Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Hey there, Ghosties. In this episode, I'll be doing a live reading with one of my beloved listeners. Every Wednesday, listen in on an intimate conversation and get inspired as we explore perspectives on life, love, and the human condition. Along the way, we'll uncover valuable insights and practical lessons that you can apply to your own life. And don't forget to hit Subscribe or, at the very least, mark your calendars because every Sunday I'll be back with your weekly horoscope. And that you don't want to miss. Let's get started.

Jessica:      Welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about today?

Guest:              I'm just going to go ahead and read my question. "So, essentially, grief has been kicking my ass for as long as I can remember. And I feel extremely bullied by this, but I also have happened to have some of my most impactful revelations in that sweet spot of deep sadness and wonderment. And that place really deeply informs my work as a therapist and modeling compassionate curiosity. However, as a chronically depressed person, I am really exhausted from using this [indiscernible 00:01:26] stone from my deepest wounds. And my question is, how do I tap into my power without letting the sadness consume me?"

Jessica:            That's such a big question, and I really like it. Let me just get a couple points of confirmation so I make sure I understand the question. So you're a therapist, right?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            And does this issue come up in your work primarily, or in life primarily, and that encompasses work?

Guest:              The latter. The latter, definitely.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure. And then depression. You're a therapist, so I'm guessing you used the word "depression" because you have a diagnosis of depression and you identify with that diagnosis.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And I'm assuming you also, then, have your own psychological reference point of treatment and all of that.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yay. Does it work?

Guest:              Yes and no. Yes in that I⁠—with the help of other therapists, I have had deeper understandings. And I haven't been in therapy for like a year, so I'm on the lookout. So it's like a lot of this work I'm doing on my own and reflecting on my own. I don't know. I have this feeling that I hold a lot of grief that is also not my own, that is really old, old within my lineage but also old in the sense of collective grief in general, of just being a human in a meat suit on this godforsaken planet.

Jessica:            I mean, took the words directly out of my mouth. Yes. I hear you completely. So I'm going to have you say your full name out loud.

Guest:              Including my last name?

Jessica:            Give me everything you got, all the names, all the damn names⁠—government name, chosen name, everything you got, unless you don't want to say it. I'm not asking for dead names, but everything you got.

Guest:              My chosen name is [redacted].

Jessica:            So I'm definitely missing names.

Guest:              Yes. I have a middle name, [redacted].

Jessica:            That is it. And you were named for somebody?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Did your mom immigrate from somewhere else?

Guest:              She's first generation born in the States.

Jessica:            Okay. So her parents⁠—

Guest:              My grandmother⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            I see.

Guest:              My grandmother immigrated.

Jessica:            Okay. Layers, layers, layers. So, straight out the gate, there's so much I can say astrologically. We could just start with the astrology, but I'm not going to do that with you because you're a therapist, so you already have an analytic framework. And the thing that I think a lot of people don't fully realize about astrology is it is an analytic framework. It is not an emotional framework. It can be used as a spiritual framework but in an analytic way. So I don't want to start there. I promise I'll get there.

                        I do want to start with what I see when I look at you energetically is there's this way that you pull in so much information. It's almost like you're scanning like they do in cartoons, scanning the whole thing, and you're scanning for danger and for things to go wrong. It's not just danger. It's like, "Where will I fail? Where will somebody else fail me?" It's that kind of scan.

Guest:              Yes. [indiscernible 00:04:22].

Jessica:            Okay. Good. Okay. Good.

Guest:              [indiscernible 00:04:24].

Jessica:            We're in the first four minutes, so excellent. In doing that, what your survival mechanism—because this is a survival mechanism habit. What it is is it's almost like you have your sweet little meat suit⁠—love it or hate it, whatever⁠—sweet little meat suit, and then you sit directly outside of your meat suit doing that scanning thing. And so you leave yourself to protect yourself, and straight out of the gate, we have a problem because when we leave ourselves and we abandon ourselves and we step outside of our own system, what we end up doing is making ourselves vulnerable.

                        And this first thing that I'm seeing for you is the way that you are vulnerable is that you're only scanning for what's wrong and what could go wrong, leaving yourself actually quite vulnerable to emotional and psychic attack or exhaustion. You're using this very smart-person strategy, but it kind of abandons the emotional body. Does that make sense?

Guest:              It makes so much sense, and it's hitting me in this way of a phrase that I use all the time in my work is we're so good at pointing out danger, but really never get the opportunity to point out what feels good. And that has been my experience.

Jessica:            Yep. I'm going to have you say all your names one more time.

Guest:              [redacted]

Jessica:            Thank you. At the core here, you are too good at protecting yourself from dangers real and imagined, past and present and future⁠—even though that's kind of impossible, but yeah. You're so good at it, and these are such valuable skills that you have that it's hard to convince yourself or motivate yourself to make a change because these skills work. And you have a lot of analytic data and theoretical data that backs up why you should, why you can, why you should, why you can.

                        And I want to say to you what you may have heard me say in the past, but I'll say it a million times before I die, for sure, is that when dealing with our survival mechanisms we cannot strong-arm them. We cannot convince them. The only thing we can do is work with them because a survival mechanism is meant to help you survive. And if you say or do anything, no matter how brilliant, to try to tell your survival mechanism, "Hey, this is not working. We'll try something else," yeah, the survival mechanism is like, "You're trying to kill me. I get it. You're trying to come for me, and now I fight you with all my skills."

                        The visual I keep on getting is of⁠—I'm getting a lot of cartoons. Are you a cartoon fan or something, or am I just catching [crosstalk]?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. You're a cartoon fan. Okay, because I'm getting this all in cartoons. It's like this cartoon of a person⁠—it's you⁠—in a bed, and it's tucked in so tight. You're tucked in as tightly⁠—only a cartoon could be this tucked in, and it's like twilight darkness, not complete darkness. You have tucked yourself in so tightly as a way to protect yourself, and you can't move your legs a lot. You're in a bed. Getting up is like⁠—that would fuck the whole strategy.

                        When I look at you energetically, so much of you is so contained. I mean, so much of you is so⁠ like⁠—you've put yourself in a safe place, and it's a contained place. But it's so limited. So now let's go to your chart. You were born August 13th, 1993, 1:33 a.m., in New York, New York.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Let's start not at the beginning, but at the fucking top of your chart. So, whenever I say the top of a person's chart, what I mean is the Midheaven is the highest point in the chart. And you happen to have Saturn hugging your Midheaven for dear life. Saturn is just like, "Yes, Midheaven. This is where we're going." So, straight out the gate, you've got this very strong Saturn. It sits opposite to your Sun and Chiron. And Saturn, the Sun, and Chiron all form a T-square to Pluto. Don't worry. I'm going to break this down in English.

