; it's ideal. And other people will say it's incredibly unhealthy; don't do it.

                        I don't know what the truth is, but what I'm going to task you with is really doing more research with trusted sources. So finding trusted sources is its own fucking job, but make it your job because I don't know that that kind of fasting is sustainable for you.

Grace:             My acupuncturists have recommended it to lower my blood pressure numbers. And I was just like, "Sure, I will try it. What the heck?" I wasn't even like, "Okay. You're going to start fasting. This is how it's going to look." I just kind of really casually went into it and found, like, "Oh. Okay. I'm not so food-oriented anymore." And then I suddenly started losing weight. All of a sudden, my pants weren't fitting. I'm like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "Oh. I'm losing weight." It wasn't so purposeful⁠—

Jessica:            Interesting.

Grace:             ⁠—which is so interesting, right? But then, once all that started happening, then I went to the doctor. My numbers were dropped. And she was like, "Great. You've lost 25 pounds. That's good." So I thought, "Okay. I'll sustain this," which I did. But it's funny that⁠—

Jessica:            For how long?

Grace:             Years.

Jessica:            Years?

Grace:             I'd say maybe three years dedicatedly, but the past year⁠—I used to feel great when I wouldn't eat until 1:00 p.m. But I have been finding that I'm not feeling so great. So I have kind of started not really⁠—I've gone off of that, just organically and here and there. It's not like I used to be, wake up in the morning and have a meal. I will just wake up in the morning, have my lemon water, then have my coffee, and then eat when I feel like it no matter what time it is.

Jessica:            Good. I think that's really important that you're listening to your body. But there's this larger theme here because we're back to Saturn Return. Pre-second Saturn Return, you can do all manner of shit with your body and get away with it. Maybe getting away with it is you feel terrible for three months, but then it bounces back. Post-second Saturn Return and during the second Saturn Return, that doesn't work the same way.

                        So one of the things that you're dealing with is age and time, consequence. And so your body is telling you, "Okay. This fasting until the afternoon, late in the afternoon, is not a yes anymore," which doesn't mean it's inherently a no, but it's definitely not a yes. Okay. Great information. Your doctor is telling you that you need to watch your sugar levels. So one thing I want to just kind of stay grounded here and say you need education, and education about how to have a healthy diet for a prediabetic body. And again, I am sure that some resources are going to be like, "Yeah, fast," and others are going to be like, "Fasting is terrible for your blood sugar."

                        I don't know what the answer is. Your job is to find resources you trust and that actually work for your system because the foundations we lay during the Saturn Return⁠—any of the Saturn Returns⁠—it's that foundation that we build upon for the next 28 and a half years. So we're talking about to a time in your life where, yeah, you really want to be laying the foundation for having a healthy relationship to these two systems of your body that, as we know, get really hard to manage when we get older.

                        You don't have to have the perfect answers. But being an active participant in finding your best answers is really important during the second Saturn Return. And I want to add something to that, which is you're also going through a Neptune opposition to Mars. And this is another once-in-a-lifetime transit. It's over in March of 2024. It's two years total, so it will have been two years by March of '24.

                        This transit can be really rough on the health as well. And it can basically put you in a position, because in your birth chart you have Mars in the fifth, where you have hormonal stuff going on that's just kind of hard to put your finger on. The energy⁠—your energy levels can kind of be hard to put your finger on. A lot of times, people going through this transit have weird health issues come up. So there's all of this that I want to acknowledge is happening overlapping with your Saturn Return in Pisces.

                        To me, what this says is that that part of you that's like, "I'm kind of ignoring the health stuff," that's your Neptune opposition to Mars. And I want to say don't do it. None of this is going to get better on its own. I could have said that just because you're in your Saturn Return. The shit that comes up in our Saturn Return does not get better on its own. That's a promise, unfortunately, because Saturn requires that we adult. Saturn requires that we take responsibility and we do what needs to be done.

                        The second Saturn Return is when we cannot only focus on our conscious objectives and goals for the next 30 years; we must also honor the needs of the body, which I think is directly connected to our mental health. Our willingness and ability to acknowledge that you're older and your body is⁠—like you said, it's like the health stuff you're having, you're able to clearly see it's genetic, right?

