Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Lou, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Lou:                Thank you. I'm going to read my question, but it has to do with allyship and perfectionism. So I wrote, "I wanted to know, how can I show up as a good ally and take actions towards a more just world? But I get so hung up around perfectionism and getting it right and anxious fear, which then cycles into beating myself for not doing enough. Sometimes I feel so divided into so many parts that I can't focus on creating something meaningful from this scattered pile of supplies. It's like I'm waiting for an instruction manual to magically appear; someone just point me in the direction⁠—which I'd probably feel a great deal of resistance to if someone did." And I said, "Thank you for reading this and for your podcast. I get so much out of your readings."

Jessica:            Thank you. That's so nice. So okay. I feel like this is very relatable. I feel like nobody wants to make a mistake, especially with something that they care about as much as being a good person and participating in the world in an ethical, good way. And also, I don't know; I would love a guidebook. I feel like, when you said that in your question, I was like, "Yeah." I mean, I also would probably be like, "What's wrong with this guidebook?" But this is, again, part of the perfectionism mindset, right? But a guidebook would be really nice. And also, I bet there's a ton of guidebooks out there, but that's the thing, is there's not a singular one right thing.

                        So let's dive into your question. You reference allyship. Is there any particular context in which this comes up for you?

Lou:                Yes, it does. It comes up, I guess, around a lot of the human rights stuff. I think a lot about what's going on in Palestine, environmentally, and also, this is⁠—I moved back home recently to reconnect with my community. I'm mixed, but I'm white-passing, so also an allyship with Indigenous peoples. And I didn't grow up with Native traditions, and for a long time, it was kind of a hard thing⁠—not hard, but I didn't feel comfortable saying it to people because⁠—without the tradition. I don't look it, and I just didn't want to claim something that I didn't⁠—what do I want to say⁠—participate in. So I really care a lot about Indigenous peoples and being an ally to different groups, and I'm connecting with my own community.

Jessica:            And your own community is…

Lou:                I'm Ojibwe and Anishinaabe.

Jessica:            That's the community that you went back home to kind of reconnect with?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And I should assure you were born February 27th, 1985, at 1:21 a.m., but the place is private, and we respect privacy here at Ghost of a Podcast. Okay.

Lou:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Yes. My pleasure, absolutely, always. So there's a lot of parts to your question, but I want to just start off by saying, when you articulate your question, the energy that I see from you is almost like you are⁠—you pulled out of your body, and you're pulled kind of like a balloon on a really long string. And you're above yourself, looking at yourself and looking at other communities, and even looking at communities that you are identified with⁠—not all. I mean, it looks like there's some communities that you're identified with that you're very comfortable being identified with, but then, for instance, this one that you've mentioned is one that there's less comfort. It looks like there's a bunch.

                        Anyways, looking at all of those things, and you're looking at them from above, and it's very critical. It's a very critical lens that you're adopting. Am I seeing this correctly? Does this feel like a good description?

Lou:                You mean like I'm looking at myself critically or I'm looking at everything critically?

Jessica:            Well, the most important part is that you're not in your body. You're not connected to yourself. You're a balloon on a very high string, very high from yourself. That's the first, most important part. And then, from this kind of⁠—we'll call it in your head, although it's not exactly in your head⁠—place, then you try to figure out, like, "How am I being? How should I be? Where do I belong? Where do I have a right to belong? Should I say this? Is it too loud? Is it not loud enough?" This kind of analysis⁠—it's almost like you're looking for something to click, but you're not present inside of yourself. And so, even when it does click, you're not feeling the click, because you're looking at it.

Lou:                I think sometimes I get those clicks, but then what happens is it's like I want to get everything organized around it so it's just right, that whole perfectionism. So it's like then I don't end up doing anything because I'm just like, "Oh, I want to create these art pieces around something, and then maybe"⁠—I don't know. I always think about how I could either auction off art pieces that would be a fundraiser or whatever⁠—but then I won't ever sit down and do them because I have to work out all the details before I make anything.

Jessica:            I see. I see what you're saying. Okay. So there's a lot going on in here. I'm going to start with the spiritual because that's what's showing up at first, even though we're in that moment⁠—you're sharing kind of the material⁠, like, "What do I do?" part, right? You've got, in your birth chart, your North Node in Taurus, and it's sitting in the sixth house conjunct the Descendant. And something that's really challenging about this nodal placement is that it kind of indicates that you've come into this life with the need on a soul level⁠—so not just an analytical level, but on a really holistic level⁠—to identify what your values are. What do you value? What actually matters?

                        And what's so hard about this placement is that it can turn you into a seeker, and even when you are like, "Okay. I got it. I got it. I got it. Click. I got it," all these other parts of you are like, "But is that the thing, or is it something else?" And it can kind of have you going on this spiritual journey where you're just⁠—some people experience it as spiritual; some people don't experience it that way⁠—that has you going on this journey where you're looking for⁠—it's like⁠—you remember that book, Are You My Mother?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            It's like you're asking everything and everyone, "Are you my mother?" And nothing is, because ultimately, you're meant to be more connected to yourself and your own values. And so, from that perspective, what I want to kind of say to you is that⁠—let's say that you feel called to, in some way, help and do advocacy work around Palestine. Let's say that's the thing, right? And then your brain starts to say, "Okay. Well, I can make art, and I can auction off art, and then I can take that money and invest in mutual aid, and I can do all these things," or whatever it is, right?

                        There's layers of what I want to say, but first, I want to say the layer upon which you say, "Okay. I want to do something to support Palestine," or, "I want to do something for the environment," or, "I want to do something for racial justice"⁠—whatever the thing is that you feel called towards in this moment, I'm going to give you the advice to sit with, for a moment, why. What is it that you're trying to do? What is it that you feel called to participate in? Not why in an analytical way, but why in a values-based way.

