Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Jane, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Jane:                Hi, Jessica. Thank you so much for having me. I am overjoyed to be here. I'm trying not to go into golden retriever mode because I'm so excited. So I'm just going to go ahead and read my question. So I wrote to you and said, "Hi, Jessica. I am writing in concerning a challenging relationship in my life that is unyielding and permanent, and it's my coparent. I know I have a lot of oppositions in my birth chart, and I'm not sure if they're being embodied by this individual. We often joke that coparenting is like being on a team project with someone you hate for the rest of your life. And I noticed I hesitated to even type the word 'hate' because it's difficult to acknowledge that parts of me are wrestling with true hatred. It's draining, ugly, shameful, and distracts me from the fruitful, joyful areas of my life.

                        "I've heard you say that the things we struggle with are part of our path. And this relationship is unavoidable. My question is how can I lift myself out of the power struggle and this challenging relationship, and even more so, how can I shift my heart from a place of hatred to neutrality? Thank you so much for considering the question and all the weird, wondrous things you put into the world."

Jessica:            That's nice. Thank you.

Jane:                Yes. You're welcome.

Jessica:            Also, I'm so sorry. That sucks.

Jane:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Yeah. It sucks. So how long were you guys together, and then how long have you been exes?

Jane:                So we got together right after I turned 19.

Jessica:            Oh my.

Jane:                We were together⁠—I know. But we didn't get married until⁠—was it 2019? So we were together ten years, got married in 2019, and then we separated in 2022. So we were together 13 years total⁠—

Jessica:            13 years total.

Jane:                ⁠—and have been separated now for two.

Jessica:            Okay. How long have you hated him?

Jane:                I started to realize I hated him in the thick of the breakup.

Jessica:            So we're talking '21, '22?

Jane:                Exactly. Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is he older?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. How much older?

Jane:                Four years.

Jessica:            Okay. Yeah. Four years at 19 is like an older gentleman.

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Four years at 40 is kind of your age, right?

Jane:                Exactly.

Jessica:            But contextually, that's a meaningful age gap for little you.

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            And you have human children.

Jane:                Yeah. We have one child together, one daughter.

Jessica:            One child.

Jane:                Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. How old is she?

Jane:                She just turned six.

Jessica:            Okay. So you had her before you got married.

Jane:                Yes. Yep. Yep.

Jessica:            Great. Okay. Cool. Okay. And I'm going to ask just a few more contextualizing questions before we dive.

Jane:                Please do.

Jessica:            So you don't live in the same house, right? You moved out?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Congratulations.

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            And what is the coparenting agreement? Is it 50/50?

Jane:                Yeah, so currently, it's like 60/40 with him having the majority.

Jessica:            He has 60?

Jane:                Yeah, which was not⁠—

Jessica:            Oh, that's unusual.

Jane:                It is unusual.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Jane:                I feel very weird about it. So we started off⁠—because I was the primary parent for the first four years of her life, he didn't really become involved until we started splitting up. And then he tried to hail Mary and step in. And I was honestly surprised that he wanted 50/50 because he didn't want to be a parent, and then he kind of was pretty distant in her early years. But I think⁠—I don't know if it was ego or pride, but he was like, "No. 50/50."

                        So we did a year of 50/50, and then I moved in with my current partner. And he lives in a city that's three hours away, and I planned to take my kiddo with me. And the hope was that he would get weekends or⁠—you know. I didn't assume he would want to take over schooling, because again, he had never seemed interested in doing that before. And he pushed back and was like, "No. Absolutely not. She's not going to school there. She's staying in her current school." And I consulted with lawyers, and there was no⁠—it was pretty 50/50. Again, I'm like, "Who would win in a court battle?" because her grandparents are there. It's her current school. There's consistency. And so they said I could even lose time if the court made a parenting arrangement.

                        So, currently, she's going to school in his area. It's the same school she went to kindergarten in. It's a great school. And my parents both live within like five to ten minutes, so that makes me feel better about the situation. So I get her on Fridays after school. I pick her up, bring her down to our place, and then we get the majority of holidays and breaks and everything.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay, which is why it's not 70/30, because you get holidays and breaks. Okay.

Jane:                Correct. Yeah.

Jessica:            And in terms of his parenting of your daughter, do you feel safe, whether or not you⁠—I'm not asking if you like it or you agree with it. I'm asking you if you feel like she's in safe hands when she's with him.

Jane:                I think she is physically safe. And I have concerns about his mental health long term, but because of the circumstances of the divorce, he really has tried to prove a thing, and so he has been really proactive. So I'm curious about the long-term longevity because he's sort of acting out of character. And he also has a live-in girlfriend who is helping support with coparenting, and she's been really kind to my daughter and really helpful. And I think that enables him to⁠—

Jessica:            To be safer. So I want to just reflect back to you that I asked if she was safe, and you didn't say yes, and you didn't say no.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And some of that might be you just explained instead of said yes or no⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—but I think it's also⁠—when you hate someone, it's hard to concede that they're doing something right.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I want to say we can hate him together and still acknowledge that she's safe⁠—

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—if she's safe. I don't know if she's safe, but do you think she's⁠—we hate him, okay? Let's just be⁠—we're on the hate-him team. Also, do you think she's safe⁠—at six years old, is she safe with him?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. That's important information for us both to have, right?

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I should say, for those who want to follow along, you were born July 14th, 1990, in Englewood, Colorado, at 10:36 a.m. And you hated him before you moved three hours away?

Jane:                Yes. Yeah. Like you said, it was probably⁠—2021, we were having a lot of issues in our marriage, and I was feeling that power struggle really very viscerally. But I think there had been a power dynamic for the entire extent of the relationship.

Jessica:            Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, in your birth chart, you've got Saturn in the fifth house. It's opposite your Sun and your Jupiter and your Chiron. And so, when you told me you got together with someone at 19 years old and then stayed with him for 13 years, I knew that he was going to be a Saturnian figure, a.k.a. an older person who's a total know-it-all and kind of a bully and controlling. Am I right?

Jane:                That's 100 percent his personality. Thank you.

Jessica:            Yeah. You're welcome. Saturn.

Jane:                Yeah. I've wondered about that Saturn in the fifth house because the descriptions of it⁠—I'm like, "Oh, that doesn't really feel like me or sound like me." But I'm sure it is in ways.

