Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Mac, welcome to your reading.

Mac: Thank you.

Jessica:      What would you like to have one about? My pleasure.

Mac: Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. So I'll read off my question.

Jessica:      Great.

Mac:                "I don't believe that true love"⁠—or excuse me⁠—"true self-love is possible for me." Big difference. "Despite years of mental health treatment, I can't seem to shake this. Is there something in my chart that could give me clues about how to better address this so I can move forward?"

Jessica:            Okay. And before we begin, we're not sharing your location of birth because it's okay for Scorpios to have secrets. That's a public service announcement. You were born November 6th, 1992, at 3:58 p.m. Eastern Time⁠—town nobody knows. It's a Scorpio secret.

Mac:                Nobody can know.

Jessica:            Nobody can know. So okay. I gotta say I love this question⁠—

Mac:                Thank you.

Jessica:            ⁠—for lots of reasons. But I gotta ask you, what is self-love?

Mac:                You know, I think to me, it encompasses self-love, self-acceptance, like radical self-acceptance, self-tolerance, self-neutrality. I feel like, to me, self-love kind of is an umbrella term for all of those things, but I do think it probably means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Jessica:            Yeah. Do you respect yourself?

Mac:                I think I do more now than when I was younger. I think when I was younger, I did not as much, like in my 20s, I would say.

Jessica:            How old are you?

Mac:                32.

Jessica:            So you mean like two years ago?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. I was like, "Am I doing my math wrong?" because I feel like that was not that long ago. So, basically, in the last couple of years, it's gotten easier, but it's still a work in progress, right?

Mac:                Very much so, yeah.

Jessica:            So I have kind of an unusual take on this topic.

Mac:                Okay.

Jessica:            And before I share it, I will say you're not even at your Christ year, right? 33 is the Christ year. You're just very briefly post-Saturn Return.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And part of what marks the difference between a pre-Saturn Return and a post-Saturn Return person⁠—which you technically are, but again, until the Christ year, the sealant hasn't dried. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            You're not yet waterproof. One of the core differences is you know yourself, and so that self-knowledge can start to become self-acceptance and self-respect and all of these things.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Now, here's my slightly unusual take.

Mac:                Let's get it. Let's hear it.

Jessica:            You know I got it. Okay. I think self-love is overrated, and I know that's a really unusual⁠— that's not usually what people who do what I do think or say. But I think of love, myself, as this very kind of romantic thing. The way I love my cat is with a fierceness and an openness and an unconditionalness that is like⁠—there's no person I've ever dated who has been the beneficiary of that kind of a love.

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            Do you know what I'm saying?

Mac:                1,000 percent.

Jessica:            Yeah. And then there's the people that I'm very close friends with or that I've dated or that I love in a particular way, and the way that I love them is not at all how I've ever felt about myself even in my best of times.

Mac:                Totally. There's that fierceness there that with other people⁠—with cats that⁠—

Jessica:            Yes, and with cats, and then also with trees and certain mushrooms and etc., etc.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            When we talk about loving someone, it gets wrapped up in fantasy and romance and unconditionalness.

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I tend to be of the mind that the pursuit of self-love is like the pursuit of peace. Best of luck.

Mac:                That's sweet. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Good. I'm glad you think that's sweet and not obnoxious because maybe you thought it was [crosstalk]⁠—

Mac:                It's very sweet.

Jessica:            Okay.

Mac:                It's very gentle, actually.

Jessica:            I think so, but again, not everyone will agree with you and me on this one, for sure. But I do want to say peace is achieved after putting a bunch of other things in place. Love is achieved through lots of different things being in place, and loving a person⁠—not a cat, not a mushroom, not a tree, but a person⁠—means sometimes you are annoyed with that person, and sometimes you think that person smells gross or is just not being considerate, or you love them and everything's good, but also "meh," right?

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And I am of the mind that we get to have those feelings towards ourself.

Mac:                Wow. Yeah.

Jessica:            And if your goal towards self-love is⁠—the way you think about it is as a goal towards a destination, then⁠—and is that how you think about it?

Mac:                I do see it as more of a journey than a destination itself. I will say most of the stopping points on my journey have been hatred.

Jessica:            Okay. Now, that's a different conversation because there's a whole lot of space between love and hate. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So, when you've experienced self-hatred, has it been pervasively 24 hours a day, days and weeks and months on end, or has it been like Plutonian spikes through your chest where you're just like, "Ahh, I hate myself," and it lasts for minutes to hours? It's not like those are the only choices, but those are [crosstalk].