Lou:                You mean, by in an analytic way, like I'm trying to make it right, like justify it mentally?

Jessica:            Let's get specific.

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            So, when you mentioned just a moment ago that you wanted to make art and auction it off, was there a specific thing that you wanted to do that for?

Lou:                I mean, what's coming up it's just making art around kindness, being kind to one another. I think that's been more triggered by the recent election.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Lou:                So just to put my energy and focus into spreading that message that⁠—how important kindness is, that we're all related. What specifically for? No, I don't have a specific, like⁠—

Jessica:            That's specific. That's specific. That is specific.

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            I mean, if you were thinking specifically Palestine or environment⁠—which are two things you mentioned earlier, which is why I'm referring to them⁠—those are also specific things. They're also huge umbrella things, right? But kindness is specific. Big fan of kindness, so let's not diminish it. So, when you think to yourself, "I want to put art into the world that reflects my values around kindness and reflects the value of kindness," that's what you're essentially saying in different words. Is that correct?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So the part of you that takes this clear, values-based impulse⁠—"I value kindness. I want to put kindness into the world, and art is my medium. That's how I'm going to do it"⁠—there's something that then happens for you around, "I have to do it perfectly. I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to do it, when I'm going to do it, where it's going to go, what it's going to mean," right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            So that is not reflected in your values⁠—that part, I'm assuming⁠—it has to be perfect in order to be worthy?

Lou:                Part of it I get hung up on is like I start to think a lot around material. I'm like, "Well, where do the materials come from? Are they ethically sourced?" But then⁠—yeah. No, they're not necessarily⁠—I guess maybe around my values in the sense that I'm like, "Well, I want to contribute." Part of it is I've been reconnecting with my community, and I really enjoy the art style of the Anishinaabe people. And I have been making art around that. But there's also this part of me that's like, "Well, I don't want to be appropriating," because there's that part of me that doesn't quite 100 percent accept my own belonging. I entangle a lot in it, I feel like.

Jessica:            Yeah. What I'm struggling with is you are talking to a very Capricorn Capricorn, right? So I'm a bit of a literalist. So there's also⁠—you've got the Sun and Mercury both in Pisces, so we're going to find it. We're going to find it. But let me just kind of reflect back to you⁠—so, when you framed the question to me, it was allyship and perfectionism. But then, as we start to actually just open the door on the topic, it's about art and the creation of art and perfectionism around art, which is not in any way exclusive or fully encompassing the topic of allyship and perfectionism. But is that where it plays out, or does it play out across the board in your life?

Lou:                It does play out there. That is kind of where I express a lot, or when I can get into that space of expressing, I think a lot in allyship of that, where it's like I want to donate, I guess. It's like that's kind of where my mind starts going. I'm like, "Oh, I could create this thing," and then there's different⁠, like, Artists for Palestine groups out there. And I'm like, "Oh, I can contribute [indiscernible 00:11:58] families are being [indiscernible 00:12:00] right now."

                        Then there's also⁠—I would also speak to the allyship as just⁠—I struggle with having the actual voice around it. I know what I care about, but putting myself out there, like maybe on social media⁠—recently, I had been invited to this organization. It was just starting up, and it was around kind of our local democracy. And it was just postelection. And I just managed to talk myself out of going because I was just like⁠—I came up with all these excuses why I can't go or why I shouldn't go. And I feel like that's what I end up doing, is I just⁠—I talk myself out of things.

Jessica:            Okay.

Lou:                I struggle with having that voice.

Jessica:            And⁠—

Lou:                Sorry. I'm all over the place.

Jessica:            No, it's okay.

Lou:                That's how I feel, though.

Jessica:            But that's what we're here to talk about, is the ways in which⁠—is clarity of purpose and clarity of intent, and then somewhere between that clarity and picking up a pen to draw something or to post⁠—picking up your little post finger or leaving the house and going to the group⁠—something gets in the way.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            And it does sound like it's perfectionism, not exclusively perfectionism, but that's part of it. There's layers here. State your full name out loud for me.

Lou:                [redacted].

Jessica:            So I'm going to come back to the things that I was trying to articulate before, and hopefully I'm going to do it better now. There is a way that you want kind of everything all at once, and that is perfectly reasonable. You're a person. I do, too. We all do. We're just like⁠—yeah. I'm sitting in an office I haven't put together yet, and I want it magically perfectly done, and I want it dialed instead of having to be like, "Let me try putting this here." You know what I mean? It's⁠—okay, fair. That's a human thing.

                        What I am seeing happens for you is that when you think about whatever it was you told yourself when you talked yourself out of going to the meeting, which⁠—you could have gone to the meeting and left halfway through. You could have gone to the meeting and been like, "I'm never going to go there again." You could have gone to the meeting and had an amazing time. Any number of things could have happened. But what wouldn't happen is going to the meeting would lock you in and force you to stay and participate, even if you didn't like it and it didn't vibe with your values. That's what wouldn't happen. Another thing that wouldn't happen is⁠—let's say you make a piece of art, and you use a material that is unethically sourced. That wouldn't mean that you're a bad person. It wouldn't mean that you're an enemy to the environment. And it wouldn't mean that you couldn't learn from that error and do better next time.

                        Part of what happens in your thinking is that it's like, "Well, what I do in this moment is what I am," instead of, "What I do in this moment is what I can do in this moment. And it's better for me to make progress in the direction of my values than"⁠—see, this is where it's like it all falls apart. I'm looking at you energetically, and what starts to really fall apart is you have this part of you what's so fucking clear about what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong and what you want to do, and not always clear about how to do it, but there is this part of you that is not harmed by not knowing exactly what to do and when and how to do it exactly. You have this clarity inside of you. Am I seeing that correctly?