Grace:             Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And whether we look at it from the perspective of genes or we look at it from astrology, you know the same answer, right? It's like, "Shit. I know how this goes in my family because I have family members that I can look at and be like, yeah, I see how this went for them." It doesn't get better on its own. It gets better because we make efforts. And that doesn't even mean it gets better, because again, something's going to get us eventually. That's the human condition.

                        But hold on. Let me just ground this for a second here because it's really interesting because I just⁠—coincidentally, completely unrelated, on my Patreon, we're having a conversation about how with New Age spirituality, which is⁠—astrology is included in that⁠—it is really risky to turn to astrology for medical health and physical health support because it can get into sticky, tricky things around morality. Like if you do a good job, then you won't be sick. And if you don't do a good job, then you're going to have diabetes, or that kind of thinking. Do you know what I'm saying?

Grace:             I do.

Jessica:            This moralistic, judgy stuff that can happen. And I want to just kind of acknowledge that, even though I know it can be a little bit out of left field, but it's because I'm aware that some of what I'm saying is like, "This is your job, and if you do a good job, things will be better. And if you don't, things will be harder for you." And this I don't mean in a moralistic way or even in a spiritual way, but more Saturn. Saturn is like, you walk up all the steps, and if you walk up all the steps, then you get to the top of the steps. Consequences.

                        And that's where this really lives. It's in the realm of consequences. Does this make sense, what I'm saying?

Grace:             Absolutely makes sense. It absolutely makes sense.

Jessica:            Okay. Now, do me a favor here. Say your full name out loud. We're going to beep it out.

Grace:             Okay. [redacted]

Jessica:            Okay. How's your partner's health?

Grace:             I mean, he's had some things happen.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm seeing that. So that's part of your Saturn Return, too. It's not just⁠—again, the second Saturn Return, it's not just about us. It's about our personal lives, our innermost personal lives. And for you, that's your partner. And his aging and his health is a part of your Saturn Return because it's coming to grips with the reality of time and consequence.

Grace:             I mean, you're going to make me cry, which is fine. But I am so triggered by the signs of health and aging that I see in him. Longtime trauma about needing the people I love to be okay and safe because that makes me safe. So yeah. He's had some⁠—nothing serious, but he had a recent bout of food poisoning in May that was one of the most violent things I've ever experienced with a person and wrecked him for like two weeks. And you think just like, "Oh, food poisoning. Okay. Yeah. You get it all out." No. This was, like, huge deal. And I even ran his chart with the transits. I'm like, "What hit him? What was that that he had to evacuate?" And he's got an orthopedic injury that he's dealing with right now, and it does trigger my anxiety.

Jessica:            That's perfectly fair. And I don't know if you found an answer, but at a certain point, the expectation we should have with our bodies is that they are more sensitive. And what's not normal for our 25, 35, 45, 55-year-old body⁠—what's not normal for that body is going to be different than what's not normal for our 65, 75, 85-year-old body. And I have never met anyone who is completely easeful in that adjustment, because it's a violent adjustment.

                        So this is a very real part of your Saturn Return. And it is part of what can be scary about being the younger person in a long-term relationship with somebody who you have⁠—you have almost a decade apart, because that decade is really⁠—it's not that big a deal from 40 to 50. Oh, but you're at a whole⁠—I mean, you're at the almost 60 to⁠—I'm guessing he's almost 70, then. Is that right?

Grace:             Yeah. He's 67.

Jessica:            67. I mean, it's a really big difference.

Grace:             Part of it, Jessica, is that he seems like a 12-year-old.

Jessica:            Okay. So this is the thing that is fascinating to me about men. The mental and emotional parts are not the same as the physical part. And so, if he seems like a 12-year-old to you, I'm guessing that's not physically.

Grace:             No.

Jessica:            No. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that, a lot of times, cis men have the kind of⁠—I don't know that it's a privilege completely, but okay. They have the ability to miss time because they don't have cycles in the same way. And the world isn't constantly clocking how old they look and their value based on how old they are. And my experience with the work I do is that I can't tell you how many times men in their 70s have come into my office and been like, "I don't know. I think I might be getting old," whereas I have 25-year-old women being like, "Oh, I'm running out of time."