Jessica:            The thing about⁠—and this is such an important thing with astrology, is that it's so awesome that astrology is accessible, and you can just google "What does Saturn in the fifth house mean?" or buy a book and get a little paragraph on it. But in fact, the way that Saturn in the fifth house functions when it's not aspected versus when it's opposite your Sun, Chiron, and Jupiter in Cancer⁠—it's going to be radically different, right?

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so the description that you read is probably like, "You don't really date. You don't really have sex. Nothing fun ever happens"⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because that's textbook. But it's not integrated with the realities of your birth chart, which is that you made a decision very young that you were going to do whatever you needed to do to be partnered and loved.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And this is a reaction to your childhood and your parents and all that stuff. So you were just like, "Not me. I'm going to be fucking normal, and I'm going to get loved, and I'm going to have a partner, and I am going to be an adult."

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            And you just did it young, and you did it hard. And now that you're actually an adult, you're like, "Oh my God. Why did I rush being an adult while I was a child?" But that's for a different reading. Okay. So there's a lot to say here, but I'm kind of pulled in a bunch of directions, so I'm going to take a pause. Say your full name out loud, and then say his full name out loud.

Jane:                My name is [redacted], and its name is [redacted].

Jessica:            Does he drink? Alcoholic, yeah?

Jane:                Yeah. He's pretty high-functioning. It actually helps his anxiety, so he'll be a little bit more pleasant.

Jessica:            When he drinks.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Well, I think a misconception a lot of people have about alcoholism is that it doesn't necessarily have to make you a shitty guy or a shitty person, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Sometimes⁠—I mean, most people turn to substances as a form of self-medication, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            When I look at him energetically, I see that addiction, really strong. And there's layers and layers and layers and layers. So the reading that you want to have with me is about how to navigate feeling hatred with somebody that you have to be in relationship with. And I want to stay focused on that, but I can't help but be pulled by your current relationship and that you left, and so you have your kid less, which means you've kind of made a choice that forces you to be in more negotiation with your ex instead of less. And why it is that your new boyfriend wouldn't just move to be near to you⁠—and I'm going to just pull back before I let you even answer to say that gives me red alarm bells about you still dating a Saturnian man⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because you had to make amazing sacrifices to move three hours away.

Jane:                Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I'm having a hard time not wanting to talk about that because your pattern is the only thing you can control. You cannot control the man you love or the man you hate. You can control you. And so I have to ask first, why did current boyfriend not move three hours towards you or an hour and a half towards you?

Jane:                So we are technically⁠—we're married.

Jessica:            Oh, you got married. Oh, wow. Quick.

Jane:                You know, just a few things. Hard and fast, you know?

Jessica:            Saturn in the fifth house can look a lot of ways. This, my friends, is one. Okay. Keep going.

Jane:                Oh my gosh. So he and I have been friends for seven years.

Jessica:            No, no. I'm going to rein you and because you told me in advance to rein you in.

Jane:                Thank you.

Jessica:            That's not what I'm asking at all.

Jane:                Oh. Thank you.

Jessica:            All I'm asking⁠—

Jane:                Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. No, no. This is good. I'm glad you told me to rein you in because I'm going to do it now. All I'm asking is, why didn't he move three hours towards you or an hour and a half towards you? Why did being with him require you to leave your kid and control over that part of your life?

Jane:                Yes. So he bought a house in this town three hours away⁠—

Jessica:            Before you were together?

Jane:                Before we were together. We were just going through the divorce. He and I were just kind of starting to date and hang out in that fashion because, again, we had known each other for many, many years prior as friends. And when I visited, I was like, "I fucking love this town. I fucking love this house." I was like, "I'm so jealous. This is so cool." And I wrestled with it for over a year about what to do. And I had a peace apart⁠—the fact that I'm not⁠—we both agreed this move cannot be for him. It was me being like, "I feel at home here. I feel a sense of opportunity here."

Jessica:            So you wanted to move.

Jane:                I wanted to move. The area I was in previously⁠—I've lived there my whole life. I realized I felt like a plant, and I wasn't dying, but it was like I couldn't grow anymore. And I just was like, "It's scary." And I feel so much guilt, honestly, around the move. But I was like, "For me, I need to breathe, and I need to grow." And that's just where my body and my heart felt called to.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                So that was the crux of the decision. But I had⁠—there is that people-pleasing tendency. I'm not going to say my husband ain't Saturnian, too, in his own way⁠—different ways, but in his own way. So I had to really spend⁠—it took like a year to decide what to do, and it was pretty brutal. And I anticipated she would be coming with me.

Jessica:            When you made the decision.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. So okay. The question on its face, "How do I shift from hatred"⁠—and I want to say feeling hatred is⁠—you're right. It's toxic. It hurts you more than it hurts him. It doesn't do you any good. And also, best of luck never hating if you love. You know what I mean? Best of luck never hating if you care deeply. It's like hate is the shit side of love. Apathy, a lack of care⁠—that's the opposite of love. You want to get to the opposite eventually, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But you spent 13 years with him. You grew up with him. And now you have to negotiate the care of your child, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so there's really important questions for us to be exploring, but I want you to ground me into⁠—do you want me to address the question kind of on its face, like how to move from hatred to neutrality⁠—which, by the way, is not always possible. It's a great goal. It's like having a meditation practice⁠. A great goal with that is that it helps you with your anxiety so you don't have anxiety anymore, but it's a practice. And so you meditate because you have anxiety, right? So the goal is for the meditation to help, but it's not to radically change your whole, entire body chemistry and your mind in a day.

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            Similarly, moving⁠—goaling towards neutrality is the right direction. And that doesn't mean you achieve it every interaction and every time you think about him, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So the question is do we talk about that, or is this really about coparenting? Is this actually more about that part of your dynamic?

Jane:                This is annoying. I'm like, "Oh, I'd love to address both, to be honest, if possible."

Jessica:            Okay. Where do we begin?

Jane:                I think one thing that's really coming up for me is when you shared⁠—it's going to make me cry⁠—shared the alcoholism piece, I just immediately feel so sad for him, and yeah, that love and hatred tied-in piece I don't know how to disentangle.

Jessica:            Do you still love him?