Lou:                Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that way. And I just⁠—for a long time, I felt like there was just a block, like a physical block that, you know, wasn't actually physically there. I don't feel that as much anymore, but it's still just kind of like⁠—the scatteredness of it.

Jessica:            Yeah. Listen. Some of your scatteredness is your nature. You know what I mean? You got a Mercury/Uranus square. You can be thinking about five things at once. You can have three projects going at once and be totally focused on all of them. There is an element of that that is your nature. And then there's an element of that scattered feeling which is a coping mechanism because it is hard for you to tolerate your fears.

And again, this thing about fear is halting you from trying because trying and failing feels like, "If I went to the meeting and everyone was super cool and amazing and I didn't fit in, that would be fucking⁠—it would just make me feel so bad. It's not worth my energy right now," or alternatively, "If everyone was absolutely terrible, how would I extricate myself from the situation?" It's not one direction. It's just like, "I don't know if I want to deal with all the things that could go wrong here."

Lou:                I feel like that's a huge thing that shows up for me, where I'm like, "I'm just going to slip out the door"⁠—

Jessica:            Yes.

Lou:                ⁠—"and not be seen."

Jessica:            So okay. Good. You want to leave without saying goodbye? That is good. And this is really important. I'm glad this is coming up because I think that part⁠—and to be fair, you have a Saturn conjunction to the Ascendant, and it's very tight, okay? And this is a lot of what we're really talking about here, is that there is this part of you that's⁠—you're conflating all of your parts; you're being overly compact in your thinking about yourself, which is where it's like, okay, yeah. So you're somebody who's like, "I'm going to go when I'm going to go. Bye. I'm going to peace out when I peace out," right? Excellent.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            And that's really different than, "I'm going to obsessively think about all the things that could go wrong before I even try, and then I'm going to either not really try, or I'm going to try, but I'm going to be in a state of stress the whole time, that I'm not really present."

Lou:                Yes. Yes. That makes so much sense. I've been excited to have this chat. Since we set it up, I've had raising anxiety.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Lou:                And so that anxiety has⁠—I just get so overwhelmed before doing a thing, and that⁠—a lot of times, I go to a thing, and I'm just uncomfortable because I feel it⁠—like, I get a really tight stomach or that anxiety bloating, kind of.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, listen. I can relate. You know I do a fair amount of public speaking. I don't sleep for days. It used to be weeks. I will make myself sick before I do things. Yeah. I mean, I really do identify with what you're talking about, and also, yes, I see it astrologically and also energetically. Yes. Check, check, check. Also, we're back to the balloon.

                        When you reach a level of activation⁠—so, in this example, you have the opportunity to get a reading. You wanted the reading. You sent an email for the reading. And then the opportunity came, and you were like, "Now I have to have a reading, and in public. Oh shit. What does it mean? Ahh." Right? Like, all the things.

That Saturnine activation, that anxiety activation⁠—whatever we want to call it⁠—what it does is it basically says⁠—in lots of different complicated ways, but basically, what it says is, "What if you do it wrong? What if it means you are wrong? What if it means you are wrong? What if it means you're stuck? What if it means you can't get out? What if it means it's bad? What if it means you're bad? What if it means I'm stuck?" That's essentially⁠—is just fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. That's basically what happens.

Lou:  For sure. Yes.

Jessica:            And so your coping mechanism is you start to leave your body a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. The balloon goes higher and higher and higher, further and further and further from you, because you don't want to feel shitty and to be tortured by your own fears, and so you kind of disassociate. And as you disassociate, now you feel anxious and scared. Now you're like, "I don't know if I'm coming or going. I don't know how to keep myself safe. It's like I've opened all the doors and all the windows, and I'm scared someone's coming inside." Right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            So it's like your coping mechanism⁠—

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—at one point worked for you, but it does not work in navigating other people. It just doesn't work. It makes you feel worse nine out of ten times. I mean, one out of ten times, it does work. But nine out of ten times, it is a no-go. It is a bad situation. And so let's just stay⁠—

Lou:                [crosstalk].

Jessica:            Yeah. So let's just stay with them for just one second because I want to just⁠, now that we're in this⁠—it's almost like, in our conversation so far, we've been kind of walking through the forest and trying to navigate, really, a narrow corridor of trees, and it's been dark. And now we've come to a bit of an opening, right?

Lou:                Okay. Yes.

Jessica:            And so, in this opening, I just want to acknowledge that you have choice, and you have agency. And here's the problem. You don't believe you can take care of yourself, and so when I say to you, "Hey, girl, you got choice. You have agency," that doesn't make you feel better. I just saw that when I said it. So sorry. So sorry. I see. And then, from this place, you can compare your suffering and your struggles to the suffering and struggles of other people, and then yours are not as bad as other people's in your estimation because you exclusively compare yourself to people who are suffering more. And now we are in the kind of disassociated, fear-based, perfectionistic stasis. Now there's nothing you can do, and you're not moving, right? Does this feel like I nailed it? Did I get there?

Lou:                Yes. Yes, it does. Yes.

Jessica:            We got there. Okay. So sorry/good. I'm going to give you the most annoying advice in the whole, entire world.

Lou:                Okay. Let's hear it.

Jessica:            I'm not going to find it annoying, but you're going to find it annoying. Here it is. Practice being wrong and making mistakes first. Let me just slow down. Now we're back in the forest. Now we're back in this dark corridor. So I just want to acknowledge I'm seeing the shift in the energy, right? Let me say this. The community that you're a part of now⁠—is it an art-based community?

Lou:                No, it's not. We use the word "tribe" around here, so it's like my tribal community. So it's Ojibwe tribe. I have moved back home for⁠—I mean, basically to reconnect with my tribe⁠—I'm learning their language⁠—be closer to my family, and go back to school.

Jessica:            Okay. So you said "their" language, not "our" language.