What this means is a lot of things. One is you have a depressive nature⁠—Saturn. Saturn is a bitch. I mean, what are you going to do? Saturn is just like, "Everything's hard. Everything is labor. And everything is fate." It gives you, generally speaking, when Saturn is in an aspect pattern like this, early developmental circumstances that force you to grow up real quick and deal with adults who aren't safe, or if they're safe, they're not safe for you. And it gives you the need to kind of be self-parenting. You had to protect yourself. You had to manage yourself. Does this make sense?

Guest:        Painfully.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm sorry. Because of Pluto⁠—and I should say that Pluto is sitting in your sixth house. Because of Pluto, there is the grief part. There is the having to deal with losses and abandonments and betrayals. The way that it was in your absolute best interest to take care of yourself was to be a rigid paternal figure towards yourself, and maybe to other people. We'll get there. I don't know, but definitely to yourself. You became the best kind of dad you could be to you. And were you raised with both your parents?

Guest:              They were divorced by the time I came onto this earth, but I more so lived with my mom.

Jessica:            There's a lot to say about your childhood, and there's⁠—

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            I mean, like a lot. And a lot to say about both your parents and both your parents' lineages. But this coping mechanism of tucking yourself into the most tightly made bed in town⁠—that comes out of your matrilineage.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Here's the fucking thing, though: fucking Pluto. You thought you had a problem with Saturn? Sure. But Pluto⁠—I mean, Pluto in the sixth house⁠—I'm not going to say it's a challenging position because it implies that there's a not-challenging position for Pluto to be in. I mean, Pluto is a fucking challenging planet, right? But what it does is it makes your survival mechanisms have to operate on a material basis. It's in the day-to-day. So you don't just have to take care of your survival when shit goes sideways; you have to take care of it every moment. And if you don't, everything will fall apart.

                        So it creates this hypervigilance. When you say you have a depression diagnosis, I'm like, "Saturn opposite Sun? Sure. Okay." But then we add Pluto to the mix, and there comes a hypervigilance associated with it that can be associated with PTSD or CPTSD. And obviously, I'm not going to be a therapist. I'm not a fucking therapist. This is not my skill set. But it becomes this kind of chronic pattern of, "I need to protect myself. I need to protect myself. I need to protect myself." It gives you real-life needs to protect yourself.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. I personally wouldn't expect this to lead to magical thinking or obsessive-compulsive disorder. But you would have little sweet threads of those things, not like the diagnosis of those things, but you could get into that shit because when everything feels so important and you have the capacity, as you do, to track fucking everything all the time, of course you're going to get a little superstitious sometimes or triple/quadruple-check things sometimes in a way that is more a result of hypervigilance then self-care.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And do you drink? Do you do drugs? Do you party?

Guest:              Yes, but not on a regular basis.

Jessica:            Great. Good. There is addiction in your family, eh?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And it shows up in your chart. It shows up. The pain of addiction shows up in your chart, of being raised around addicts, but also, the physiological predisposition and the psychological predisposition towards addiction⁠. Saturn⁠—Saturn wants you to be in fucking control all the time, and so it's a lot less inclined to let you become an addict. But because you have these deep, kind of genetic⁠—like epigenetic⁠—predispositions, it is something for you to be really careful around.

                        For you, learning how to cope with your reality in a way that is a really good parent way, where you provide for yourself and you protect yourself without overly limiting yourself or overly indulging yourself with a million-dollar packet here⁠—that's the move. And so, for you, substance use can kind of take you away from that, because if it works for you, it can make you feel⁠—and I'm not talking about prescription drugs, but I'm talking about partying. If it works for you, it can make you feel like, "Oh, I found a way out," and that's dangerous for you. And if it doesn't work for you, then there's shame: "Why did I do that?" Pluto. Fucking Pluto.

                        Hot take on that. Now I want to give you another hot take because you have a second T-square. You've got two T-squares. And this one⁠—if you look at the birth chart that you and I are looking at, it's not drawn. And I want to say I have a fancy, professional astrologer's program⁠—it's not like an online free tool or whatever, not that those are bad. Those are not bad. But I have a fancy program, and it didn't draw in your second T-square. So just as a hot tip, this is where we can't always trust the dang machines. We've got to be able to read the shit ourselves.

                        You have in your birth chart Venus opposite your Uranus/Neptune conjunction, and they all three form a square to Jupiter in your fifth house. So that makes you⁠—it gives you a T-square to Jupiter. Most people seem to be under the misconception that Jupiter means optimism, happiness, luck. It can. That's parts of it.

But when we have a lot of pressure on Jupiter, as you do, I find it tends to lead towards depression. It doesn't track exactly in psychology in the same way because this form of depression is not a Saturnian, like, Eeyore-style depression where it's like, "Oh-de-do, everything's terrible." It's, instead, this, "Everything is possible. I know I could do so much more. I know I could be so much more. I know I could heal so much quicker. I know that no matter how far I get, there's so much further to go. And so nothing has meaning because what's the damn point?"

Guest:              It sounds literally like what my inner monologue sounds like a lot of the time.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm sorry. You expect brilliance, perfection, perfect healing. You want your problems to fit into your narratives⁠—like, all the things. Jupiter is also kind of a bitch. I mean, honestly, everybody's kind of a bitch. I'm a bitch. I mean, whatever. But Jupiter is kind of a bitch because Jupiter is all about this impulse where we're capable of so much more. And that's beautiful when it's balanced. But because it's the focal planet to a T-square, not so much with the balance.

But also, because Venus square Jupiter is there, well, people like you. People like you. That doesn't make you like you, but for a few minutes, it gives you this glow of, like, "Everything's okay. I'm okay. Everything's okay." And then, when you're no longer in the presence of other people's validations⁠—the fucking problem with a Venus/Jupiter square is it can make you return to yourself. So, if people liking you⁠—a.k.a. approval and attention⁠—doesn't heal a wound, then what happens is there's a greater contrast now between how you feel under the glow of approval versus how you feel about yourself. This can be a real pain in the butt.

Guest:        Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm so sorry, but yes. And then, on top of it, Uranus/Neptune conjunction in Capricorn opposite your Venus square your Jupiter⁠—so Queer. So Queer, like perpetually Queer, like Queer in your queerness, Queer, Queer, Queer, Queer, Queer. And it doesn't have to always be that way, but in your⁠—

Guest:              I love it.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. It also gives you hormonal stuff. So there's a lot of sensitivity to your own hormonal cycles, which will, I would imagine, have a meaningful impact on your mental health. And so, whatever you do around your self-care journey, I would definitely recommend bringing in healthcare professionals who are equipped to really look at hormonal patterns and how the metabolic system and the hormonal systems in your body are reflected in your mental health and how you could treat the body as a way to better support the mental health. Have you done anything like this so far in your life?