Jane:                Not in a romantic way, but as a person, yeah. I do. And I want the best for him. And I spent 13 years trying to just make him happier, support his mental health. My whole function, it felt like, in the relationship was to keep him calm. We were very codependent. And so just hearing that he's struggling, it hurts my heartstrings. And then part of me is also like, "Yeah, fuck you." So it's like a⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            So what you're telling me is that you're still in the exact same dynamic with him that you were in your marriage and that you haven't changed. I want you to know that that's what I just heard, that you left the relationship without having changed⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—so that you're still having a codependent reaction because if you told me that one of my exes had an alcohol problem, I'd be like, "Oh, that's too bad for them," and there would be no tears welling up anywhere. Now, you know, 13 years is a long time, and also, I'm not a Cancer. But I want to say it's about neutrality versus still being in that enmeshment, right?

Jane:                Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            And so let me get this grounded here because the feelings that you have towards him⁠—do you feel like you're supposed to be taking care of him?

Jane:                My brain says no, but habits say yes.

Jessica:            But emotionally yes.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So do you keep an altar?

Jane:                I haven't set one up at the new house yet, but I historically have.

Jessica:            It's time. So set up an altar, and on it, I want to encourage you every⁠—keep a piece of paper and pen in your pocket. And every single time you catch yourself really just being like, "Okay, I should be taking care of him," or, "How is he?" or any hint of that codependent dynamic inside of your thinking or feeling, you can mark an x or you can write about it. Write a paragraph or a page about it, whatever you want to do. And then, once a week, let's say when the Moon is in Aries⁠—do you track the Moon? Do you have that ability?

Jane:                Not very closely, but I know how to track the Moon, so yes, I could do that.

Jessica:            Okay. I mean, it's very easy in 2024, what with Google.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I only said when the Moon is in Aries because you have Moon in Aries, so that might be a moment. Every time the Moon hits Aries, take that piece of paper. Look at it. Put it on your altar. And start to notice it piling up. I just want to encourage you to start externalizing that practice because you're shoving it into your back pocket and trying to tell yourself it doesn't exist, and that's why it's not changing.

                        Part of what I'm really saying is that you just haven't let go. You haven't let go of who you're supposed to be to him and who he's supposed to be to you and all of these weird things that I think can come up in any relationship, but in particular for your relationship because you were so young when you got with him, and your whole adult identity includes him.

Jane:                Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so you just haven't shifted it. Now, that's one thing I want to encourage you to practice. Another thing⁠—do you fight with him? When you guys talk, do you fight?

Jane:                Very passive-aggressively. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So not directly, but passively.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. And again, is it about your daughter, or is it about any kind of thing?

Jane:                It's⁠—all of our communication is solely about our daughter.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Is that where your hatred feelings for him come up the most, or not necessarily?

Jane:                Actually, I would say the most. It's hard to know because we don't talk about anything else, but I think there's just so much hurt around⁠—throughout our whole relationship, he didn't want to be a parent. And I knew I did, but I was like, "I'm not ready yet. I'm super young. We'll get there when we get there." Had an accidental pregnancy, and I thought naïvely⁠—I was like, "Oh, he'll change. He'll be interested."

And it felt like he was doing kind of the bare minimum to be around, and I saw a lot of rejection of our daughter on a regular basis. She'd try to approach him, and the deep sigh of irritation⁠—just⁠—he would have kind of mental health moments in front of her that were really inappropriate, and he just put his needs before both of us, it felt like, in a lot of ways. So⁠—

Jessica:            Does he still do that with her?

Jane:                I don't know. I'm not around them.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                So I worry. So there's just this anger of, "This is how you were all these years, and then now you're insisting and demanding on being the primary parent." It just feels like such an injustice. It makes me so mad.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'm going to jump in on that because⁠—are your parents still married?

Jane:                No.

Jessica:            Okay. Just checking. Here's part of what's happening. You're so enmeshed with this person that you're not seeing what I am hearing and what I'm saying, which is him insisting on owning your child is exactly and 100 percent in alignment with what he's always done with you and anyone he's close to. "You don't get to make the rules. I make the rules."

Jane:                Oh God. Yeah.

Jessica:            "That's mine. That's mine. You think that's ours? I'm sorry. Just because we split the cost doesn't mean it's ours. That's mine. It was my idea. It's mine."

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That's just the kind of person he is. And so I want to just pull things out because listen. If you've listened to the podcast long enough, you know I am really easily enticed into talking critically about a man⁠—or a partner or an ex. You know what I mean? I'm an easy one to get to do that.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But I'm actually going to hold your feet to the fire on this and say part of what you're upset about is that you stayed with this man even though all these dynamics were active⁠—

Jane:                Yep.

Jessica:            ⁠—and then you had a kid with this man even though he told you he didn't want to do it.

Jane:                Yep.

Jessica:            And then what happened after that was the dynamic persisted. You guys broke up, and you still bent to his will.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You still bent to his will, and you still are now. And what is⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I'm so sorry. Yeah. And what is especially hard about that is that right now, we actually don't know if he's doing exactly the same stuff to your daughter. So we don't actually⁠—when she comes back to you, is she in a bad mood? Does she seem harmed in any way?

Jane:                No. And my background is, like, at-risk youth and child trauma, so I'm very⁠—

Jessica:            You're paying attention to that.

Jane:                I'm paying attention because I'm nervous. She does seem happy. She does seem like she is in a role of catering to Dad. She's very concerned about his feelings. There's a little bit of a caretaking⁠—

Jessica:            Okay. So that is actually a red flag because here's the thing. Listen. Working in an industry with at-risk people in any context is⁠—it doesn't mean much for our personal lives.

Jane:                True. True.

Jessica:            Do you know what I'm saying?

Jane:                Absolutely. Yes.

Jessica:            Because you're so wrapped up in your dynamic with this person that you grew up with that you're not hearing that your six-year-old daughter is caretaking her father, and what that actually⁠—when you say that, you're not hearing it⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because you're caretaking her father, too.

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            And you also have guilt. So you're actually shoving this in the back pocket of jeans you never wear.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Do you know what I mean? And so some of the anger you hold towards him is the anger you hold towards him because he sucks at times.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And some of the anger that you hold towards him is the anger that you hold towards yourself, and you don't know how to process it, forgive yourself, or make different choices when that might be necessary, right?

Jane:                Yeah. That's right, 100 percent.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And it's a really, really hard, hard thing because if you didn't have a six-year-old daughter, this conversation will be going radically differently.

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            But because you do have a six-year-old daughter and you're not there throughout the week⁠—if you come from a divorced family, you know that a small child is going to protect the parent they think is vulnerable in the face of the parent they think is strong.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You know this, right?