Lou:                Oh. I thought I said our language. But I do say that, because I still feel like I don't⁠—even when I talk to my dad about it and it's through, like⁠—my ancestry is through my dad, and he's like⁠—he doesn't get it either, what I'm doing. He's like, "Oh"⁠—you know, he diminishes how much ancestry we have. And so he wasn't brought up with it either. It's not out of a disrespect thing against it. He's like, "I don't even think we're as much⁠"—as we're registered, like blood count or whatever. And I'm like, "That's fine. I don't care." I'm honoring the parts of me that are. But it's still like, yeah⁠—like⁠—I don't know. I don't know where to go from there, but⁠—

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So let's put that part aside because that's a really big part, and it's⁠—

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            Not a question of allyship, because you're talking about embodying your own bloodline. You're talking about embodying your own culture⁠—

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—which is not really about allyship.

Lou:                It's not, but I guess it's part of it. It's the part of me that, like⁠—if I'm going to claim this background or this bloodline and be a part of this, then I want to be an active member of my community. Learning the language feels important to me. I don't want to just be out there being like, "Oh, yeah, I'm Native"⁠—but also allyship with other tribal nations around the country. So I guess that is part how I see it an allyship, but I see what you're saying, as well, where⁠—how it may not be.

Jessica:            Well, it's interesting. Do you identify as female?

Lou:                I do.

Jessica:            Do you consider your investment in women's rights⁠—inasmuch as you identify as female, do you consider that an allyship with women?

Lou:                I guess so.

Jessica:            Okay. So your relationship to the word is a little different, then, in that way, right? Because if you identify with the⁠—

Lou:                I probably⁠—yeah. Yeah. Maybe it is a little⁠—I don't know. Yeah. I know what people mean by allyship, and I think I am kind of blurring that line.

Jessica:            Yeah. I think that the blurring of lines occurs because you've pulled away from yourself. Does this make sense?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            And so the most important thing, like the central important thing, is, "I want to participate in the world." I mean, I'm hearing you say that in lots of ways and in lots of contexts. You want to participate in the world, and you want to do so in a way that reflects your values and human rights in general but also in specific places and ways.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            So you embark upon this path, and then a million possibilities and ways and ideas and what-could-go-wrongs kind of halt your progress. And then that's what happens, is it does halt your progress⁠—not 100 percent of the time, not in 100 percent of issues. But it sounds like that's the pattern that you, when you wrote the question, referred to as perfectionism.

Lou:                Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Lou:                And then I feel like I'll allow myself to get distracted and just go⁠—be like, "Okay. Do something totally different."

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense because if you feel that awful when you're trying to do something that feels right, then of course you would change the channel, because why would you watch the show? This show's terrible. It makes you feel terrible. But there's other things that you care about. You might care about pink hats a lot, but then you start thinking about pink hats, and you stress out, and you get the sweats. And you're like, "But I also care about blue hats, so I'll focus on blue hats for a while." And then you start to stress out and get the sweats, and then you go back to yellow hats because it's been a while since you thought about yellow hats.

And now you're in this disassociated and also anxiety-producing thing that kind of is like a self-fulfilling prophecy because you tell yourself, "I can't do it. I can't. I can't. I don't know how."

Lou:  Yes.

Jessica:      And then you don't do it, and then you have proof that you can't do it. Okay.

Lou:  Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'm going to come back to my stupid advice, which is practice cutting yourself bite-size pieces, smaller goals. It's not, "I'm going to make art and then put it on the internet for activism reasons." It's, "I know that I want to do something, and I want to do it in public. And I know that art is my medium. And so I'm going to just commit to a practice of engaging with my art x amount of days a week, maybe x amount of hours a day"⁠—whatever it is that your life can facilitate. It might be once a week. It might be five times a week. I don't fucking know. It actually doesn't matter. It genuinely doesn't matter.

                        It's, "I'm going to commit to this art practice and see what emerges from the practice. And if something from my practice emerges that I feel is a good reflection of my values and can do something, then I'm going to figure out where to put it, how to put it, and in the meantime, if I want to put art into the world that makes a statement"⁠—let's say on social media because it's a way that we all have a voice, right? You need to share other people's art until you're ready to share your own art, right?

                        It's not a zero-sum game. It's not all or nothing. But that fear-based part of you, that perfectionistic part of you⁠—and I'm calling it fear-based; you're calling it perfectionistic. A little bit potayto/potahto. But I want to say that the fear⁠—if you work on your perfectionism, you're going to keep on being like, "Ahh." But if you work on fear, I actually think you can kind of start to develop a more immediate relationship to that; you can wrangle it a little better.

Lou:                I'm fine with using the word "fear," too, because I do recognize how much it gets in my way. It very much just slows me down in a lot of different ways, and then I think that's when I scatter myself out because I'm just like, "Well, maybe I'll just chase this next one instead⁠"⁠—like you were saying with the hat.

Jessica:            Yeah. So okay. So first thing is bite-size pieces, right? You're going to be like, "Okay. I know I want to put art in the world. Okay. Da-da-da-da-da." Here's the other thing. You're allowed to make shitty art. You're allowed to use a pen that you later found out was manufactured in a terrible way, and then you don't buy the pen again. But that doesn't mean you throw out the pen, actually. It means you just don't buy the pen again.

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            Again, this is where, when you identify an error has occurred, there's a panic response that you have instead of a, like, "Okay. An error has occurred. What is this error actually? How can I adapt this error?" I want to encourage you to turn to nature. When a tree just works so hard to grow and to produce a sweet apple blossom, and then the apple blossom falls and does not produce fruit, the tree does not stop growing. In fact⁠—

Lou:                Okay. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Here we go. In fact, the blossom that is now on the ground can eventually become compost and help the soil become richer. Mistakes are only what you fear they are if you don't learn from them, if you don't use them in your evolution. You will fuck up. You will say the wrong thing. You'll have the wrong intention. You will be misinformed. You will make bad art. You will use bad supplies⁠—all of these things will be true. And I don't say this to condemn you. I say this because there's no person on earth that doesn't fuck up.