Mac:                Maybe something a little bit in between there, but I would say on that spectrum, probably more that Plutonian where it's like, "Oh my gosh. I just cannot stand myself." Exactly.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And does it tend to be on any particular topic? Does it come up in relationships? Does it come up in anything specific?

Mac:                It can encompass and does encompass pretty much me as a whole.

Jessica:            Okay.

Mac:                If I'm feeling that way, it's just⁠—the whole thing can, you know, go out.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I hear you. And when those feelings come up⁠—I mean, I don't think it's technically possible to have those feelings and not, on some level, self-harm, right? But self-harm is a really, really, really, really big umbrella.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            You can be a dick to yourself, and then you can really do dramatic things. So my question for you is, in terms of your self-harm behaviors in reaction to that feeling, what's your history there?

Mac:                It's a bit of a range from things like overeating, oversleeping, just completely disengaging with myself and the world, and my thoughts get very harmful towards myself, but I don't act on them in any kind of extreme⁠—whatever that means for different people, but different ways.

Jessica:            You're not having suicidal behaviors?

Mac:                Not behaviors. The thoughts, though⁠—that has been with me for a long time, since I was a kid.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I don't in any way want to be blasé about that. And also, I'm pulling two directions as you share that. So I guess⁠—and do you know a mental health person? Do you have a shrink or anything like that?

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Great.

Mac:                I see somebody for meds. I see somebody for therapy.

Jessica:            Great. Do you mind if I ask, what are they medicating you for?

Mac:                I have obsessive-compulsive disorder, major depressive disorder, and generalized anxiety.

Jessica:            Okay. I mean, "okay" is maybe not the greatest word, but I'm curious.

Mac:                No, it's information.

Jessica:            I mean, it is, right? Yeah. It's information. It's information. And in terms of obsessive⁠—what was the frame used? Obsessive-compulsive disorder?

Mac:                Yeah, OCD.

Jessica:            OCD. Did that stuff show up as self-harm behaviors?

Mac:                No. The way it showed up were intrusive thoughts and compulsive behaviors. For me, it would be anything from checking certain things, washing my hands⁠—that sort of thing. The intrusive thoughts were worse, though.

Jessica:            Right. Okay.

Mac:                But no, to answer your question, kind of.

Jessica:            Yeah. And do you feel like the meds that you're on work?

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            Great.

Mac:                Oh yeah.

Jessica:            Congratulations. That's fan-fucking-tastic.

Mac:                Thank you. It took a very long time, but we got there.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean, getting treatment for things that are not great in the body⁠—fucking fantastic. So congratulations.

Mac:                Yeah. Thank you.

Jessica:            Yes. We're fans. So now what you're working towards, if I'm understanding⁠—and you are not just working on it on your own; you've got a shrink. I'm assuming you have friends and family as well.

Mac:                Yes, I do.

Jessica:            Okay. So what you're working on is self-love, which we're identifying as acceptance, tolerance, neutrality, maybe respect, although it's not really your word; that's mine.

Mac:                It fits, though.

Jessica:            I'm glad it fits, because I feel like respect has got to be in there because you, my friend, have a Saturn/Sun square in your birth chart. And that can be associated with depression or depressiveness, right?

Mac:                Okay.

Jessica:            You've got Saturn in Aquarius in the tenth house. You have a very punishing internal⁠—I wouldn't say dialogue. I would say ringleader of dialogue. Saturn is the fucking ringleader, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Saturn is hierarchical, patriarchal, so it's this very mean man inner voice who's like, "You're wrong. If you're wrong, you're bad. If you're bad, you shouldn't be here. Get out." Right?

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            Very dick-like behavior.

Mac:                Yeah. That tracks.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, it looks like it. So there's this thing. There's this thing. I'm pulled in lots of directions. Part of me wants to give you advice in this moment because Saturn loves to be told what the steps are so it can do it, but then there's a part of you that can get into⁠—I'm calling it magical thinking, obsessive-compulsive thinking, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So I don't want to give you something like that that another part of you is going to take control of, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So this is just where I'm struggling. So I'm going to pull all the way back, and I'm going to come to this thing in your chart that was the first thing I noticed.

Mac:                Okay.

Jessica:            In your birth chart, you have the Moon in Aries intercepted in the twelfth house opposite Jupiter in Libra intercepted in the sixth house. Were you raised in a religious home?