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            You've experienced it. You've seen it. And so your daughter is already doing that with you. You're the strong parent. You moved away.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            He's the week parent, so she's going to defend and protect him, which is what you did with him. So we know you don't want her to do that. You don't want her to have to.

Jane:                No. Yeah.

Jessica:            And you don't want her to grow up and think that that's what love and partnership is.

Jane:                No.

Jessica:            Okay. And so I don't have an answer for this, and there's things⁠—if you want us to talk about that, we can talk about that. But I think it's important for me to name that, that there's something in her welfare that you're not prioritizing right now. And I don't mean this in a critical way, but I think it's important that we name it. You moved to be with this other man, leaving her with him, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Leaving your daughter with your ex, even though you don't think it's completely safe.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            When I asked you if it was safe, you said it was, but you're also telling me you know it isn't.

Jane:                Yeah. It's like she's physically safe. I don't know if she's emotionally safe. And it's hard because there's no record. There's no⁠—

Jessica:            It's impossible.

Jane:                ⁠—data. I feel so helpless.

Jessica:            It's impossible to know. Yeah.

Jane:                I feel so helpless.

Jessica:            Yeah. And we are clear that you want to continue to live in this town you're living in, and you want to continue to be there, right? That is a clear thing?

Jane:                It's hard because part of me wants to be like, "Yes, we're going to be here forever and live this beautiful life," but in the context of my daughter and the situation, I'm like, "It's a yes for now, and I don't know. I don't know."

Jessica:            Because what I am hearing in that is this is going to be the forever dynamic, then, that you're the weekend parent and the holiday parent but not the grade school, middle school, high school parent.

Jane:                Right. I hate that. I don't want that, to be honest. I miss brushing her hair and making her lunch. I love those moments. I know not everyone does, but I do.

Jessica:            Yeah. And also, giving her self-esteem happens more day to day in the mundane than on the weekends, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It happens on the weekends, too. You can be a babysitter that sees a kid once a week and have a massive impact. I'm not trying to say you're not having a massive impact. But I think that part of what's happening in this is that there are so many chaotic dueling realities at play⁠—

Jane:                Yeah. I feel that.

Jessica:            ⁠—and it puts you in this fucked-up position. And so it is easy for all the feelings of chaos to be distilled into, "I fucking hate this guy."

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You know what I mean?

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah. Blame him for all of it.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, he's very blamable. I see psychically he's very blamable. But also, I want to kind of challenge you around⁠—the decision you've made to move three hours away is a decision that has really intense consequences for your daughter and your relationship with your daughter.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I don't think you're being completely honest with yourself about it. I don't think you're fully owning the choice you've made. And that choice is not just a choice for your own welfare. You are communicating to your daughter what that choice prioritizes, right?

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            And again, I don't want you to feel guilty, and I'm hearing it, and I'm like, "Oh God. Does it sound like I'm guilting you?" I don't mean to be guilting you.

Jane:                No.

Jessica:            I want you to own your choices. Being with that man your whole adult life meant that you didn't have to own your choices, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            He owned all the choices.

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            And now you didn't even wait three years. You're married to someone else. And that's not good or bad. It is just a fact.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And you're making a really intense choice, and you're not fully owning it.

Jane:                Yeah. I think when I think about the full consequences, it feels pretty devastating.

Jessica:            So it feels devastating. I'm going to interrupt just because you told me to at the beginning.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I swear to God, she told me⁠—you told me. You told me to interrupt.

Jane:                This is consensual interruption. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Thank you very much.

Jane:                That's fine. Yeah.

Jessica:            Thank you. So listen. You have three planets in Cancer. For you to be emotional about something is classic of the nature. What I need to kind of push back at here is, are you sad, but, "Oh well. That's the choice I've made, and that's the choice I stand by," or are you sad because the choice you've made is not a choice you can stand by?

Jane:                It's the first one.

Jessica:            It's a choice you made, and it's a choice you stand by.

Jane:                Because I think what it came down to is it felt like a choice between my child's welfare and myself. And it feels so fucking selfish to have made the choice that I did and living⁠—it is. It is.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a tricky thing, right? Because it does put you in this position of having to own that you're the one who really wanted to have a kid, and you are prioritizing your own happiness and welfare over hers in a real way.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I know this is hard, and I just appreciate you're having the conversation. This is a very hard conversation.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But from where I'm sitting, if you can own it, if you can acknowledge that you have mixed feelings about the choice but you're in alignment with the choice, you are going to continue to have mixed feelings about the choice, and also, it is a choice you make every semester or every year⁠—right?

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            It's not just a one-and-done because at a certain point, she might hit puberty, and things might get worse at home for her⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—as one would expect in the emotional dynamic. And at that point, you might decide, "Okay. I've kind of recovered, and I can move back to my hometown"⁠—

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            ⁠—or, "I'm going to fight him for 50/50 custody," or whatever it may be. But I think that part of what you were really kind of wanting to communicate clearly to me is how frustrating it was to you that he didn't actually even want kids, and now he's fighting you for access to the kid.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But what I am actually hearing is you desperately wanted kids, but you left. And so it's easy to be furious with him and to hate him for what he's doing, but I worry that some of that is a projection so that you don't have to own what you're doing and what you've done.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Does that make sense?

Jane:                No, it does. It does. And I think, like I said, in the process of accepting moving, there was probably six months of coordinating with lawyers to track⁠—because, again, the intention was I move, and I'm moving her. That was the thought process. And by the time it was like, "Hey, you could make this huge risk and try to go to court but potentially lose more time," I was like, "Fuck. I'm not willing to take that risk." But I also didn't feel⁠—I was so emotionally invested in moving and so eager to spread my leaves here, I didn't want to even consider the choice of, "Okay, let's back out of this whole thing. I'm going to stay."

I feel like I am taking it on a year-by-year basis because I don't know how sustainable this will be with my ex and his mental health and this new girlfriend and stuff. I'm like, "We'll see what happens year to year." I didn't think I would be here two years ago. Life's fucking weird, and all this shit's happened. So I'm kind of hoping that we can come around and get her or work it out. Yeah.