Guest:              Not really, in terms of hormonally. Yeah. At most, I have an IED, and that⁠—

Jessica:            Does it work?

Guest:              It works in that it no longer makes me menstruate, which was what I wanted in terms of just gender affirmation and feeling more neutral in that sense in my body. But I can't say whether or not it has made my mental health worse because for as long as I have been a sentient human, I have felt so low and melancholy.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. I'm going to float an idea by you, and you only do it if it feels good. I would be interested if you would maybe clock once a day, scale from 1 to 10, maybe at 3:00⁠—I don't know. Pick a time, and try to, scale from 1 to 10, pop a number. And see after the course of three to six months, is there a cycle that you can track? Because that would be so valuable for you, to be like, "Oh shit. This is my natural moment of the month where I feel stretched thin. My cortisol levels are just up. That is what's happening," because then there are so many things you can do to support your system.

And you might do this and be like, "There is no discernible pattern." Great. Wasted experiment. But basically, what I'm pointing you towards, coming back to that thing I said earlier of⁠—I see that you sit right next to your body. This is a way of having that part of you that's sitting right next to your body turn towards your body and be interested in your body and not try to change it, not try to fix it, not try to condemn it, but be interested in what's happening and whether or not it's showing up. So I would do that.

I would say that your system is really well suited to herbal treatments, from my perspective. I don't know if you fuck with Chinese medicine or Western medicine, but there's a million different kinds of herbal treatments. But you have a very sensitive body.

Guest:        Yes.

Jessica:            Very, very sensitive. And so, if you find somebody who's an expert who can really help you, I don't think it would magically change your experience of grief or depression, but I think it would support your system so that you had more space to use your internal resources, basically.

Guest:              Yeah. That feels very it for me, and thank you.

Jessica:            Oh, I'm so glad. I actually want to ask you, does your mom have a diagnosed thyroid condition?

Guest:              No, but my father does. He has⁠—

Jessica:            Your father does?

Guest:              ⁠—[crosstalk] disease. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. And have you had your thyroid checked?

Guest:              Yes. And so far, throughout my life when I had it checked, they're like, "It's all good. You're good."

Jessica:            The thing I want to say about this is two things. One is it shows up in your chart, the thyroid. So that doesn't mean anything. I mean, it could just mean, oh, well, I see it in your genes. But it could also mean that from a Western medicine standpoint, they want⁠—if your numbers aren't x, y, and z, then they're like, "Yeah, you don't have a thyroid condition," but it could be that you have not what Western medicine would delineate as a thyroid condition, but maybe Eastern medicine would be like, "Oh, we're going to treat your thyroid to support your thyroid before you have a condition." And the reason why you've had it checked, I'm assuming, is because, in part, you have some of the symptoms, eh?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              And even one of my close friends who has a thyroid condition was like, "That sounded like me before I got on my thyroid meds."

Jessica:            Correct. So this is, to me, where it's like you take your blood work from Western medicine⁠—thank you very much, Western medicine⁠—and you bring it to an expert with a ton of experience, because that's what you need. You've got Saturn at the top of the chart. You don't want to fuck with third-year people. That's just not what you want to bring your big triggers to, okay? And seek support for your thyroid. I think it will really help.

                        Again, we're not talking about fixing your problems magically. We're not looking for magic bullets here. But it's about freeing up your own internal resources so that you can better cope. Do you have a question there?

Guest:              No. No. I'm just⁠—it's resonating a lot. It feels comical for me because I literally say this at least four times a day to my [crosstalk]⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              ⁠—client of like, "It's not going to fix your problems, but it will support you in being able to make space for them."

Jessica:            Right.

Guest:              I say that all the fucking time, and I'm like, "Bitch, take your own advice."

Jessica:            I mean, it's not that simple. Is it that simple? And this is like⁠—okay. So let's come back to your Pluto. You've got your Pluto and your North Node in the sixth house. So the work you're doing is the work that you need to be doing on yourself. And that means surrounding yourself with other people's pain is the kindest thing you can do. It's the gentlest thing you can do because all you want to do is be in the damn pain because that's how you resonate.

                        You have a Chiron conjunction to your Sun opposite Saturn square to Pluto. Healer, heal thyself. It's not about healing yourself so that you are no longer injured in that Chironic wound sort of way. It's about finding different ways to orient and hold pain and to understand pain. And this brings me to kind of what feels like more of the center of your question around⁠—do you remember what you named your question? Because it really stuck with me, and now I've forgotten it.

Guest:              I am Eeyore.

Jessica:            Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, from one Eeyore to another, let's go." And I want to say this. Whether we're considering the effects of your Jupiter⁠—which is kind of the opposite of what a lot of people would expect but is very common for what your chart does⁠—or we're talking about the Saturn element, it is within your nature to be an Eeyore, to be like, "Yeah, sure, it's sunny now, but it's going to be dark and gray later. Yeah, it's a beautiful sunset, but it's pollution."

It is within your nature to be able to resonate with what is wrong. And to a certain extent, I want to say if you weren't comparing yourself to other people, would that be such a bad thing?

Guest:              I feel like in the cultural system that I am operating under, that type of seeing the negative is not appreciated, is seen as the Debbie downer, quote unquote.

Jessica:            Totally.

Guest:              And for me, I have had no issue with seeing the what is wrong. And I'm usually the person that catches what is wrong or what is overlooked. And I've appreciated⁠—that's one of the few things I've appreciated about myself, is that being able to catch that and sit with it. Yeah. I think when it comes to other people, I get scared that it won't be seen as a gift.

Jessica:            Absolutely. Let's talk about the layers in that. The first is we all have our own nature. Accepting our nature is really hard, but it is not a thing to come to total acceptance of the self, especially in ways in which life is hard or you are different from the people around you, for most people, I would say, especially with people with trauma, before the age of 35. Let's just start with that, before Saturn squares itself post-first Saturn Return, okay? So you're not behind schedule. I want to just start with that.

                        The other thing is you have fucking Venus in the first house. You just want to be easygoing. You want people to like you, and you want to like people, and you want everything to be easy and chill. And you're really good at acting that way for a limited period of time.

Guest:              That's correct. And then I need to go cocoon by myself.

Jessica:            Yes. Exactly. And you have Moon conjunct your damn Ascendant from the twelfth house. And so your emotions play not just on your face⁠—on your whole body. You don't hide your feelings. You don't have that skill set. I'm so sorry.

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            No, you don't.

Guest:              Nope. I know this deeply.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm sure you do. And so, on its own, I don't think that's bad or good. But because your Venus is in the first house saying, "Just like me. I'm super easygoing. You want ice cream? I'll eat ice cream. Doesn't matter if I'm lactose intolerant. Let's go." There is this part of you that just wants to be chill. And yet, if somebody says something that just⁠—you're like, "Oh, that's off," they'll know you feel that way. And that makes you uncomfortable.