                        I fuck up all the time, and I have spent a life of making mistakes. And it's not about being like, "Oh well. I'm just allowed to make mistakes." It's about recognizing making mistakes is how we participate. And hopefully you make not-terrible mistakes, and eventually you make less mistakes, and your mistakes are not world-shattering, and you don't perpetrate harm against others. But sometimes you'll make terrible fucking mistakes, and you will perpetrate harm against others.

                        If the tree was to literally stop growing because it lost its blossoms, that would be far worse than the tree continuing to push out blossoms and to grow the apples it can grow, right?

Lou:                Yes. I can see. Yes.

Jessica:            The work is not to be right or to be perfect or even to be free of fear. The work is to allow yourself to be a person who is scared of things. Like I said, I do a lot of public speaking for a person who literally cannot sleep for days leading up to a public speaking experience. I am not chill. I am very scared all the time. And I do it anyways because I understand that what my fear is reflecting is not the part of myself that I want to center. It's perfectionism, right?

Lou:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's all the stuff that you and I were talking about. Fucking Saturn, man. Saturn. And so it's about recognizing that fear is actually⁠—sometimes it's like a great teacher, and it teaches you something's dangerous. I am scared of standing on the edges of cliffs because I could fall down the cliff. That's a fair fear. Some people are not scared of that, and sometimes they fall down cliffs.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Some fears are actually evolutionary and they're helpful, and some fears are a reflection of our shit, of not wanting to be seen as wrong, or a reflection of thinking, "Oh, I inherently am bad or wrong. And any time I fail and someone else can see it, well, that's just⁠—I'm proving it. So I have to go out of my way to not prove it."

                        Whatever the story is⁠—and fear can tell a lot of stories, as we can see in politics and in the world and all those things, right? Whatever the story is, it's important to recognize, what is your fear actually reflecting back to you? When you could have gone to that meeting the other day, what your fear was reflecting back to you is that you're scared of things and not that there was an actual danger or meaningful risk in that situation.

Lou:                Yeah. I don't even know what my actual fear around going to that was, and maybe it was just like⁠—from the moment I got invited, I was like, "Yeah, I'll go," and I was kind of just slowly been like, "Yeah, I'm going to go. I'm going to go." But the whole time, I was, like, [crosstalk]⁠—

Jessica:            It's the same thing that happened after you got the reading with me.

Lou:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's identical. It might have felt different, but it's the same pattern. That pattern is, "Oh, I got what I want. I got an opportunity to step up and step into myself or to show up in some way or do a thing that I want to do." And then your fears were like, "Yeah, bitch, but it could fuck you up, or it could be a mistake, or... or... or..." And it doesn't even matter. You don't even need to hear a story. Your system is so habituated to be like, "Oh, I know that feeling. That's a bad feeling. I'm going to be the balloon."

                        So you're starting to fly away, and you're stressing out. And so that's what I'm going to characterize⁠—we're going to put a label on it. That's just fear for fear's sake. That's habit fear. And when you have those, it's a great practice to do it anyways. You did it anyways with me, right?

Lou:                Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. And you didn't do it anyways with the meeting, but they're going to have more meetings. So go to the next one. And I'm not saying go to the next meeting because I think it'll be great for you. Part of the lesson in all of this is that you can go to the meeting and not like the meeting or go to five meetings and then decide you don't like the meeting, and then you can stop. You're allowed to stop. You're allowed to say no. You're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to say, "These people are doing good work, but I'm not a match with them," or, "These are great people, but I don't love the work they're doing," or any other millions of things.

                        When you rob yourself of an experience because of fear, what it does is it reinforces that fear, that compactness. That compactness makes you feel anxious.

Lou:                Yes⁠—

Jessica:            Before you get to your question, I just want to point that out to you, because the more compact you get, the more you leave your system. And when you leave your system, you get anxious. So it's like instantaneous compact, anxious.

Lou:                Okay. I guess I don't really know where it came from. I've always had a fear, but I don't know if it's just getting older and I'm just being more reflective. I feel like I used to push myself out of my comfort zone a lot. I always feel like I've been a fearful person. Ever since a little kid, I've always had anxiety, and I was shy and anxious⁠—like, that type of thing. I say something, and all of a sudden, I get attention and my face turns bright red. But I don't know if it's like I just want to be comfortable now.

Jessica:            Okay. That's age, and it doesn't have to be like that. So the reason why this happens with time⁠—because you're now almost 40?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So there's a reason why so many radical movements are made up of younger people and not as much older people. There is a reason why the radical hippies and the people responsible for the Civil Rights Movement are boomers and became what we see socially from that demographic, because at a certain point, we start to slip into probabilities instead of embody our possibilities, which is pretty much quoting the energy healer Nikki Sacchi when I say this.

                        But this is where, so much, what happens for a lot of us in our teens and for most of us in our 20s and our 30s is we're going into the world, and we're like, "I'm going to be myself. I'm going to be different." Do you remember when you found out about feminism, and you were like, "What the fuck? The world is this unfair? What? Fuck"⁠—when you found out about racism, and you were like, "Ahh," right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            There's this thing that happens, right, you're just like, "How does the world go like this?"