Jessica:            So part of what I want to reflect back to you is you're speaking a lot about the past, what happened when you made a decision, instead of speaking in the present. You made your choices, and you're living with the consequences of your choices, and your daughter is living with the consequences of your choices.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think part of what you've told me is that the very reasons why you left him are the same reasons you'd have to be concerned about what kind of parent he is to her. And so you have choices to make around that. And I'm glad to hear that you are keeping that conversation open within yourself and with your partner, although if I look at your partner, it doesn't look that open to me. The person you married is not radically different than the person you left is what I'm seeing. Does that make sense to you?

Jane:                Yeah. No, they're similar. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I just want you to own that, because for as long as you distance yourself from your own choices, I don't know how you're going to get to a place of neutrality with that man. You're still giving him this power over your choices. You're making him be responsible for your choices that he actually⁠—he is a part of your choices, but you are the adult parent making the choice.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think that this is⁠—it's just really hard. It's hard because it's hard for everyone and anyone, and it's hard because you don't have a whole lot of adult experience owning your choices. Right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So it's both. It's both. Those are some really deep things. Can I take a peek at your daughter, or is that off topic?

Jane:                No. I would gladly have you take a peek at her.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                I was hoping you would because I'm—yeah.

Jessica:            A little concerned. Right.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So say her full name out loud for me.

Jane:                Okay. [redacted].

Jessica:            I just want to make sure I see her correctly. Her hair is lighter than yours?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. But she looks just like the 50/50 of the two of you, right?

Jane:                Oh my God. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I would start with, do you have any questions about her welfare or her and you or her and Dad or whatever?

Jane:                I think my initial question is⁠—obviously, I'm just like, how is she doing with this whole thing? I'm assuming⁠—I know it's hard to some degree. How can I support her, or how could she best receive support?

Jessica:            She's a little kid, so she's resilient. Little kids are resilient. But it's shifting quickly. She's becoming a big kid right now. I don't know if you're seeing that.

Jane:                I feel it. Yeah.

Jessica:            You know how with girls, oftentimes, I'll be like all of a sudden, she goes from little kid to tween, and you're like, "Oh my God"?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Obviously, chronologically, she's not there, but she's in that shift.

Jane:                I feel it. Yeah. It's there.

Jessica:            Yeah. And with that, the dynamic with her dad is harder for her. It is hard. It is hard in the identical way it was hard for you, okay? Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. No ambiguity. She is questioning more why you guys aren't together more. Is she questioning it to you?

Jane:                No.

Jessica:            Okay. She is. And does your ex talk shit about you or do you talk shit about your ex to her⁠—

Jane:                Not to her.

Jessica:            ⁠—or in front of her?

Jane:                I mean, never to her. There might be a side comment on the side. He gives a lot of nonverbal clues, too. So she might pick up on side chatter.

Jessica:            Yeah. From both of you or just from him?

Jane:                I hope it's not from me, but I do⁠—I might mention an update to my parents or vent about something to my parents in an adjacent room.

Jessica:            Right. Right, right. And it's impossible to not.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But you're saying it's not like a thing you do, and it's probably not like a thing he does.

Jane:                Yeah. I don't think ever directly to her.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                I could see⁠—I've seen him give pretty clear nonverbal responses in front of her, so yeah, he has pretty strong nonverbal clues of dissatisfaction or unhappiness.

Jessica:            You left him, correct?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Because he has an intense hangup that you left. And his story is not only did you leave him, you left both of them. And he has, without a lot of resistance from you, doubled down on that story and made it real. And this is where your rage comes up⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because you've played your role. It's not just because he's a dick. It's because you played your role. You didn't fight him. Now, maybe it was the right choice; maybe it was the wrong choice. It doesn't matter. You didn't fight him is the point.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            He knew you wouldn't fight him. You didn't fight him. And so now he can believe, feel, and say you left, and then you left.

Jane:                That fucker. Yeah. Sorry.

Jessica:            No, it's okay. It's okay.

Jane:                Here it comes. Yeah.

Jessica:            He's not 100 percent wrong. And I want you to own that, because it's easy for you to instantly be mad at him.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You made choices. You did leave him, and then you did leave them.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You did both of those things. So we are mad at him. Agreed. Agreed. And also, he is not making up fictions. That's the true story. And your daughter hears that story. I don't know that she's hearing that literal story in words like⁠—no one in this situation is a Jessica and is just very direct.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Did you like how I called being very direct a Jessica?

Jane:                The Jessica. Yeah.

Jessica:            The Jessica. Nobody's being as direct and obnoxious as I am. But that's in the backdrop.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think that because you feel guilty, you just completely avoid the topic. Oh my God. You work around that topic like a pro. And you are doing yourself and your child a disservice with that because you feel guilty. And you tell yourself because you're angry at him, but it's not because you're angry at him. It's because you're angry at you. Okay?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So, in order to heal it, you gotta feel it, as the hippies say. I think that having this conversation with your daughter is not realistic at this time. You're not ready to have that conversation.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But you mentioned that you have a therapist, and I would encourage you to work on what is your truth? How do you communicate that to your child? Because saying to your child, "I had to choose my mental health"⁠—no. That's not what a parent says to a kid. That's what a friend says to a friend. You know what I mean?

Jane:                Right. Right.

Jessica:            You say that to me. That's not what you say to your child, because a child needs to be protected by their parent first and foremost. That's the gig, right?

Jane:                Right. Right.

Jessica:            And so what is your truth as a parent, not as an adult woman who got together with a man when you were 19 and were in this emotionally maybe abusive relationship? What is your truth as a parent? I don't think you know yet because you're so wrapped up in this codependent push and shove with him.

Jane:                Yeah. So two things are coming up for me.

Jessica:            Yes.

Jane:                One is like a past thing, which⁠—not to keep bringing up the past or make excuses, but initially, I wanted full custody or majority custody, but I was a stay-at-home parent and I had no funds. So I had to borrow a lot of money from family to even pay for the divorce fees, let alone⁠—and he was like, "I will take you to court." So he kind of threatened and postured me. And I feel like he keeps putting me in these situations, which⁠—again, this is my narrative⁠ and avoiding my own choices, I'm sure, too. But it feels like he kept creating situations that made it impossible for me or made it nearly impossible. And I didn't fight, and I didn't take out a loan. And I often regularly regret that. And then part of me, too, just⁠—oh shit. I lost the second part. Sorry.

Jessica:            It's okay. Let me tell you why you lost it. I know why you lost it.

Jane:                Because I don't want to think about it?