                        Additionally, like you said, people don't want to talk about the climate crisis all day, every day. I mean, I do, but most people don't. And there is an element of first needing to identify, like, "Okay. This is what I feel. These are my interests. This is my nature. Can I work towards accepting myself?"⁠—not, "Can I accept myself?" because that's too big. I mean, nobody accepts themselves 100 percent. But, "Can I work towards accepting myself?"

And then the other part is recognizing who is a well-suited person to actually get to know who you are, because your Venus in the first house is like, "Well, everyone should be my friend, and I should be everyone's friend." But the truth is you only need like three friends that are actually your friends that actually get you, that get to know the depth of your Eeyore and to embrace that. And there's a reason why that's like a cultural thing, where I knew what you were talking about even though we're generations apart.

It's because it's a character within an ecosystem wherein people have mental health stuff and people have⁠—they work together, and they work against each other, but everyone has value in that ecosystem. And there are those of us who are canaries in coal mines. And that just means you're a little bit living in a coal mine. But there is a value to it.

And if you can kind of be willing to explore not just the value it has for others, but the inherent value you have based on your nature, what you'll experience is two things: of course, more self-acceptance⁠—yay⁠—but also grief. Grief, right? So we're back to grief. Grief/depression, depression/grief. Saturn doesn't reach for joy. Saturn reaches for meaning. In its best-case scenario, Saturn reaches for maturity and wisdom, which is why you can be as young as you are and a therapist, and I'm guessing a pretty fucking good therapist.

Guest:        I hope so.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing you're a really good therapist. I mean, your chart is written for working with people who have trauma.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You're good for it. And while, yes, it exhausts you, and yes, it may burn you out on days, yeah, you could do this shit for the rest of your life. It allows you to not pretend to be something you're not. It allows you to show up with all of your natural skills and have meaning. And through the practice of meaning, there is joy there. And I wonder if you experience the joy through that practice.

Guest:              I do, and it feels like an all-over body glow. When I witness somebody realizing something about themselves or really seeing themselves, it feels so beautiful. It feels beautiful to witness.

Jessica:            Yeah. People say if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. I don't know. There's an element of truth to it; it's total bullshit. It's both, right? It's both. But for you, there is this place where you do experience joy. And when you experience joy, that doesn't mean your depressiveness or your grief disappears magically. It simply means that those things⁠ your system is able to hold in balance. It's like, "It's there. It's not all of me. It has utility. But I don't have to fixate on it. I don't have to fix it. It doesn't have to drag me down." It exists in this beautiful ecosystem that is your internal world.

Guest:              Yes, very much so.

Jessica:            And being able to identify that and bring your attention back to that over the course of your whole life in different ways based on where you're at developmentally⁠—that is really going to help you because you have a narrative that is partially yours and partially comes from the world, which is, "Oh, you're heavy. Oh, depression is bad. Oh, I can't get out of this."

And whether or not those things are true, you actually have lived experience and evidence that you have the capacity of experiencing joy in your way, not in somebody else's way, in your way. And it actually⁠—it happens to kind of coincide with you doing what you feel called to do as a person, but also as a person working in the world. This will age well, and also, it won't magically make you feel light and carefree, because as I look at your birth chart, light and carefree? You know what I mean?

Guest:              It never [indiscernible 00:30:12].

Jessica:            It's not really there. It's not exactly there. There's parts⁠—I mean, you're like a double Gemini. Your Rising, your Moon are Gemini. So is that light and carefree? I mean, if your Moon wasn't in the twelfth house, maybe. But your Moon's in the damn twelfth house. So you're like the catfish at the bottom of the water pulling in all the toxins. That Moon in the twelfth house is really good at picking up stuff. But it's in Gemini, so you can make it funny, and you can meme about it. That doesn't bring you joy, though. That's interesting to you. That's engaging to you, but it's not pure joy. Pure joy is when you bring in all your parts.

And I will say that, for you, work is joy. And I know that there's a cultural movement to be like, "Work is not a good thing." And it's rooted in anti-capitalism, and I am a fan of anticapitalism. I embrace anticapitalism. And also, I'm a fucking triple Capricorn. I have found work that brings me nothing but joy. I love it. That doesn't mean there's no parts of it that I don't like, but as a person who really loves my work⁠—and I've been doing it for almost 30 full years⁠—I love work. I love being a workaholic. It is where a lot of my joy lives. And I'm sharing this with you because it looks like that's your wiring.

Guest:              I am very shocked.

Jessica:            Tell me more. Tell me everything.

Guest:              I maybe once or twice a week write in my journal, like, "I'm tired of working. I want to be 65 already. I want to be a retiree. I'm not made for this life." More so, what I really mean is that I want to unsubscribe to the way that our society forces us to do work. I hate this iteration of how I have to do my work. I know it's not for me.

Jessica:            How do you have to do your work?

Guest:              Within the medical industrial complex. I take up such issue with the way things are pathologized, with the structures that make up my profession, the oppressive history and nature of it. And so I know, while I can do this work, I know I can't do it in this iteration for long. And that's what tires me, is I fucking hate this shit. I hate how we have to do this. It feels so irrelevant.

Jessica:            So let me ask you some questions. The first one is, when you're sitting with clients, do you feel that way? Do you feel like, "I cannot be doing this anymore. This is fucking too much"? Is that where you feel it?

Guest:              No. It's in the notetaking and the administrative part of it and the price-setting part of it.

Jessica:            Okay. Do you work at a medical facility?

Guest:              No. I work in private practice.

Jessica:            Okay. You are in private practice, but you still have to do that because you have to take insurance, yada, yada; is that right?

Guest:              I can't take insurance because I don't own the private practice. I'm part of somebody else's.

Jessica:            I see. Here's what I'm going to say. And listen. If you identify with fucking wanting to be retired, I won't take that from you. But as your astrologer, I am going to push back and say when I'm referring to the work, I am referring to being a therapist, counseling people. And⁠—real talks⁠—that's only like half the work, or maybe more than half, but not much more than half, right?

Now, I'm going to just throw at you that⁠—I'm assuming you're in early years of your practice⁠—that what you have is data. "I do not like the paperwork. I do not like the roots of therapy." We're not going to change that. But it's a tool. A tool can be used in a lot of different ways, and it really changes based on who's using it. So I'm just going to leave that in the mix.

But there are many things that I am seeing⁠—and you tell me if I'm wrong⁠—that you could do, not this year, but that you could do within the next⁠—I don't know⁠—seven years to create more emphasis on the part you like, which is actually counseling clients, and less emphasis on the shit you don't like, which is, I'm guessing, paperwork, etc. Is that true? Can you do that, like within the next, let's say, seven years?