                        And I think that this is a tricky thing because it mirrors something that is in your nature, which is, "If I don't look at it, it will go away." And he clearly has that around his own physical health, his own aging process. And it's going to be important for you to deal with reality⁠—not to sound like your Capricorn dad, but here we go. You've got Saturn in the tenth house, and it is about really assessing reality.

                        And that might mean you taking pains to cultivate a different relationship to how you think about and manage your physical healthcare and how you engage with your partner around that same topic because, yeah, I mean, you can get food poisoning at any age and have it be really gross and terrible and extreme or have it not be that big a deal. Both of these things can happen, but it just so happens that that's what's happening with him, that this is, in some part, about aging.

                        And your stellium in Virgo is not going to be chill about that, about your physical ailment stuff or about your partner's. And being able to cope with that is important, which is why I refer to the Saturn Return as such a mental health struggle, is because we are confronted with reality whether or not we have the tools and the willingness to cope with that. And that's just kind of what it is.

                        And the thing that is especially hard about the Saturn Return⁠—the second Saturn Return, rather⁠—is now you're a fucking adult. You have had almost 60 years of coping mechanisms built up. So to all of a sudden be like, "Okay, now I'm going to start dealing with this in a radically different way, even though all my survival mechanisms tell me not to," is really hard.

                        And unfortunately, we have found the part of your Saturn Return that is a challenge for you because you wrote the question being like, "My second Saturn Return is glorious. What the hell is going on?" And it is just showing you, okay, all of these things that you've done with work stuff⁠—checking boxes left and right. Who knew? With the physical health stuff, okay, that's your problem. That's where Saturn needs you to identify the boxes so that you can then check them because Saturn in Pisces is like, "There is no box. There is no box." [indiscernible 00:53:20] shit. There's the box. There's the box.

                        And if you have any concerns about your physician, you can always get a different physician. If your physician is more concerned about you being skinny than about you having good heart health⁠—I mean, I'm not hearing that from you, but if throughout your process, you find that, being the director of your own wellness is part of what Saturn wants us to do. Feel free to fire her and find someone else. Don't forget that doctors are there to work for you. And I don't mean that in a weird classist way, but I just mean don't let your physician bully you, intentionally or unintentionally, when what you really need is support.

Grace:             I actually love our doctor, but I consider her to be one piece of my team⁠—

Jessica:            Good. Great.

Grace:             ⁠—of healthcare support.

Jessica:            Yes.

Grace:             I need to fill in some other⁠—I have an acupuncturist. I need to fill in some other team members to⁠—because I know she's just got one perspective. You know?

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. And I think acupuncture is great for you. I bet Chinese herbs would be really great for you as well.

Grace:             Okay.

Jessica:            And you might need to find somebody who's a great nutritionist to help you to explore different ways of dealing with your blood sugar and your hypertension. And the cool thing is you can make the decision to work with somebody and try a program. You've had your blood drawn recently. And then set the intention, six months later, you're going to ask your doctor to draw your blood again so that you can see if it's helping or hurting. I just made up the number six months, but you get what⁠—

Grace:             I do.

Jessica:            You don't want to go too long is the point, especially because you're in your Saturn Return. So this is the time to be like, "I'm going to go to the dentist. I'm going to floss every single one of my damn teeth." This is the time to cross the t's and dot the i's with the physical health and also to be talking about health stuff with your partner so that you have a more realistic assessment of what's actually happening for both of you mentally as well as physically for all this stuff, right?

Grace:             Okay.

Jessica:            Because we need plans as we age, which brings me to the last⁠—and I hope it doesn't sound morbid⁠—thing, which is if you⁠—are you guys married?

Grace:             Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. If the two of you have a living will or not⁠—you know what a living will is?

Grace:             We do. We do.

Jessica:            Okay. Great.

Grace:             I just put all of that into place three months ago.

Jessica:            That's what I want to hear. Very Saturn Returny of you. So, for a person who's like, "I don't think I'm going through my Saturn Return, even though I know I'm going through my Saturn Return," you're going through your damn Saturn Return in a very Saturn Returny way. It's just not torture, except for it sounds like it gets really kind of sad and emo and challenging around physical health stuff. But that's, again, right on time, and I think it's within your capacity to really deal with.