Jessica:            It's because⁠—so what you're doing is you're defending yourself.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You're defending yourself. And that's fair because I am being confronting. I am being very confronting.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And also, you don't need to defend your behavior to me. You're defending it because you don't feel at peace with it⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because you've made choices that you don't feel good about.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that doesn't mean that they weren't the best choices for you given your situation. But I want to just ground you into, when you were 19, when you were 24, when you were 28⁠—your whole relationship, he threatened you. You didn't fight back, and he won.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And he's still doing it, but more importantly, you're still doing it.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You didn't have no choice. You had a choice, and you made the choice you've always made with him. So he's been making bets, and he wins every time because you play your role with him. He plays his role with you; you play your role with him. So, if you make a decision and that decision is, "I'm staying in this new town. I'm not leaving this new town, and I don't want my child to be with him 100 percent of the time," you can make a decision to say, "Oh well. There's nothing I can do. I'm going to leave her in his hands," which is the choice you're making now, or you can make a decision to take a chance and fight for custody.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You have choice.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And when you tell yourself you don't have a choice, whether it's because of money or because of the fucking unfair laws or whatever it is, you're not being honest with yourself.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And therefore, you're going to hate him more because you're lying to yourself in the identical way you did when you were 19.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah. That's so true.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Jane:                I think it's a weird way of⁠—I've realized this dynamic. Again, there's this anger of, "Oh, he has this much power over me. It's so fucking aggravating and upsetting." And then I'm like, "Why"⁠—you know, I am giving this power to him, and I don't know how to even⁠—I'm just now kind of starting to notice how I do it, and I don't know how to stop the cycle. And I think avoiding ownership of choice⁠—as fucked up as it is, it's a way to be⁠—hearing you repeat back to me the bit⁠—this is what I was going to say. Just hearing you repeat back to me, "You've left both of them," it makes me⁠—the thought that goes through my brain is I want to die. I want to kill myself. I fucking hate that reality.

Jessica:            I'm so sorry.

Jane:                It's so hard to live with. So⁠—sorry.

Jessica:            No, I'm so sorry, and I hate that it makes you feel that way.

Jane:                So it's hard to sit with it all, but it's important work to own because I do want to take back my power, have power over the choices I have, and I don't know how to get out of that feeling of⁠—it makes me want to crawl out of my skin. So then I avoid it. You know?

Jessica:            Yeah. So there's two layers to this, right? There's the layer of having that feeling about leaving him, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Which is really, really, really important to work on because he⁠—"groomed" is the wrong word because he wasn't ten years older than you, right?

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            But I don't know what other word to use. So I want to acknowledge this is too dramatic of a word, but it's the only word I have. He groomed you to feel that you were his mom and that you owed him everything.

Jane:                Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so being able to sit with that feeling that you have of, "I have done the very worst thing I could do. I've left him"⁠—being able to sit with that is⁠—hopefully in a supportive way with your therapist, with your besties⁠—is a really healthy step towards disentangling the beliefs you hold that are not true. Right? You don't owe him shit. You were in a relationship, and it stopped working for you. And then, ten years later, you got out.

Jane:                (laughs).

Jessica:            Well, you know, I mean, let's be realistic here, right?

Jane:                Oh, fuck. Yeah. It's so true. Yep.

Jessica:            Okay. Yeah. Real talks, right? Okay. Now, I want to hold the dynamic with your daughter in a completely different place because you are not in an equal, reciprocal relationship with a child. You are the parent. And that you left⁠—it is a different thing, and it does have different implications, and it may or may not be right for you. I'm not 100 percent clear that it is the right choice for you. I am not 100 percent clear that it's the wrong choice for you. I think that you are holding the choice you've made with your daughter and the choice you've made with your ex-husband in the same hand, and it's not possible to hold them separately when you're holding them in the same hand because whatever guilt you feel⁠—some of that's appropriate for your daughter, you know?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            "I've left this person that I love and I want to take care of, and that feels bad because it's not right for me." We make choices that are not right for us all the time, and this is one. And that doesn't mean, at the end of the day, it's wrong or at the end of calculations wrong. But it is obviously not your best choice in your life.

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            That is completely different than leaving your husband.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Leaving your husband⁠—you have all these feelings and beliefs and ideas that you shouldn't have left him and that it's your fault that you left, and that shit needs to be broken down and put in the compost bin.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            It has to be food for fishes or worms or whatever, right?

Jane:                It's so funny you say that. We have worm compost.

Jessica:            Okay, because I was seeing that. I was seeing that. Okay. Good. So that metaphor lands. But you see, to hold them separately is really important because I think both you and your ex-husband are doing this with your child: you're both conflating your child with your ex. And as a child of divorce, you know how shitty that is and how confusing that is.

Jane:                Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            But it is happening for her. And she's young enough that you're not seeing behaviors out of her in reaction to it. That's going to change real quick because when the seventh year occurs, that's where we have our first Saturn square, and individuation from our parents happens on a level that you just don't see before the age of seven. Okay?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So I think that this is a really important thing for you to be able to hold separate.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            There is a way that you telling yourself that you didn't have a choice and you had to leave her with him⁠—I just want to call a little bit of bullshit on that. You had a choice. You made a choice. You don't like that choice, and it makes you feel sick inside to live with it, which is what tells you that it's not completely the right choice for you.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And again, I want to hold space for that's not a conclusive statement, but it is a truth. And if you can't hold that truth, how can you parent her around the choice you've made?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

Jane:                Yeah. It does. It does. I feel at a loss of what⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            What the fuck to do, right? Like, what do you do?

Jane:                How to hold it and how to⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I'm going to pull back, and I'm going to say this. Part of my understanding of the human condition and how humans function is, when we accept who we are and the choices we've made, we have more agency. That's my belief, is that we have more agency. And what all of us do to some extent or another, and what all of us do dramatically in some places of our lives and in some places of our psyches, is we abscond with agency. We just completely are like, "I have no agency. I have no choice. It's not in my hands." And in those places, we are constantly confused at why we feel so terrible. Right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I was fully prepared in this conversation⁠—when I read your question, I was like, "Oh, we're going to talk about how you can stop hating your fucking ex. Yeah. Let's do this." But actually, it's a really different conversation than what I thought because what I'm really seeing is, how can you own your agency⁠—you chose to be with him when you were 19, but you kept on choosing it at 25, and you kept on choosing it at 30. And you chose to have a kid with him even though you knew he didn't want it, and you gave him rights knowing how he uses rights.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And it's easy to be mad at him. And I'm not saying don't be mad at him. You can be mad at everyone if you want. Do you know what I mean?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But being mad at him is not the same as hate, which poisons you and is toxic and it's consuming, and it empowers you to not think about your own choices, and it robs you of your agency. It binds you to the object of your hate.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And being bound to how much you fucking hate this dude is so much easier than owning that you are not at peace with some of your choices.