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            And the way the world goes like this is because, at the end of the day, most of us choose our individual comforts because we're not comfortable, because we're so uncomfortable. So, when you're uncomfortable 20 fucking hours out of 24, yeah, you're going to start to prioritize⁠—after 10 years, 20 years of that, a whole lifetime of that, you're going to start to prioritize the little comforts that you can eke out for yourself. And those little comforts⁠—we look to Saturn for that. It's how we all fit into society. We look to Venus for that. It's diplomacy. It's acting like things are nice when they're not nice. And so fear does get louder as you age for most people. You see this reflected in how people vote and how people participate in social movements, right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Fear gets louder. And that doesn't mean that that's what we are meant to be. It's what happens when we don't stick with the work. And most of us don't stick with the work, because we're busy fucking surviving because the work is very, very, very hard. So this thing I share about myself where it's like, yeah, I lose sleep before I give talks⁠—there's a lot of reasons to not do something that makes me sick⁠—you know what I mean⁠—that makes me lose sleep. That is a crazy fucking choice in one way of looking at it.

And from my way of looking at it, it's like the best choice I could possibly make for me because I'm a fear-based creature. And so, if I want to fight that fear, then I have to engage with the fear consciously. I have to choose the fear. But that's harder than being like, "Okay. I'm going to avoid everything I'm really scared about and that makes me feel sick to my stomach."

Lou:  Yeah.

Jessica:            And so it's really hard to figure out in life what is the fear and the pain that is a sign that things are wrong versus the fear and the pain that are your habits and your shit, and so it's actually in your best interest to choose them. It's hard to identify for you. Here's one thing I can see really clearly from the course of our conversation. When you say to the Universe, "Universe, I want community to do activism with. I want a reading. I want inspiration to make this piece of art," and then the Universe gives you the inspiration and gets you the reading and connects you with the people, and then the fear comes up, that's your shit, and it's not your intuition. It's your shit, and it is in your best interest to choose to consciously engage with that fear, not like a bully where you're forcing yourself to do something that you're freaked out by, but instead like a loving parent, where you say, "Fear is hard. How can we create a little action plan so if shit gets real, I get out; I can run?"

                        So, if you're inspired by the Universe to make a piece of art, you can just decide, "No one's going to see this art. This art⁠—I'm going to make it in my journal. This is going to be private." That's an action plan. You go to the meeting, but you go in your own car so you can take yourself home if you're like, "I do not like this," right? You give yourself permission to leave if you're not feeling safe in whatever way. I know it sounds so simple, but it's a practice that when you go into your reactive state, you forget that you can just do these things, because in that reactive state, it's this and that and that and this and this⁠—it gets very wordy. It gets very heady.

Lou:                It does. Yes. It does, and it gets to be like looking for that, "Oh, is this a good time to slip out?"

Jessica:            Yeah. And the thing to know is that sometimes you're in danger. Okay. We're not talking about the times when you're in danger because that's not what this is about. This is about sometimes you're uncomfortable. Sometimes you don't want to. And so developing a greater tolerance for discovery is a really important thing. It's a really important thing because your discomfort is sometimes an anxiety response to being challenged to step up, and sometimes your discomfort is because things are uncomfortable and you're uncomfortable, and sometimes your discomfort is because you're somewhere you shouldn't be.

Lou:                Oh. How do I know the difference?

Jessica:            I have the answer. I have the answer. What you do is you treat all of those discomforts in the same way⁠—knee-jerk reaction, panic, knee-jerk reaction, leave; either disassociate from your head or physically leave, right? So you never get to know which is which because you don't spend any time with the discomfort. And this is where I come back to this whole⁠—fail more is what I'm saying, is practice with sitting with your discomfort, staying, for as long as you can tolerate it, emotionally present with the discomfort⁠—instead of reacting to the discomfort, like a kind and supportive parent, closer to the discomfort. Don't abandon your own self when you're uncomfortable, but instead, take a breath and ask yourself, "Where do I feel in my body? Can I sit with that part of my body? Can I just sit with the discomfort?" Because the only way to know the difference between the nuances of your anxiety or your discomfort is to sit with it long enough to feel it out.

                        So people will often ask me how I know the difference between me being able to psychic, like, "Okay. This is what you're feeling," versus, "This is what I'm feeling," or, "This is what I'm thinking." And it's because I have a practice of sitting with it. So, when I feel your anxiety, when I feel you going back into the corridors of the forest, I don't knee-jerk reaction move away from that pain and discomfort. It's very uncomfortable, what comes up inside if you. And because I sit with you and I stay with it, I start to identify, "No, this isn't my anxiety," because at first, of all the readings you've ever heard me do where I'm like, "Oh, this is how you're feeling pain or anxiety or upset," I feel it. And at first, it always feels like my own, because I'm feeling it. And everything you feel like feels like your own, right?

                        The practice is staying with feeling so that you can identify, "Huh. Maybe I'm actually anxious because I'm in a room full of anxious people."

Lou:                So I've been listening to your podcast for a while, and I hear you say that. And I do practice the, "All right. I'm going to sit with it. I'm going to sit and feel it." And I've been practicing trying to be like, "Is this mine?" And is it just me being impatient of being like, "Okay. Now what?"

Jessica:            So are you asking me that question, or are you just saying that that's⁠—

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—what you're thinking? Okay. Great. Good. Okay, because I wanted to answer, but then I'm like, "Maybe I'm mishearing it. Okay. "Is this mine?" is not the best question for you to start with.

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            I think that's a great question after you can tolerate your own emotions because you can't determine⁠—if you're feeling my emotion on some level right now, which is possible⁠—honestly, it's possible. Let's say you are feeling some of my emotion. How the fuck are you going to tell the difference between my emotions and any of your forms of anxiety if you don't know what your own different forms of anxiety feel like, what their textual difference is? So "Is this mine or not?" cannot be the starting point of the practice.

Lou:                Okay.

Jessica:            The practice is first⁠—okay. So you got the opportunity for a meeting with me. You got the email, and then you had a chance to be like, "Yay. Happiness spike. Whoa. Anxiety spike." It went straight down, right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So then, from the down⁠—and then when it kept on cycling down or boopity-boopiting but staying pretty low, right?