Grace:             With all the tenth-house stuff, I would not have been looking in that direction at all.

Jessica:            Interesting. A good thing to keep in mind is that Saturn in any house, when it returns for the second time, is about our physical health, 100 percent. From a medical astrology perspective, each house indicates different parts of our physiology as well as a zodiac sign, as well as each planet. So, when we look at Saturn in your tenth house, I would automatically be concerned for your cardiovascular health. And hypertension⁠—it is cardiovascular, eh?

Grace:             Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And is there a history of heart disease in your dad's side of the family, then?

Grace:             Him, for sure. I mean, he had a heart attack, one of, I think, two or three—his first one in, like, his 50s.

Jessica:            Yep. There it is. There it is. It shows up in your chart because you have a stellium in the tenth, and that'll do it. Saturn is in the stellium in the tenth, not just any stellium. So Saturn represents where we live hard. Saturn is where we really just⁠—you know? Life isn't easy in that place. So nobody goes through the second Saturn Return and has nothing come up around physical health, because you're almost 60.

                        So this is where it's like I don't want anyone to panic. I don't want you to panic when you hear me say that. It's just like this is where we want to pair what we understand of astrology with the common sense component. And I think⁠—I don't know if you've done much reading about the second Saturn Return online, but the thing to keep in mind is that most online writers are in their 20s and 30s. Right?

Grace:             Yep.

Jessica:            And so they have theories about the second Saturn Return, but they may or may not have even gone through their first. Right?

Grace:             Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And it doesn't mean that they can't be competent. I mean, I haven't gone through my second Saturn Return, and I'm talking to you about it. That is an important thing to understand is that as you're experiencing, it's not what you expect, is it?

Grace:             Mm-mm.

Jessica:            It's like a whole other fucking thing. And the second Saturn Return comes after the Chiron Return. It comes after the Pluto square and the Uranus opposition and the Neptune square⁠—all the midlife transits. So you've already changed so much in the last decade, like so much, that when that second Saturn Return comes, it lands really different than you'd expect earlier.

Grace:             Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. So I guess my kind of final question, like in a wrap-up moment, is did I touch on all the things you were hoping I would, or do you have any final question for me?

Grace:             You did touch on everything. Yes.

Jessica:            Oh my God. I love to hear that. Yeah. Okay. That's so wonderful.

Grace:             Can I ask you something that isn't apparently tied in with my Saturn Return?

Jessica:            Hit me with it.

Grace:             My mother died in December.

Jessica:            I'm so sorry.

Grace:             Thank you. I didn't speak with her for, I'd say, two years leading up to her death. I had a real epiphany moment about trauma. I had to disengage from an incredibly embedded codependent relationship with her to the point where I had to cut her off entirely for a period of time, and was in very intense therapy dealing with all of that. And the timing worked out beautifully where I was able to show up and be with her for half a day before she died and be, and not be triggered, and come from a place of compassion and gratitude, and just be with her.

And it was so important to her, and it was important to me that I was able to⁠—I literally spent three years to get to this half day. But I was so grateful to be able to do that before she died. So I was just curious if you might have any⁠—and I am at peace. I am at peace with what I had to do. I've had little inklings⁠—and I'm not sure if this is just past trauma⁠—coming in of, did I abandon my mother? Did I abandon her?

And it's just⁠—you know, I'll book another⁠—I see my therapist maybe once a quarter now, and I'll get on her calendar if I need to to process this. But I guess I'm just curious if you're able to see anything around that situation.

Jessica:            Sure. Sure. So, first of all, that is your Saturn Return. So the second Saturn Return will often coincide with⁠—and the first and the second, actually, will often coincide with major changes with your parent or parents. Within the second Saturn Return, because of time and human life expectancy, it will often be either a major decline in health or the passing of a parent. So, again, you're really pulling all the things that are your Saturn Return.

                        And I'll say two things. The first thing is what you're telling me is that you showed up at the end, and that's not an abandonment. But just my common sense, my brain, is just like, even if you couldn't have been there at the end, abandonment is really⁠—it is a very specific energy. It's not taking your physical and your emotional presence away. It's dropping away. It's being like, "I don't care." It's a whole thing. And that's not what you did.