Guest:              I feel like I could do that, maybe not on my own, but in collaboration. And that's what interests me a bit more, is doing that in collaboration, because I could vision it a bit, and I could feel it a bit. But I know, just given where my body is at now, I'm like, I'd be interested in doing some collaboration for sustainability purposes.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's interesting that when I say you can do it, you say, "Yeah, but only in collaboration," whereas why would it not be in collaboration inherently if you could do it?

Guest:              You're right.

Jessica:            Okay. I mean, I'm not trying to sell you on fucking therapy, obviously. But I will say that there is a value to some of it and that you have the capacity, you have the nature, to build a practice, whether it's singular or community-based, where you are doing dramatically less of the shit you don't like so you can focus on the shit you do like, so you can do the part that's the calling and not focus so much on the part that just drags you.

                        I say this because I don't think you would enjoy being retired. You have Saturn at the top of your chart opposite your Sun, square your damn Pluto in the sixth house. It's interesting because finding meaning and purpose through work is kind of written into your chart. You have revealed that you feel this joy when you are doing the work that you are called to, not the work around the calling, but the work that you are called to.

                        So I don't know. I would invite you to explore this reframe because I wonder if the person who owns the practice that you're currently working in⁠—if that person is doing the same amount of labor around consulting clients that you are. I'm guessing they're not, because they own a practice that other people work in.

Guest:              It's a small one, so she does actually do a lot of the work. But I bet it's probably very different.

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Guest:           Side note: the reason that I also have to do a lot more work is because I very much undercharge my clients.

Jessica:         Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do.

Guest:           The reason why, like, the boy is impoverished.

Jessica:         Okay. So that brings us to the next piece. First, I just want to really, before I move away from this, say I invite you to reframe, and I invite you to make a plan. And when I say make a plan, make a couple different plans. Because you got that strong Jupiter, I would say⁠—have you ever storyboarded something?

Guest:           No, but I like this idea.

Jessica:         Okay. Good. Okay. So, if you're making a comic book or if you're making a cartoon or if you're making a film, you would storyboard it. You'd create all these boxes, right? So I would encourage you to storyboard⁠—and you can fucking google it⁠—three different versions of what a practice that emphasized what you do love and deemphasized the things you don't love could look like over the course of the next⁠—I'd say seven years because it's a Saturn cycle. You know what I mean? But you could do whatever you want, whatever timeline you want⁠—because Saturn is known for failure of imagination. It's true.

                      Saturn is like, "Well, this is how it's done, so this is how I'm going to do it." Depression puts us in that mindset as well. It's like, "This is how it's done. It's what I'm stuck in." The truth is you can take the blankets off, get out of bed, explore the rest of the house. Now we're in dream interpretation stuff, this visual of you in the bed. You know what I mean? In a house in your dreams. It's meant to symbolize your consciousness. And there is a way that I feel like you've made a really comfortable, safe place in one part of you.

                      And so, as we expand what's possible⁠—I'm not saying as a licensed therapist, you can be an astrologer like I am, where it's like⁠—whatever⁠—no rules, you know? But I do think that there is a way that there can be more, and that does bring us to money. It does bring us to money. You undercharge 100 percent of your clients?

Guest:           Yeah.

Jessica:         I respect you. I respect you. Okay. How many clients can you see per week in a healthy way?

Guest:           In a healthy way, 15.

Jessica:         Okay. That's a lot. And do you put time in between your clients?

Guest:           Hell yes.

Jessica:         Okay. Great.

Guest:           That is my hardcore boundary, is I need a break in between.

Jessica:         The way that therapists are trained is insane. That you're supposed to just go ten minutes in between people is fucking bananas.

Guest:           It's ableist. It's ridiculous.

Jessica:         Absolutely. Even more than that, it's not a supportive mental health approach to being a mental health practitioner.

Guest:           Right.

Jessica:         Where is the wisdom in it, right? So, that said, I'm going to be annoying, okay? Thanks. Okay. Good. Doing 100 percent bottom-of-a-sliding-scale services⁠—a fucking gorgeous move for an independently wealthy person. It's also a gorgeous move for somebody who knows that they're in it for a short period of time. I am confident in assuming you are not independently wealthy.

Guest:           No.

Jessica:         Okay.

Guest:           I am not, unfortunately.

Jessica:         Well, there's pros and cons of everything. But okay.

Guest:           Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:         Not independently wealthy. Okay. And so what I want to say is that your current strategy is getting in your way. You have Neptune opposite Venus. It can make you real idealistic. Your current business model will lead to burnout, which means you won't be able to serve anybody. And what I want to say is it's giving pre-Saturn Return. You know what I mean? It's giving pre-Saturn Return.

The reason why so many people in not-for-profit industry and all these other worlds where it's all about self-sacrifice, and even within activism, are pre-Saturn Return is because you can run yourself ragged and not really fully get that sustainability is what happens in your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, your 60s, your 70s, your 80s⁠—my God, it's so long.

So I am going to say it is wise for you to sit down with your most financially minded friend if you have one, to sit down and really look at, how much do you need to make? There's how much do you need to make to survive, and there's how much do you need to make to feel abundant? And then there's, once you're abundant, how much do you want? We're not going to the third question. The third question is for older you, for later you.        This is, what do you need? Because right now, you're making less than you need, correct?

Guest:              Yes. Well, this is the part that gets difficult. It's like the wage I make is under the poverty line for my area, halfway beneath the poverty line. I can pay my rent every month, and I can buy groceries and once in a while do something nice for myself. But I am living on what I can survive on. I am not living abundantly at all, and that also crushes me.

Jessica:            Yep. Technically, you're surviving because you have a rent situation that's empowering you to do so. But you're dramatically under the poverty line. Okay. We're going to talk about values for a minute. Do you value the work you do?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              And…

Jessica:            Uh-huh. "Yes, and…" All right. Okay.

Guest:              Yes. I highly value the work I do. And there's this thing of knowing that I am one of very few Black, Trans therapists out here. And so people come to me for a reason, and it's a very small pool. I can't in good conscience cut myself out of this pool and being inaccessible. But then there's also the dilemma of, "Okay, so that's why I have signs." But if everybody is on the lower end, and if, also, the maximum part of the scale is still not enough, what are you actually doing?

Jessica:            Yeah. That's correct. Let's unpack this a little. So a couple things. The first one is everything you said is real, and I'm not going to fucking argue it, and it's never not going to be real. The second thing is, by the time Saturn comes around and squares itself in your mid- to late 30s, if you want to still be a therapist and not have burned yourself completely, this is not a sustainable approach because you as an individual cannot fix the systemic problem for your patients and potential patients. And if you do take on the burden of fixing it for everyone at the expense of your own lived experience, then the math doesn't math, right?