Jane:                Oof. Yeah. Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. The more you can own the choices you've made, the more you'll be able to see that he is making choices. That's all he's doing. He is not trying to harm you. He is trying to prove his own right to exist. That's why you want to take care of him like he's a tiny baby, even though he's a bully⁠—

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because he is, at core, insecure, sad, depressive, and scared. And he's making choices to constantly put brick upon brick upon brick in front of himself to protect himself from his own insecurities, and all it does is makes him impossible to reach.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            He's way too defended.

Jane:                Yeah. Yes.

Jessica:            And you set up camp outside that wall, and you feel like it's your job to maintain that wall, right?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            Keep it pretty. Keep away flies. It's just your job.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And you're married to someone else. You've made a lot of choices. But you're still doing it, and that hurts you. But also, there is a part of you that feels that that makes you a good person.

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I want to say emphatically, uh-uh. No. It makes you an enabler. Right? But not a good person.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And again, I want to hold that in a completely separate hand from⁠—you have concerns about the emotional safety of this man, and your child is with him five days a week.

Jane:                Yeah. Yes.

Jessica:            And I do want you to own that, and I do want you to feel uncomfortable with that because your daughter's safety is the most important, and she has no agency.

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            You have all the agency. So, in this situation, you are basically your husband to your daughter. As your husband was to you, you are to your child, in that you are making the decisions and you have the control.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that's so hard for you to own. It's so hard for you to inhabit that it shuts you down, you disassociate, and then your thoughts go back to him and how he's doing this and he did that.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Did one of your parents do that to you⁠—not really own the fact that they were the parent and they were supposed to be making decisions?

Jane:                I'm trying to think of who that would apply to more. My mom has big dad energy. My dad has mom energy. My dad was the first one that left, and we were really close. So I feel like that probably is a better parallel to me and my daughter. He and I were super⁠—you know, very, very close. And then he's the one that moved out. I was 11, though, so⁠—yeah. There was definitely [crosstalk].

Jessica:            You were older. And how frequently did you see him?

Jane:                They split weeks. I'd do three days with one, four days with the other, and it would rotate.

Jessica:            So it was 50/50.

Jane:                It was 50/50.

Jessica:            It was 50/50. Okay.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And it was still hard.

Jane:                Yeah. And my mom was more⁠—she was the one who was not emotionally present, and she would overwork. And I'd come home, and she just wouldn't be home until wee hours of the night. So there was⁠—

Jessica:            That's the parent I'm actually talking about.

Jane:                Oh. Okay.

Jessica:            So the part about the leaving⁠—of course, that's like your dad, right? And you know that it meant a lot to you that he left, right?

Jane:                Yes. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Don't tell yourself that it doesn't mean a lot to her because she's six. It does.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Just so we're clear. Again, I want you to own your choices so that you can live with your choices.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            The choices you've made are unchangeable, the ones you already made. You have a new choice every single day, but the ones you've already made are done. So you have to own that if you want peace.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think the whole reason why you wrote to me is because you're fucking not with peace right now.

Jane:                No. No, I'm not. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so you're living in this great town, and you're in this relationship, and you're in this great house, and yet it's robbing you of your peace because some of what you've done is you're not owning it and because it's not in alignment.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I'm flooping around⁠—my brain is starting to floop around because we've reached⁠—your nervous system is like, "Okay. I'm out." It's like your body is kind of having a hard time staying focused now, right? Am I clocking that correctly?

Jane:                Yeah. I'm trying⁠—it's not been too bad, but I've noticed⁠—

Jessica:            It's shifting a little.

Jane:                ⁠—a little shift. And then I'm like, "No. Focus. Be present"⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah. And that's okay.

Jane:                ⁠—because I get overstimulated. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Everybody does. This is an incredibly confronting conversation. You are doing a great job. And it's good that we can both acknowledge, okay, so it's hard to stay present. So let's stay with that, right?

Jane:                Okay.

Jessica:            What is the first name of your ex?

Jane:                [redacted].

Jessica:            He's not even asking you questions about schooling and stuff like that; he's just making decisions?

Jane:                Oh my God. Yeah. You hit the nail on the head.

Jessica:            Yeah. And then you find out about the decisions, and you're like, "Wait. What?" And then you fight with him?

Jane:                Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Jane:                Yep. You nailed it.

Jessica:            Yeah. So let's flip it. Let's say he moved away three hours to live with a new woman, and you were the full-time parent at school. Would you be checking in with him about decisions?

Jane:                I feel like⁠—

Jessica:            Girl, you know you would not.

Jane:                You don't think so? I feel like I would.

Jessica:            Would you? Would you really be texting him about decisions if he left?

Jane:                Well, we have⁠—because it's been shit like he hasn't notified me of doctor's appointments, which is in our parenting agreement.

Jessica:            Oh. It's legally binding he should.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But it's interesting to me that you think you would involve him.

Jane:                Oh, I totally think I would.

Jessica:            You think you would. Interesting, because⁠—

Jane:                Maybe delusional.

Jessica:            Or maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I've been wrong about lots of things in life. But with the anger that you have towards him when you left, imagine the anger you'd have towards him if he left.

Jane:                Oh.

Jessica:            You're not thinking about it that way, are you?

Jane:                No. It feels like I'd be relieved.

Jessica:            Hmm. And you're not wrong. I think, on some level, you'd be relieved. But on another level, you would be parenting completely on your own. He would have left. And when he left from within the relationship, you weren't like, "Phew. I don't have to deal with him." No, you weren't.

Jane:                Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            You were like, "Fuck you." So, if he had left, you'd be pissed. And it's already so much work to work, live, parent, and then to remember to text somebody who's not even there?

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true.

Jessica:            Listen. I'm not defending his behavior. I'm not defending his behavior.

Jane:                No.

Jessica:            And I know it's legally⁠—it is not what he's supposed to do. But also, I think you'd do the exact same thing in his position.