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Mac:                Unfortunately. Sorry.

Jessica:            Unfortunately is absolutely the right thing. Yes. I see that.

Mac:                For me, unfortunately.

Jessica:            And was your mother super into the religion?

Mac:                Not at all.

Jessica:            Okay.

Mac:                No. She was very much against it.

Jessica:            Okay. But she stayed with your dad, and the religion persisted?

Mac:                My dad⁠—it was his way or the highway when it came to specifically the religion piece. He wouldn't be very forthcoming about what was being taught to us at church and what was⁠—and it was a Christian church. And it wasn't till years later that we kind of told my mom, "This is the kind of stuff we were taught." And she as kind of kept out of it. She just knew that her girls were going to church, and we were making friends, and it was all good and fine. And my dad was like, "They have to." So that was the vibe.

Jessica:            Well, it's interesting because the fact that your Moon/Jupiter opposition is intercepted tells me a bunch of things about your early developmental environment. One is that you were very much a wanted child. And I'm assuming you're one of the younger kids.

Mac:                Yeah. I'm the youngest of two.

Jessica:            Yeah, because by the time you came around, your mom made the decision that she wasn't going to fight it. She wasn't going to fight your dad's⁠—I'm going to call it shit, if that's okay, as a shorthand.

Mac:                Please do.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay.

Mac:                Please do.

Jessica:            We could use a lot more language to essentially say that, but this would be the quickest way to say it. Okay.

Mac:                It works.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so your mom has a responsibility here because she wasn't completely in the dark. She knew, and she chose to keep things okay. She chose to keep the peace. She chose to stay off the highway and give it to him his way. You know? That was a choice she made, and she let you bear the brunt of that. Now, I see in your chart you probably made it seem like everything was fine. You probably didn't show big signs. And this is directly connected to your coping mechanisms and the struggles that you have because your coping mechanism is "Make everything seem okay." It doesn't matter the way you feel; it matters the way it looks like you feel.

Mac:                I'm feeling that even right now.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And as we were kind of settling into our⁠—you know, we meet on Zoom, and it's always a little awkward getting all the things set up. I really could see you wanting to make sure that my needs were met even though we were here for you, right? So this is like an entrenched habit.

Mac:                Yes, very much so.

Jessica:            And it is no doubt that you would struggle with prioritizing yourself if, literally, your priority is people's comfort all the time, everyone's comfort but you.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Even when you're hurting, right? And so the thing about religion in your family⁠—you have a number of things in your birth chart. So the Moon/Jupiter opposition on its own often usually means religion was nice for you. It was expansive for you. It opened your world up. But in your chart, (a) because it's intercepted and (b) because you've got this Pluto opposition to the Ascendant⁠—it's very tight. You got that Saturn at the top of your chart⁠—that's patriarchal father⁠—squaring your Sun, which is your identity and your sense of self⁠—I mean, there's a number of things in your chart that indicate that religion was a way to not just control you and contain you but to neuter you.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            So there was like this⁠—I don't know if it was a pathologizing of female sexuality or sexuality in general, but there was something that was set up to make you feel like you should not be in your body. Anywhere but you is where to be. Does that track in your experience?

Mac:                Do you mind expanding on that just a little bit, like what you mean by that?

Jessica:            Sure. Sure. What it looks like in your chart⁠—and again, tell me if I'm wrong; I would like to be wrong about this because it's not great⁠—is that you were taught that finding pleasure in your body, being motivated by your body, wanting your body to be strong just because you'd be strong⁠, anything that was for you, about you, was bad⁠—there was something wrong in that⁠—and that what you were meant to be is of service and for others.

Mac:                I can kind of pinpoint it. So, where we grew up, we had big vegetable gardens. My dad ran a sawmill. We did a ton of manual labor, my sister and I, a ton. And I guess I never thought of it in that way of that it was in service to anybody else, but it was. We weren't allowed to show that we were not happy with the amount of work that we were doing to my father.

Jessica:            Did your mom know?

Mac:                She did, and she would push back as much as she could.

Jessica:            And she didn't have a job outside of the house?

Mac:                She did.

Jessica:            Oh, she did?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. But is she still with him?

Mac:                They got divorced when I was 15, and my dad passed away when I was 20.

Jessica:            I'm sorry for your loss.

Mac:                Thank you.

Jessica:            And also, it's⁠—

Mac:                Thank you.