The other thing I want to say is there are people who share various identities that are really important to you who have more money than you do, like a lot more money than you do. They work in tech. Maybe they work in Hollywood. Maybe they lucked into it. I don't know. But people have money, and they're still good people. And I think that because capitalism is so fucked, for those of us who have an anti-capitalist lens⁠—I'm making an assumption that you have an anti-capitalist lens. Yeah.

Guest:        I do.

Jessica:            We can then be like, "Okay. Those who don't have money, good. Those who do have money, bad." And that's not it, actually. I want to assure you that's not⁠—some people who have tons and tons of money, yeah, bad. Instantly, we know it. But you know it's much more nuanced and complicated.

So here is what I'm going to suggest. It is a sustainable approach to you doing this so that you don't just have the ability to support folks that you want to support for the next four years, but so that you can do it for the next 40 years if you want to⁠—is to have a fixed number of bottom-of-the-scale people. So this is going to take you some time to implement, because you already have a full 15 clients a week?

Guest:        Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. You have a fixed number of people that are at the bottom of the scale. That stays forever. And then, if you ever get really rich, like if you get like, "Woo. I'm abundant, abundant," or you partner with somebody who just throws cash at you, cash, cash⁠—if something like that happens, you could even have one person a week who's free. You know?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. All right. So you've got your fixed number of people who are paying bottom of the scale. You have your fixed amount of people who are paying above that but still fucking low. Then you have a fixed amount of people who are paying basically the rate that you feel that you should be charging for a person of your experience, etc. And then there's the people who are supporting the bottom two rungs of this scale. That's a lot of people, but that's a whole, full week, isn't it?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's a whole, full week. Charging a lot of money to some people is really healthy for you, and I think it's a healthy business model in general. Now, listen. You might not agree with me, and it's not the only business model. But I'm just throwing this at you. If you take on patients who have more money, not only will it support those bottom two rungs on your sliding scale, but it will also help you to see, really be present with⁠—because I see you. When you're actually with clients, you're not judgmental towards them. You might be theoretically judgmental to people like them, but when you're in session, you're not judgmental at all. You're there with them.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            For you to have the ability to see that wealthy people who can afford the top of your scale have valid problems⁠—what that will do is help to kind of break down some of that rigidity you hold that would inhibit you from letting yourself be financially abundant, because what does it mean about you if you're financially abundant? And I personally am of the mind the helpers of the world should have financial abundance to sustain the help. It shouldn't just be like people who do terrible things have financial abundance. It should also be this way.

                        And I think that over the course of time, there are ways⁠—and I don't recommend it for the next, like, four years, but over the course of time, there are ways that you could hold groups or create services and products that aren't exclusively one-on-one that would allow you to bring in more money, that would kind of interrupt the one-on-one consulting thing that can get burnouty at times, right? And that brings in more money for you. And again, within that, if you do a group, you can make sure that you have these different tiers represented.

                        And all you would need to do⁠—I say "all" you would need to do. It's a pain in the ass. It's difficult⁠—but is to come up with a questionnaire. And they already exist, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just be really good at googling. You'll find it⁠—a questionnaire that kind of helps people to place themselves on the list.

You can do what you're doing now and then find that it doesn't work, and then go into a sliding scale, and then realize that creating a sliding scale is a lot more labor for you, and eventually find that that doesn't work and do something else, and then come back to it. And then, eventually, you get yourself a great assistant/secretary person who⁠—they get to deal with all that shit. And then you bring back the sliding scale full force.

                        I just want to say, if you have a career, there's time for it all to happen. And it's really interesting. I keep on coming back to what you said, that a couple times a week, you're like, "I just want to retire." When you have actual time, like days on days on days, how is your mental health when there's no structure?

Guest:              It feels almost in a neutral space of like, "Whoa. Okay. Now I get to do what I want," and also, "Well, before we do that, we need to recuperate." And so I'm just exhausted. I'm so exhausted that I can't even think about emotions.

Jessica:            I see. And have you had large periods of time where you're not working or in school?

Guest:              The last time I got that large period of time was back in 2021.

Jessica:            And so, in 2021, when you were not working and not in school, were you happier?

Guest:              I was recovering from burnout and literally bedridden. I was bedridden and upset about being bedridden.

Jessica:            Yeah. I see. That sucks. I'm so sorry.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I'll tell you why I'm asking. I'm asking because⁠—and I could be wrong. I'm happy to be wrong about things. I mean, I'm not happy, but I could be wrong about this. But I will say, if you can find a way to work that isn't at your own expense, I have a feeling you won't want to retire as opposed to be desperate to retire when you're fucking 30. And so part of what this is is you are your own boss, but you're being Saturn to yourself.

                        And I can't help but wonder, is there not another way? Is there not a way that you can get more support with the parts of your job that you don't like or that you're not naturally good at and it just takes more energy and effort? Are there ways that you can do this? I don't know, but I'm being shown that the answer is yes. But you're not really comfortable with asking for help unless you're on the floor, right?

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. So here's the thing. If you wait till you're on the floor, then you're not really asking for help. You're asking for rescue.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And there are parts of you that resonate so deeply with Saturn and Pluto, these patriarchal, hierarchal, relentless energies, that it makes sense that you would feel at least in part, at least sometimes, like the only way to do it is the way to do it; the only way to go is forward. "I have to. I have to. I have to." But this will lead to burnout. This will lead to adrenal fatigue and all kinds of health issues that directly result from that, because you've got Pluto in the sixth house. So, when you press yourself too hard, your body is just like, "I'm out. I'm done. Fuck this."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's very intense. But your North Node is in the sixth house, too. And what this means is that learning how to choose to live in self-appropriate ways is one of your soul's greatest lessons. And it's in fucking Sagittarius, so it's not about finding freedom from systems. It's about finding freedom within your body. And the way to do that is by supporting your body. And if you're doing that by carrying fucking generations and generations and generations of oppressive systems on your back so that you alone will be the first to fix it at your own expense, which is⁠—hopefully, you see how complicated that is, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah, that's not it, I guess is just what I would say, is that it's just not it. Finding ways of living in this body and even in the workforce⁠—exceptionally important for you. I don't know. I mean, I gotta say I look at your chart, and I just think, yeah, I think your work is really important. I don't think it's just important to you. I don't think it's just important to your clients. I think that by your second Saturn Return⁠—I don't know. Is it a book? Is it system? Is it a school? Your ability to build is very serious. But if you are burned out at 30, then it becomes really hard to imagine sustaining a build.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Have you thought about starting your own program/school/system/something?

Guest:              No, but I've had other people tell me that I should.

Jessica:            Yeah. I kind of⁠—

Guest:              [crosstalk] put me in that way.