Jane:                Oh, funny. Okay.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Jane:                Well, and it's true. I guess I think of it as it would be a relief if he moved. It would be in alignment with what he's always said that he wanted. It would make sense. I'd be like, "God bless. Get out of here," you know, is sort of how I feel. But I'm sure you're right that there would be anger in that scenario and, "This is what you've always done," I'm sure would come up. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It would be a continuation of the relationship in a particular way.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so we have an impasse because, first of all, you're exes for a fucking reason, and we don't need to spend a lot of time on that reason. But then the other thing is let's say you move closer back, and you've said you're not going to. But let's say you do. Then you're going to need to negotiate with him more. You're going to need to communicate with him more. And it would require you to make the decision in your heart that you don't need to guard his wall anymore, that you don't need to caretake his feelings anymore.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And you haven't done that work yet, right?

Jane:                No. I feel like I'm just starting to realize this pattern of I respond⁠—my texts are always very courteous and nice and friendly, and I just get attitude back, it feels like.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Jane:                And when I interact with him, I'm actually a little bit more harsh or cut through bullshit. That's when he's more kiss-assy and⁠—

Jessica:            When you don't play your role, he doesn't play his.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That's what I want you to hear. You play your role, and you're like, "I take care of you. I'm the good guy." And he's like, "Fuck this. No." And he's a bully, just like he used to be, because you're acting more like the pushover.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And then, when you don't act like the pushover he knew from the age of 19 to 30 or whatever it was, then what? Then he's different.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So, if you want the dynamic to be different, the only thing you can do is be different. And that won't make him different 100 percent of the time, and it won't turn him into a different person. But it will change things, okay?

Jane:                Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            As a practice, whenever you find yourself enraged by him and you catch yourself telling someone about all the things he said once or that he did once or the whole thing⁠—whenever you catch yourself doing it, take a pause and ask yourself, "What am I consenting to in this? What is my role to play? What am I actually mad about?" Make it a practice. And if you start to have really terrible thoughts and feelings, I want to encourage you to be kind to yourself around them, but not⁠—"I didn't have a choice" is not a kindness. "I didn't have a choice" is a lie. It's not true. You had choices. You made choices.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And if your truth is not something that you could tell to your kid, I don't know if it's true.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Or I don't know if it's actually your truth.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So the thing that I was speaking to is practicing practicing, right?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            I'm not saying be perfect about it, but practice noticing when you're enraged by him, when you're angry at him. And notice whatever story you're telling, especially if it's about what he said or what he did in the past, not in the moment.

Jane:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            What you said and what you did and what your choices were in the past instead of the moment.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So practice, when you notice you're doing that, asking yourself what choices are you making in the present and asking yourself, "Am I actually mad at myself? What am I mad about right now?" and, related to that, understanding that if the truth you have is not the truth that you can tell your kid, it makes sense that you're not at peace with that truth.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that might mean you need to change your thinking, or you may need to make a decision to be out of alignment on something with your kid, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That is your choice to make.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I would say, related to that, a good practice for you or maybe just an exercise for you is to⁠—maybe do this in therapy; maybe do this with a diary⁠—write out a list about what are your values as a parent? What are your goals as a parent? What are you doing as a parent? Because there's a way that you've given him so much power over the choices you're making that you're not owning the parent you're showing up as, the parent you're choosing to be.

                        And if you're doing something in reaction to your ex-husband with your daughter that you don't actually think is the right thing, now is a great time to figure that out, right?

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Now is a great time.

Jane:                Okay.

Jessica:            And if you make these kinds of lists and you're like, "Actually, this is in alignment⁠—imperfect, but in alignment," then the intensity of your emotional reaction of, "I want to disappear. I don't want to live. I can't even tolerate these feelings"⁠—it starts to go away because it's not this swirl of everything all at once, holding your ex-husband and your child in the same hand. You're getting clarity. You're reconnecting with your agency and the choices that you're making. Right?

Jane:                Yes.

Jessica:            You can't be perfect. Perfect is for 15-year-old fantasies. You know what I mean? All you can be is accountable to who you intend to be.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And as hard as that is, it's also kind of like a beautiful thing.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That all said, yeah, you're going to hate him sometimes. He's hateable.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Sure. And I want to give you that. You know what I mean? I want to give you⁠—all of these deep and heavy things are real and really demanding of your attention and your care.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And also, you get to hate him a little. He's your ex-husband.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            He's very hard to deal with.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            We haven't talked about all the ways in which he's hard to deal with, but I can psychically see and through your birth chart I can see, yeah, you can hate him a little. That's fine. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. You know what I mean?

Jane:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Yes. Of course. This is not all your shit. But the parts that are like, yeah, he's hateable⁠—it's out of your fucking hands. But all this other stuff is in your hands.

Jane:                Right.

Jessica:            And if you work on the stuff that's in your hands, then the amount you hate him will be tolerable. It won't consume you. It won't fuck you. You know what I mean?

Jane:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            And that's what we're looking for.

Jane:                That's the goal.

Jessica:            That's the goal.

Jane:                That's what I want.

Jessica:            Exactly. It's to be able to live your life for you, essentially⁠.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And it's all very hard. It's all very hard, but it is⁠—you're on the way.

Jane:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, all of that said, did we address the question? Do we feel like you got⁠—

Jane:                Yeah. I feel like⁠—because⁠—and there's so many layers. I was kind of curious about how it would go. And I feel like you've just really beautifully hit on the core pieces, which is what I⁠—you know, I was like, I want to feel empowered, and I want to stop siphoning my energy⁠—

Jessica:            Yes.

Jane:                ⁠—towards this other thing. But I appreciate you kind of shining light on the pattern of willingly siphoning some energy that way because it is an easier route than me looking at a lot of the hard truths that I⁠—the choices I've made. So it's not a comfy, squishy conversation, but it feels very good. And it's just been, yeah, such an opportunity and a gift. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you—

Jessica:            Yay. It is my pleasure.

Jane:                ⁠—so, so much.

Jessica:            And thank you because I know, like I said, incredibly confronting conversation. So I really appreciate you being present with it.

Jane:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So, yeah, just be gentle with yourself. And if you have a therapist you like, this is great content to share with them.

Jane:                Yeah. I love my therapist. I will happily share it.

Jessica:            Yay. Good. I'm so glad to hear that.

Jane:                Thank you. Thank you so much for this gift.