Jessica:            I know it's complicated. It's lots of layers.

Mac:                Yeah. It's very complicated. But it's less complicated than it was. I've made a lot of peace with a lot of things, but yeah, that was hard. But thank you.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I want to kind of bring it in to⁠—whether we're talking about the way you saw your mother navigating her own safety, the way you saw your mother navigating your safety, what you were taught by your dad or at church⁠—it all kind of pointed you towards the same thing: it doesn't matter what you feel. It doesn't matter what you think. It matters how you act.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So it stands to reason that in your 20s, that you would spend a lot of time going through the motions and trying to figure out how to make it look like you accept yourself and how to have the right⁠—you know, whether it was like a meme that you're like, "Oh, that meme. Yeah, everyone likes that meme. I like that meme. That's the meme." Right? It's like this kind of public identification with the "right idea," quote unquote.

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            That would be the most intuitive gateway into self-love that would make sense to you because it's basically like a different version of what you were already raised in.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Mac:                You just nailed it.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, luckily, it's written in your chart. And so I gotta say you're not behind schedule with this.

Mac:                That's good.

Jessica:            It is, actually.

Mac:                That's good to hear.

Jessica:            Yeah, because I know, being in your early 30s, it feels like, "Oh my God. I've been doing this my whole life," right? Like, "Oh my God. I'm still here."

Mac:                Literally.

Jessica:            Yes. Literally. Also, the conditions that we are raised in we don't have control over. And the first time you start to have control over your life is when you are independent of your parents, when you're independent of your family of origin. And how old were you when you did that?

Mac:                I went to community college, and I would say I moved out with my first job when I was 20. And that was⁠—

Jessica:            Great. Okay.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So we're talking about 12 years, only 12 years. I mean, 12 years⁠—on the one hand, it's a lot of time. On the other hand, it's not a lot of time. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's not a lot of time. And the amount of progress you've made, from what I can see⁠—if you don't identify that progress and value that progress, then you're just perpetuating the pattern. I am of the mind that the pursuit of self-love is self-love.

Mac:                Oh, that's very sweet.

Jessica:            I think it's true because I am not the sweetest person by nature. You must know that by now. I mean, maybe you don't.

Mac:                I don't know. I don't know. I love Capricorns.

Jessica:            Oh. Okay. You've got a Capricorn thing, and I respect it because I think that we're great, too.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            I am so glad you feel that way. Also, we're not internationally known for sweetness. See, this is a Scorpio/Capricorn love-off because we just are deep, intense, difficult to deal with. I love it. I love Scorpios, too. So I'm with you 100 percent.

Mac:                That's so funny.

Jessica:            Also, those of us who don't have the natural experience of, like, "Of course you should love yourself. Of course you're the most beautiful, wonderful person in the world. Yes. Accept yourself exactly as you are. You're perfect"⁠—for those of us who didn't get that, which is a lot of us, to be fair, taking the journey to struggle with self-hate, to struggle with insecurity, to struggle with vulnerability, to struggle with the interjected perpetrator⁠—we know who the perpetrator is of your childhood, right? We have different perpetrators for different things. So we can think about the voice of the church or the voice of your dad or whatever it was.

                        But what each and every one of us does is we take on that thing that we rejected in our childhood, that thing that we know fucked us up, and we put a pink hat on it. We give it the voice of Tom Waits, and then we take it on and we put it in ourself, and then we abuse ourselves with that same thing. That's the interjected perpetrator.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so you have taken on that voice. You have internalized the voice⁠—

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—that you reject. And you are in conversation with that voice. That is an act of self-love, period, even when you fail, even when Tom Waits wins. You know what I mean? I shouldn't shit on Tom Waits. I actually really love Tom Waits. I think he's probably a really nice guy. I don't know.

                        I am of the mind that healing is slow and arduous, and it is a process. And on that process, you trip and fall and slide down the hill, and you run into bears, and it rains and it snows, and it's too hot. And also, it is beautiful, and there are vistas, and you see birds, and they love you, and all the things happen. All the things happen. No one could call you unambitious with healing.

Mac:                I would agree with that.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one. No one.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And what is it, if not an act of self-love, to try to feel better, be better, do better when you persistently don't feel better, do better, be better? Right?

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            That is an act of love.

Mac:                Yeah. I mean, I literally have never heard it framed that way, but yeah. I wouldn't do it if [crosstalk], right?