Jessica:            I won't say I am predicting that you will do this, but what I am saying⁠—it is written it is within your nature to do this. The reason why, when you get on the plane, they say, "Put the air mask on your face before you put it on the kid's," is because if you're putting it on the kid's and then you die in the middle because you can't breathe, well, then you're both out. So you always have to do you before you do them, and it's not an act of selfishness.

                        When we're trying to inspire and support others to not just have self-preservation but to give themselves permission to thrive, but we ourselves are holding ourselves back, limiting ourselves, not allowing ourselves to explore our own internal resistance around thriving or surviving, then eventually we cap out on what we can offer our clients because at the end of the day, there's words. There's synthesis. But there's also energy. And if we can't hold an energy container of abundance to model and inspire clients, then all we have is words and potentially synthesis.

And those are really powerful things. They're not as powerful as having those two things plus the energy because what I'm seeing happens now is you're filled up by your client sessions most of the time, not all the time. We're not being Pollyannas here. But then, when you leave the session, it's like it falls right out of you. Not all of it, but a lot of it. And that's because you're not holding the energy of, first, self-preservation, and then permission towards abundance.

And I want to say you are amazingly doing that, yes, compared to what you used to be, but not compared to what you need right now from you. I mean, listen. You went to school, got one of the most expensive fucking degrees to do this important work. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you did this thing, and you've given yourself a gift. You can be self-employed. You can work from home. You can work with whatever populations you decide to. You can teach.

You've given yourself this fucking amazing gift. And I will tell you as somebody who has been counseling therapists for decades that I have very rarely encountered somebody who's become a therapist and wasn't completely burned out by the time they graduated because the fucking system is set up⁠—I don't know who the system is set up for. It's not humane.

Guest:        No.

Jessica:            Nobody, regardless of their resources and their health and all those things, can do what therapists are supposed to do.

Guest:              Yeah. It's devoid of humanity and dignity, of being a human. [crosstalk]

Jessica:            It's shocking, right? It's super shocking that that's a peek behind the scenes for people who are not therapists. It's really hard. And so this experience that you've had of burnout⁠—I mean, you are not alone. You are not alone. And eventually, if you do the damn work⁠, which⁠—honestly, I know you're kicking and screaming a little about it right now, but you're doing the work. So, if you do the damn work, you're going to be able to create a career path and a day-to-day life that actually works for you and that you can have abundance in.

                        You are allowed⁠—I would say encouraged⁠—to have more abundance than a lot of your clients. That doesn't mean you can't relate to them or you don't care about them. Solidarity is not suffering with someone. Solidarity is helping someone out of their suffering. Say your full name again.

Guest:              [redacted]

Jessica:            Do you want human babies?

Guest:              I don't know. I do, and then I want to share love and, yeah, help raise a human being. And at the same time, I'm terrified of one, like the things I'd be passing on into the future of this earth.

Jessica:            Well, yes. Yes. I'll tell you the reason why I ask at this point in our conversation is simply because you don't know what you want your life to look like yet, and you've been so in survival mode that you haven't been able to imagine yet. And that's okay. Honestly, that's okay.

Guest:              [indiscernible 00:59:08] imagine living this long. You know, it's like, okay, so what do I do?

Jessica:            I mean, people live a long time in your family, don't they?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            This is bad news, Eeyore to Eeyore, but I don't see you getting out quick and easy. I feel like you're going to live a long time. For those of us who have a strong inner Eeyore, it's like if somebody says to get out young, it's like, "Oh no. But okay. I can power through for a few more years. Okay." But no. You're in this.

                        So you have Saturn at 27 degrees of Aquarius, so your Saturn Return is over. We're in Saturn in Pisces now. But whatever it was that was up for you⁠—and I'm assuming your Saturn Return was about graduating and becoming a shrink.

Guest:              Yeah, and major life changes.

Jessica:            Okay. And making a decision about how to live, basically, and how to adult, I'm assuming.

Guest:              Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Saturn at the top of the chart. That makes sense. Between now and your 33rd year⁠—so you got three years⁠—everything that you do to honor the lessons learned and integrate and build upon the wisdom⁠—this is what you're meant to do because then the Christ year comes, 33. And in the Christ year, it's like everything you did and didn't do during your Saturn Return comes into crisis.

                        It's like we come into consciousness and awareness around what we are called to do with our lives. We are called into this developmental time where we deal with our childhood issues, our parents, and we make decisions about how we want to orient towards it. And then, at 33, we have the consequences, not just the consequences of how we did or didn't do, but the consequences of how others respond and engage with that. It's adulting, so it's not just about us anymore now. We're in community.

                        And when you're in your childhood and your 20s, your teens, we're meant to be more individualistic because we're figuring out who the hell we are. And a lot of those years, we don't have control. Post-Saturn Return, now we're a member of community in a whole new way, and we're accountable to community in a whole new way. So, when the Christ year comes, when you're 33, you'll be dealing with a lot of consequences.

                        So here's my pitch, okay? Find a way over these years to set the intention that by 33, you are going to have enough people, or close to enough people, paying that, supporting the bottom of the scale, so that maybe you're not going to have it perfect, but you'll be pointing in that direction because what that will do is empower you to see that herbalist that could actually really help you, to empower you to⁠—I don't know⁠—whatever the fuck you need to do to have a little more ease, a little more joy, recognizing that for you that might mean⁠—I don't know⁠—some fancy-schmancy, next-to-the-bed sleep sounds. It could be anything. It's not an indulgence if it improves the quality of your life.

Venus governs our finances, and it governs our values. And I know you've heard me talk about this a lot because I'm talking about Venus Retrograde, right? But I want to give you this perspective. You have Venus in the first house in Cancer. You're allowed to be highly identified with what you value and to have it nurture you and others. But nurturing others is not giving them your last bite to eat so that you have nothing to give to the next person. That's self-sacrifice.

What you want to be able to do is think, "How can I sustain a path wherein I nurture others?" If what you're going to do is be a therapist throughout the course of your life, I want you to remember that life is really long. Again, I am a little surprised that you're like, "I want to retire today," because I just see the value that the work you do brings you. If you're going to sustain this work, then maybe you need support with the things that are really hard for you. And it is possible to get that support. I'm seeing that it's possible. Does that seem impossible to you, or does that seem possible to you?

Guest:        It seems possible and terrifying.

Jessica:      Because then you'd have to ask for support and⁠—

Guest:        Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. All right. Good. If you're going to be scared, which we've established you are frequently⁠—right?

Guest:              Hell yeah.

Jessica:            So, if you're going to be scared, be scared of something that levels your life up, makes your life more sustainable, lightens your load, which you deserve because you're a fucking person and you fucking deserve it. And then, on top of it, the lighter your load, the easier it is for you to show up for the people that you feel called to show up for; do your damn work.

                        So developing a nurturance-based relationship with the value system that we have called money is really healthy. And I understand that we live in capitalism, and to live in capitalism means to participate in capitalism. And what a lot of us want to do is drop out of capitalism as a way to engage with this fucked-up system. But unless you're living off the grid, that's not really an option.