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            You had the opportunity to sit with your feelings, and you actually did. You actually did it, if I'm seeing this correctly, because you're like, "Fuck it. I want the fucking reading, so I'm going to sit with this anxiety and get to know it a little bit." That wasn't your thought process, but that was your behavior."

Lou:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And that was slightly because, in a way, you were being forced to. It was a 24-hour turnaround or something like that. You had a fucking choice. You had a chance, and it wasn't like you were going to have multiple chances, so you had to, like⁠—"Fuck it." It wasn't like a meeting where you could come next week or not. Do you know what I'm saying?

Lou:                Yeah. I didn't have time to stew on it.

Jessica:            Yeah. You were backed into a corner, and you had a yes/no choice. And so that is where it's easiest for you to navigate that, because it doesn't feel like you're doing this for you. You feel like you're doing it for the relationship, in a way, right? You're being responsive.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            And so this is where it's like your perfectionism⁠—if it involves me⁠, okay, well, then you're going to show up because you're showing up for me. But if it was you showing up for you, like making that art, posting it online, going to the meeting⁠—whatever it is⁠, right⁠—then you have nothing but fucking space and time to sit in your shit and talk yourself in and out and out and in and all those things. Okay. You are laughing. That means we're nailing it. Okay.

So you have nothing but time. And so this is where, without that external pressure, you have a really hard time staying associated, but you already have the skill. You already have the skill. You have the skill. I know it for a fact because you did it when you had the opportunity to get a reading with me. And you navigated your anxiety not so that you stopped feeling fear. You still felt fear, but you did it anyways. The absence of fear is a terrible goal. It is not a good goal.

Lou:  [crosstalk].

Jessica:      It is a terrible goal.

Lou:  Okay.

Jessica:            Fear is an emotion. It's just energy in motion. Fear is a feeling. And all feelings⁠—they ebb and they flow. They come and they go. It's a feeling. If you can make a practice of staying present with your feelings, even the ones that are hard to feel, then you can trust that, yeah, you feel scared a lot of the time.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. A lot of the time. I'm sorry. You don't get to be like a Saturn conjunction to the Ascendant. I mean, there's like a four-minute separation between your Ascendant and⁠—you're going to feel fear all the time. Sure. Okay. So feel all this fear. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's not awesome, obviously. Nobody is hearing this and is like, "Oh my God. I wish I had more fear." No. But if we pull out the value judgment, being Saturnine means that you can learn big lessons. You can do hard things.

                        But that doesn't mean⁠—you know the myth of Sisyphus and the ball where the dude's pushing⁠—it doesn't mean that the ball is light and pushing the ball up the hill is easy. It just means you can learn from the practice. Being Saturnine comes with its gifts, and it comes with its bullshit. And you are well acquainted with the bullshit, but you haven't actually gotten to be as well acquainted with the gifts because you are doing the very human thing of avoiding feeling bad.

                        What I want to say is be interested in fear⁠—not analytically⁠—emotionally. What is it? What does it feel like? Part of why I, as a psychic, have the ability and also the inclination⁠—the passion for⁠—sitting with other people's pain and trying to understand, like, "Wait. What is this? What is this? How do I find the right words for it? Let's sit in your pain," is because I have so much pain all the time. I'm a neurotic mess in lots of ways. And so, for me, making a practice of understanding the universality of our individual shit is really⁠—it makes it easier. It doesn't make the ball lighter. It doesn't make the narrow corridor of the forest all of a sudden illuminated and spacious. But it makes it so that I can appreciate the trees and the walk and the protection of that narrow corridor.

                        There is so much value of that narrow corridor of the forest that you find yourself in so many times, but you don't get to enjoy it because all your instincts are like, "This is dark and heavy, and I don't know where I'm hidden, and I'm maybe hidden and I don't want to be hidden." You go. You go. And so being able to practice being present with, "Okay. Here I am. I've been here seven million times before. Here I am. This is a place I return to inside of me. What's here? Who am I here?"⁠—that radically changes everything.

                        And now we're talking about the possibility of a Saturn conjunction to the Ascendant instead of the probability, and the probability is being a fear-based person who keeps their life really small and constricts themselves⁠—

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—as a way to cope with fear, right?

Lou:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And listen. There's nothing wrong with being fear-based. I am a fan. I'm going to be like a champion of being fear-based as a very fear-based person myself. It's allowing it to constrict you⁠; that's what you want to avoid⁠—not the emotion⁠—the maladapted response to the emotion.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Now, I want to make sure that we have addressed your question, so I'm going to ask you about that in just a second. But first, I want to tell you you're going through a bunch of Saturn transits right now. And so I was like, "Okay. Let me just check my notes." And I was like, "There are so many things in your chart." It's interesting we've really just landed on Saturn. And then I look at your chart, and I'm like, "Oh, it's because you're going through three really important Saturn transits right now and through February of 2025.

Lou:                Oh.

Jessica:            And so this is a time for consequential self-evaluation. It's a time that is going to activate your fear and your drive to be comfortable and safe by keeping your life small and keeping yourself small, right?

Lou:                Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it's also a time that will bring you back to your roots and make you want to do something consequential. It will empower you to do hard things. It's all of it, right? The energy can be expressed in lots of different ways. I just wanted to give you that context of how much Saturn is running in your life right now and how that's absolutely perfect. It's not chill. It's not chill, but it is really helpful.

                        And one of the transits that are happening right now is Saturn is opposite your Midheaven, which means it's conjunct your IC. And the IC is the lowest point in the birth chart. It's where all the roots of the tree grow out of. When Saturn sits at the IC, it's a time where, if a person is going to move back home, they move back home. It's a time where you're like⁠—if a person is going to connect with their roots⁠—cultural ancestral, genetic, whatever it is⁠—this is when you're going to fucking do it. It's when Saturn is on your damn IC.