Jessica:            If you didn't love yourself on some level.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, I feel so grateful that I'm Gen X for so many reasons, but one of them is if I had been in my 20s during fucking Mark Zuckerberg's internet, I would have a really different attitude about a lot of things because there's so much public discourse about self-healing and self-love and all this stuff. But for me, personally, my goal is never to like myself. I don't like myself. I'm specifically friends with people who aren't like me, you know? And the people who are like me, I like them in ways, and then sometimes, I'm like, "You fucking⁠—come on." You know? And it's because they're like me.

                        And I think that that's⁠—some people would say, "Oh, that's sad. I feel bad for you." But for me, self-like, even self-love⁠, the feelings⁠—it's not the goal. The goal is to be motivated by love. Do you see what I'm saying is the difference?

Mac:                Yes, I do.

Jessica:            Because if your motivation is self-love⁠—which it is; I am of the mind for you that it is⁠—then, eventually, you can't help but get there.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But if your motivation is to feel better, but it isn't to be better, then yeah, you might not get there, but you might have the appearance of it. So you keep on hitting these vistas without getting deeper into the forest or the oceanic or whatever our landscape is, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's interesting because I read your question, and immediately, what I heard in my head was, "Oh, you just need a reframe. She just needs a damn reframe," because the pain that you feel at causing yourself pain is because you love yourself.

Mac:                I never thought of it that way.

Jessica:            Right, because you're thinking punitively. You're like, "Oh, there I fucking go again. What's wrong with me? Why am I being mean to myself?" instead of, "I have these parts." Right? What astrology does is it personifies our parts through the planets, right?

Mac:                Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so your Saturn, which sits at the top of your chart with a fucking⁠—what are those⁠—what are they called? It's a wooden ruler, and it hits people. Like that. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Your Saturn is really like that.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            And so your Saturn is like, "You did it wrong. You're bad. Consequence. Consequence. Punishment. Punishment. You don't deserve this. You don't deserve that." Right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That's Saturn for you. Okay.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            So Saturn does that, but you have other parts. And if you can give yourself the gift of identifying, "Oh. That's my dad part. That's my church part. That's my 'society is a jerk' part. That's a part of me. That part has too much power and is too loud, and I keep on letting him drive the car"⁠—

Mac:                Yes. Totally.

Jessica:            I am of the mind that what we can do with our parts is shift our relationship to them. You cannot disavow Saturn from your chart or from your Sun, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's not a goal.

Mac:                It's not an option.

Jessica:            It's not an option. And in fact, the reason why you're ambitious about healing is because of that part.

Mac:                Wow. Yeah.

Jessica:            The reason why you're organized and you reach out for help, and if the help doesn't work, you find someone else⁠—you haven't told me this, but I'm assuming this is correct.

Mac:                Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm. Saturn is organized. Saturn is like, "Okay, if this doesn't work, I'll do that. And if that doesn't work, I'll do this." It's relentless.

Mac:                Yeah. It is.

Jessica:            It's hypervigilance. It's self-torturous. But it's relentless. The greatest thing we can do, I believe, with our charts is not shut our parts down, but if this part, let's say, drives all of your internal cars and has a bullhorn, we take the bullhorn away over time, and we get that part to sometimes sit in the backseat, and ideally with their own set of headphones and music or something so they're distracted from what's happening.

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. Okay. Good, because you want access to your inner structure and your resiliency and your resourcefulness.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            There's a part of you that has a real sense of right and wrong, and some of that comes from this part. Some of it comes from other parts, but some of it comes from this part. Some of your punishing meanness towards yourself comes from this part, too. So we want to separate them. We don't have to throw out the baby and the bathwater, just the bathwater, right?

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            So how hard do you fuck with astrology? When you look at your birth chart, are you like, "Oh, yeah, I know what Jupiter means, and I know what Saturn means," and all that stuff?

Mac:                I have a lovely friend who has taught me a lot.

Jessica:            Okay. Great.

Mac:                So, because of her, yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. There is this part of you, as we've identified, that's Saturn. The next time you hear Saturn, know that it's a part. And there's another part of you that can speak to that part. And this is where things get kind of complicated because what I am advising you to do⁠—and do you have human children?