                        But the other thing is, when I look at it energetically, I just see peace between the two of you. I don't know that you would have peace with her if you hadn't pulled away from her. I don't know that you would have really had peace. I think you would have, after she passed, had the experience that a lot of people have after their parents pass, which is anger. You never got to process things with her. You never got to deal with things. You never got to tell her. You told her. I mean, one way or another, you told her. And I don't see that there's anything lingering, and I don't see anything lingering from her.

                        And if I'm being honest, there's a part of me that's like, "Oh, I should tell you more. I should dig into this." But why scratch at peace? Why push on peace? This does actually look like you did what you needed to do, and I do think she understands that now. I don't know that she understood it when you were taking space when she was alive, but she certainly understands that now, from what I'm seeing. Everything does look peaceful. Sad, but peaceful.

Grace:             Okay.

Jessica:            So I don't know if that helps, but⁠—

Grace:             It does.

Jessica:            Okay.

Grace:             Yeah. And that is basically how I feel. And I think, again⁠—the abandonment thing, I think, is an old trigger, stuff from all that craziness.

Jessica:            I mean, that's why you were codependent. You were codependent because you were so scared of being abandoned and abandoning. So, of course, in those moments when⁠—honestly, it's when the sadness gets really⁠—like you can really feel the sadness. Your old survival mechanisms are like, "Did I abandon her? Then I caused this sadness," which⁠—it's a habit more than a tapping into a truth. But again, all of this is your Saturn Return. It's not exclusive to it, but my goodness, it is very much your Saturn Return.

Grace:             Wow.

Jessica:            And being able to have peace with the adult choices you made in regards to how you're going to navigate intimate relationships, personal relationships, your parents, and also your needs and boundaries⁠—that's your fucking Saturn Return. Saturn in Pisces is about boundaries. It's what we're talking about, right? With your partner, with your body, with your doctor, with⁠—all this stuff, it's all⁠—Saturn in Pisces is so much about learning, "Oh shit. I get to have boundaries. Oh shit. I already had boundaries? Oh shit. My boundaries were working for me?" This is what your Saturn Return is teaching you.

                        And I imagine if we looked back at your first Saturn Return, we would see all of the exact same themes playing out in meaningfully different ways.

Grace:             Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            That's how Saturn Returns work. When that third Saturn Return comes, should you make it there⁠—right, because not everybody lives that long⁠—it will be more about the body and more about the internal stuff, the foundations you have within yourself and in your personal life, than about any of this external stuff. Are you going to be thinking about contracting in your late 80s? No, probably not. Maybe, but probably not.

                        And so it's about recognizing that you are at this new place, and this new place takes new perspectives and new priorities, and not the abandonment of the old ones, but we have to change with time. This Saturn Return is that time.

Grace:             Yeah. Beautiful.

Jessica:            I'm really glad we got to do this.

Grace:             Thank you.

Jessica:            I'm really, really glad we got to do this. Yeah.

Grace:             Yeah. I really appreciate it. And I really hope this is helpful to your listeners.

Jessica:            Me, too. Me, too. I mean, I think so many people have odd fantasies about what that second Saturn Return is going to be. And I will say I get a lot of questions from a lot of people who are really struggling in their second Saturn Return. And also, it is absolutely possible⁠—and it's not even rare⁠—to have a second Return like you're having, where your ass is being handed to you in some ways, but also, you're getting so much validation on the ways in which you have had a life well lived.

                        And you want to be able to hold both of these things because Saturn, as much as it's a fucking boner killer, it is not a boner killer for no reason. It's like, "Boners are a distraction. You don't need to focus on boners all day long. Focus on other things." You know what I mean? It kills boners for a reason is the point I'm trying to make. So there's something very powerful about that.

                        I wish you very well with this. And I will say, between now and February of 2024, this whole period that your Saturn Return is occurring, is when you really want to be focusing on laying these foundations with your health, coping with it and all the mental health stuff that comes up when you actually do cope with it and all the distractions⁠—embrace that. Really lean into that. Work with that. And what you'll be doing, even if you fail spectacularly as you try, it is⁠—the foundation of truly trying is what you need now. You don't need success. You need to put yourself on the path.

                        So that's Saturn Return wisdom for you as we end.

Grace:             Yeah. Love it.