                        So, again, everything on time. But part of all of this is really taking responsibility for how you choose to be. The thing about responsibility⁠—and I'm sure you've heard me say this before, but it is simply about⁠—responsibility is simply the ability to respond. And you don't have confidence in your ability to respond. And this is where I want to bring you back to a willingness to make mistakes because that's how you develop confidence in your ability to respond and your willingness to trust yourself, is if you're willing to make mistakes. Even though it feels bad and it sucks and all the things, if you're willing to make mistakes, then you can trust yourself.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Good. Excellent. Now, let me know, have we answered your question? Is there anything that's kind of lingering?

Lou:                I think we've answered it. Yeah. I feel really good about it. Thank you.

Jessica:            Oh. Good. Okay. Good. That's great. Okay. I was not thinking you were going to say "really good," but that makes me very happy. The last thing I'll say, just as in closing, something we didn't touch on in your birth chart is that you have a Pluto/Jupiter square. It's also very tight. It's also only like two minutes off. It's very tight. This Pluto/Jupiter square⁠—part of you says, if it's not really big, if it doesn't shift the world, it's not valid; it's not valuable. Either I do something that has a big effect, or I'm doing nothing and it has no effect. It goes in these really intense extremes.

Lou:                That's where I set myself up⁠—

Jessica:            Yes. Yes⁠—

Lou:                ⁠—where I'm like, "Oh, well, it's nothing."

Jessica:            Right. It's like if I did something in my community and did something for local government or whatever, it doesn't change anything that's happening abroad. It doesn't change anything that's happening here, there, or wherever, and so there's no value in it. And this part of you is a part of you, okay? And it's like a hungry hippo. It's like a Pac-Man. I don't have a 1985 reference. Did those make sense to you? Do you know what I'm talking about it?

Lou:                Those totally⁠—yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Good.

Lou:                I played both of those games.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Okay. Good. Okay. Good. So it's just an insatiable part. It's an insatiable part. And so I want to say this is where, again, you come back to your fucking values. You believe in kindness. Kindness is a small fucking act that has a reverberation that is out of your⁠—it's not your fucking business how big that reverberation is because kindness does for kindness' sake. That is the motivation of kindness, right?

                        So I know that you are not a Hungry Hungry Hippo. You are not a Pac-Man. But there's a part of you that is, and that part of you can sometimes help you to motivate to do big things and to take big risks and to heal. And at other times, it invalidates everything else that you care about and value. And so it's about recognizing that this one part of you, our Hungry Hippo part, has a voice. And the best way to engage with that voice, with that set of motivations and everything, is to come back to your value system. Okay?

                        And I think that this is an important thing for me to name because I see how it interplays with the fear-based nature that we've spent our time really focusing on. And it's part of the perfectionism⁠—right⁠—is you saying it has to be big or it's nothing. And that's, of course, not true, but it's fucking Pluto, so it's like this driving survival mechanism of truth that is not really true.

                        When we're focused on, "Is it big? Is it small?" when we do things with attachment to impact, we suffer. That brings about human suffering. Right now, postelection, I'm seeing a lot of social media posts about people who are like, "What did I do all this work for? What did I do all this activism for to try to get people to vote in this way or do this thing, and they're just so demoralized?"

                        And it is one of those things where, if we are kind because we expect someone to be kind back, that's no longer exactly kindness. It's actually⁠—the motivation tweaks what it is, right? And if we strive to make an impact and we are centering our individual success or the amount of likes or the amount of reach or whatever it is, then there's a corruption to the motivation, right? Does that align with your values and worldview?

Lou:                Yeah, that does. That makes sense.

Jessica:            Okay. Yeah. And so, when those parts of you pipe up⁠—and they will, because you have a Pluto/Jupiter square, and that's okay. When those parts of you pipe up, you can say, "Oh yeah, I have this part of me. I'm a part of the world, and the world is like this. It's a world of hungry hippos. And I will allow that part of me to exist, and I will not attach to it, and I will try to divorce my actions from it. But I'm also not going to pretend it's not there."

Lou:                Okay. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's about recognizing that you can tolerate your shitty thoughts and your shitty emotions, and you don't have to abandon yourself with them. And then they start being more manageable. Again, the goal of being perfect, the goal of having pure motives⁠—I know you're a Pisces, so pure motives can be like a thing⁠—is unrealistic.

Lou:                Yes.

Jessica:            Humans⁠—we all have Pluto in the chart. We all have Saturn in the chart. We're never going to have pure motives all the time. Nobody does. It's about recognizing when your motives are not pure and making choices, striving. It's not about being perfect. It's about trying, and trying includes failing. There is no way to try without failing. So, anyways, I just wanted to just land that at the end because I feel like it's going to be an important piece to help you bring it all together.

Lou:                While you were saying that, I was thinking, like, well, maybe it's in those times when I'm thinking of, like, "It's gotta be big." It's when I do that. Do something small.

Jessica:            Do something small. Exactly, and be willing to just explore the process because, again, when you're too fixated on the outcome, then you're not in the process anymore. It takes you out of the process. That's where you want to return to process and allow yourself to have the feelings you have because you will sometimes feel awful, and that's okay. Feeling awful is okay.

Well, Lou, I am very glad we did this and we got the internet to work and all the things.

Lou:                Me, too. I am so glad. I've been wanting to have a reading with you for a while, and this has just felt important. And I do think with what you're saying with all the Saturn transits, it's very timely. It's been a rough summer but a really good summer, too. And so, yeah, this is meaningful, and I feel really good.

Jessica:            Good. I'm so happy to hear that.

Lou:                Thank you.

Jessica:            It is absolutely my pleasure, and good luck through the rest of your Saturn transits. And keep making art and doing the things and feeling the feelings.

Lou:                Okay. Thank you.