Mac:                No.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. So what I'm advising you to do is to do what your mother could never do for herself or for you when you were growing up, which is to say, "No. We don't talk like that. We don't do that. That's mean. Meanness isn't the goal." And sometimes you're going to do what your mom did, which is be like, "Forget it. I don't want a conflict. Okay. I'll just⁠—I'll pretend that I don't have any control here, and I'll let myself continue to be mean to myself." And sometimes you'll be able to say, "Huh. I'm doing to myself what my dad did to me when I was the most unhappy, and I'm just going to acknowledge that I'm doing it."

                        And if you can, on a scale from one to five⁠—just keep⁠—five is the fucking worst. One⁠—it's never going to be a one if you're asking the question. You know what I mean? On a scale from one to five, how bad is it? The reason why I said five instead of ten is because I don't want you to get in your head about this. Ten is too big of a range for you is what it looks like.

Mac:                Yeah. Totally. A million percent, yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. So one to five, okay? So you ask the question. It's always going to be a four or a five, probably. And then, eventually, with time, it might be a three or a four. And it's about recognizing⁠—the reason why we number things⁠—because first, the practice of being aware is so hard. But once you start to get that, that's really powerful. The next step is understanding that that part is not all of you; it's a part.

Mac:                It's a very loud part, and that's why I think it feels so⁠—

Jessica:            Yes. Absolutely. And to be clear, let's say you do all the best homework and you do all the best healing⁠—this is going to take you a decade or more to really change. I'm not saying this is meteoric shifts. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's more about recognizing how hard it is to even realize you're doing it. So the fact that you realize you're doing it⁠—maybe you do it 50 times in the next two days, and you realize it thrice or something. It's okay if your numbers are small because if you recognize it once in a month, that is a lot more than you were doing.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            And it's more than you had modeled for you, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            The pursuit of it is self-love.

Mac:                Yeah. That's a really, really beautiful⁠—I really have never thought of it like that, and I⁠—

Jessica:            Good.

Mac:                Years of therapy and all this other shit.

Jessica:            You've been allowing yourself to think, "I have to fix the problem, fix the problem, fix the problem." Why? There's a lot of problems you don't try to fix. Why this one? Because you love yourself. Actually, you have evidence of it. You don't need to think it, because you've got too highfalutin an idea of what love of self means. You have been pursuing actions that reflect self-love, and you've been doing shit that doesn't reflect self-love. They're both true, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            They're both true, but it's not just the one. And I think that that's where the indoctrination in your childhood was, "It's either this or it's that. It's all or it's nothing. It's sin or it's"⁠—what's the opposite-of-sin word?

Mac:                I don't know that there is one.

Jessica:            Isn't that fucked up that there's a word for, "You're doing this terrible thing. You're going to go to hell," but there's not a word for, "Hey, man. You're in alignment"?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, I would call it alignment, but that's not what the church would call it. There's no word for it. And that's the cultural reflection that you need, right?

Mac:                Yes. Totally. I mean, the goalposts were always moving, anyway, of what was right and wrong, so⁠—

Jessica:            Right. Right. So here's the thing. Your goalpost⁠—I mean, Sun/Saturn square. Yeah. I mean, I'm a triple Capricorn. I'm right there with you. Having goalposts is not the problem. Having inhumane or unkind ones, being carceral when you fail⁠—that's the problem. You are capable of being humble and learning from your mistakes, even the mistakes of being a jerk to yourself. Are you capable of doing it overnight perfectly? No, because you're a person. But you are capable of it.

                        So another kind of bit of advice that I want to give you⁠—and again, I don't want to encourage you to be fixated on it, but every time you go to therapy, take a med⁠, do whatever it is that you do that you know has actually, at some point, meaningfully supported you and helped you⁠—maybe you're like, "I don't want to fucking go and hang out with my friends, but I know that I love my friends. And I don't want to leave the house, but"⁠—you know. Say to yourself⁠—

Mac:                How did you know that?

Jessica:            Well, shit. You know, it's not my first time, see? But whatever it is that's activated inside of yourself, say to yourself, "The reason why I'm struggling is because I do love myself, and I don't know what the loving thing to do in this moment is."

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's really what's up. And it's not the only thing that's up, but that is what's up.

Mac:                It is. It is.

Jessica:            So, in doing that, it's kind of like⁠—have you ever had a gratitude journal?