                        Then it becomes, "How can I engage with capitalism in a way that is sustainable and nurturing?" The zodiac sign of Cancer is not specifically about sustainability, but when Cancer can tap into its opposing energies of Capricorn in that⁠—because Capricorn is all about conservation. So it can leaned towards conservatism, but it is about conservation. Cancer is also about conservation. How can I feel my feelings without overflowing all my fucking feelings or needing too much from others in order to take care of my feelings?"

                        There's a conservation thread here in this Cancer/Capricorn polarity, and you've got an opposition between Cancer and Capricorn planets. So really allowing yourself to think about, "What is nurturing? How can I sustain? How can I relate to a broken system to the best of my ability?" not, "How can I make myself as small as possible because I'm scared of thriving as much as I am scared of failing in this system?"

Guest:              Oh. Yeah. You're reminding me that we do get to shape change, and okay. This is a moment of shaping my change.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes. Yes. As you start to thrive, you will always see people around you that you care about and people that you don't that are not thriving and that are suffering. And it is not a betrayal to them if you are abundant. That's, I think, a really hard truth for you to embrace. And so you don't have to embrace it, but I would encourage you to keep it near to you so that you can keep on returning to it and see how you orient towards it. I think, for you, you've experienced abandonment in various ways because other people prioritize their own thriving and their own abundance and their own security. And so you're overcorrecting.

                        Now, I've dropped a lot at you, and I know it's been super emo. But I want to just slow down and check in and see, have I addressed your core questions? Do you have anything else that's up for you?

Guest:              You definitely have addressed my core question. Yeah. Essentially, I wanted to know, are there supports in my chart to help me⁠—

Jessica:            Supports? Mm-hmm.

Guest:              Yeah, to tackle this question. I feel like we have gone through those.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'll throw this at you. And I don't have to tell you what a pain in the ass Saturn is, and having a Saturn opposition to the Sun is not easy. The thing that's so awesome about it is that it means that you have a capacity to not just work but mature, and not just mature but have wisdom. And that's not just about some psychological thing. It's about your ability to navigate the systems that we live in. So I know you feel like you're struggling and you're buckling under systems.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But you're a 30-year-old fucking therapist that's incredibly successful, as far as I can tell. Is that not like⁠—you set a goal, you achieved a goal, you have the ability to be a professional who makes a difference in the world? Am I wrong about that?

Guest:              No. I never thought of it as successful, but, well, when you frame it like that, I'm like, "Yeah." Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And it is. You don't just have the ability to help your communities, but you have the ability to help your communities in ways they really need and deserve. So, when you ask for support, first of all, your ability to navigate the system is support if you use it that way. I mean, you're not using it that way right now, not at all. You could change your mind.

                        Also, you've got that sweet little Venus in the first house. You got your Moon on your Rise. You can ask people to help you, and sometimes they won't, and sometimes they will. You just have to be willing to ask the right people. And because Jupiter is involved in a T-square to your Venus, your Uranus, your Neptune, more often than not, people would like to help you. You must have noticed that by now. I know you don't ask for help a lot, but have you noticed that by now?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. All right. You're still allowed to be an Eeyore. You're still allowed to feel sad and bad and depressive, even if you're getting help from people. And you tell yourself, "Well, if people help me, then I'm not allowed to feel sad, and I can't stop feeling sad, so I'm going to stop asking for help because what's the point anyways?" And I want to say fucking get the help. Support the parts of yourself you can. And then allow yourself to feel what you feel.

If you didn't have so many value judgments around your own psychological and emotional predispositions, I think you would have an easier time living in your own skin. I don't mean to minimize depression. I really don't want to minimize depression and whatever else you may have going on in your system. But I do see how heavily you clamp down on yourself, and there's no freedom in that. There's no flexibility/adaptability in that, and there's no self-acceptance in it.

So it's about trying to notice, "Oh, wow. I have actually achieved goals that I've set for myself. I have actually created a foundation upon which I can actually have a whole entire life. I have actually experienced, when I've asked people for help as an adult, that I get the help I need. I actually have a lot of resources, and I don't always remember to use them, and I don't always want to use them. But I actually have them." Even that you're so below the poverty line, and somehow you have affordable rent situation? That's bananas. That's unheard of.

And that doesn't mean you're not allowed to feel sad and bad. It doesn't mean you're not allowed to feel the weight of capitalism. But also, you can be grateful for those things also. Just put more in the soup. It doesn't take away from all the bitters in the soup if you put more veggies in there. I think that's really the move.

So I really hope that this was helpful. And you don't have to remember every word I said in order to take it with you. There's this way I'm just seeing you holding on to so much⁠—just holding on to so much, basically. And I would recommend⁠—my parting advice will be this: visualization exercises inspired by some of your favorite cartoons are a really good idea for you. And if you can make a practice of visualizing them at night, that'll help because that'll be essentially like you working with more of your subconscious instead of your conscious. You got your conscious mind; you're good. It's more of like sitting with, being gentle with, the inner, inner, inner stuff. And do you draw as well?

Guest:        Yeah. I'm an art therapist, so part of my practice is arting on my own.

Jessica:            So I'm literally giving you the advice you give to other people, then, is what I'm seeing.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Then it's super annoying of me, but also, you're welcome. So yeah. I'm seeing doing drawing exercises would be really, really helpful. And then hold on to them if you want, but feel free to throw them away because you do not have to be attached to any part of your process. And I am seeing that it's like stepping into Pluto, right? It's like letting it go. It's like it can be powerful, it can be important, and I can let it go so it's not so clamped tight. Do you have any final question, or did we do it?

Guest:              You did it. You did the thing.

Jessica:            We did it. Okay. We did it. We did it. Woo-hoo.

Guest:              Thank you.

Jessica:            It's so my pleasure. I have a great deal of confidence in you, like a huge amount of confidence in you. It's like you're painting a masterpiece, and you're like, "I don't really⁠—I kind of⁠—I sometimes work with paint." You know what I mean? I feel like⁠—

Guest:              That sounds exactly like me.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. It is. It is. And the more you give yourself permission to work on that, the stronger of a container you can hold for others, not just the more peace you'll have inside of yourself. I don't know that that's motivating enough. The stronger the container you can hold for others, because if your patients or your clients get to see you thrive, like actually embodying thriving, what do you think that's going to do for them? If they see you buckling under the weight of the same systems they're struggling against, it's like a teeny tiny bit of solidarity, and then it's a lot of, like, "Oh. None of us get free."

Guest:              Yeah. You have no idea how grateful I am for this. Thank you so much.

Jessica:            Thank you.

Guest:              Thank you for your words.

Jessica:            It's so my pleasure.