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Jessica:            It's kind of like a gratitude journal in that you are expanding your focus to incorporate and encompass what you're grateful for in the gratitude journal and to encompass the embodiment of self-love that you already have. We don't have a gratitude journal about something that you don't have gratitude for already. You don't make it up, right? You actually have the gratitude; you're just not paying attention.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            And it's the same thing with this. It's recognizing that you're Dorothy with the fucking red slippers, and all you had to do was click the whole time. I don't understand that movie. I mean, I talk about the movie all the time. I think it's very important. But she could have clicked her fucking slippers at the beginning. Somebody could have just told her. But that's what this is. This is really what your story is, is that you can't click your red slippers all the time. You can't. But every once in a while, you could remember that you have them on, and you know what happens at the end of the movie, so you could click. Do you know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that would simply be acknowledging the self-love that you do have. And I want to hold that actually meaningfully separate from any kind of mental health struggles you have because⁠—

Mac:                Sure. Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—we tend to conflate these things, right?

Mac:                Oh, a million percent.

Jessica:            Because they overlap. Yeah.

Mac:                Totally. Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. But depression is depression. And I mean, that's not about self-love. OCD is about OCD. It's not about self-love.

Mac:                No.

Jessica:            And yet they come coupled with intrusive thoughts and negative behaviors that negatively impact you, etc. But that's not a result of self-love. That's a result of something else altogether.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            All of this said, I'm going to slow down because I want to make sure that this is really addressing your question and helping. So I'm going to take a pause and ask you, are we addressing the important stuff? Do you have any questions or things you want me to look at here?

Mac:                I mean, it's that. It is that. It can't be anything else because I feel like I've tried literally everything else. I feel like I have tried every⁠—and that's why I wrote my question is because I feel like, well, maybe it's just not for me. Maybe it's just not something⁠—but I mean, I guess it is; it's just I've been looking at it in a way that's not helpful.

Jessica:            I think you've been looking at it in a really Christian way.

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            Right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And it's like the visual I get when I look energetically at your idea of what self-love is is like a little, blonde angel baby with sunshine coming from its center.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You're expecting this love that's transcendent and angelic and literally not human. Very few people love themselves off of MDMA like that. You know what I mean? I mean, some people do, and I'm very⁠—you know, yay for those people, but it's realistic to not have that as a goal.

Mac:                Totally. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And yet having neutrality about the self is unrealistic. The Dalai Lama has it. Most people who meditate for a living, essentially, have neutrality about the self. But I do want to say that goal is⁠—I'm not neutral about myself. Do you know anyone who's neutral about themselves?

Mac: No. Absolutely not.

Jessica:            No. Having the ability to redirect from self-hatred to a neutral topic⁠—now, that's a good goal. That's doable.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            So you might start obsessively thinking about something you shouldn't have said or you shouldn't have did, and now you hate yourself because you said it or you did it. And then you can literally shift your attention and just say to yourself, "Peanut butter. Peanut butter is delicious. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter is delicious." I know that sounds silly.

Mac:                It doesn't.

Jessica:            That's how I've done it. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Sometimes you just shift to something that's authentically neutral because the obsessive fixation needs to live.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Give it something that you're not going to hurt yourself or others with.

Mac:                Yes. It needs to have a break.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mac:                There needs to be something to cut it off.

Jessica:            Yeah. Peanut butter is fine. It's neutral. It's kind of silly, but it's also kind of delicious. And lots of people have peanut allergies. Whatever. But it's neutral, right?

Mac:                Yes. Totally.

Jessica:            Your brain can kind of talk with it. And so I wanted to actually take neutrality off of your list, if I could, but add respect because in your birth chart, there's a lot of things I could say, but one of them is you've got this North Node/Venus conjunction. It's very close. And pointing yourself in this lifetime towards what you value⁠—that's it, you know?

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so identifying that you do value yourself and there's evidence based on your behavior, not just on your theories⁠—right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's really about recognizing that you do value being right with yourself. And sometimes being right with yourself means you're sad, and sometimes it means you're happy, and sometimes it means you're depressed, and sometimes it means⁠—I love marshmallows, so I was going to say you eat a bag of marshmallows. I don't know if that's your thing, but I really like a marshmallow. And sometimes it means you don't. It doesn't have to mean a singular thing for the course of your life.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And recognizing that you're on a journey with what it means to value yourself and with your impulses and with your conditions⁠—you might have a great week, and then this stuff doesn't come up so much, and then you have a bad thing happen, and it gets reactivated. Feeling bad when things are bad is healthy. Feeling your feelings when you're feeling them is a form of self-love even if those feelings are fucking grief and rage and insecurity and all the things. It's actually okay to feel bad.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so I wanted to really assert that for you because I see that when you start to feel bad, the narrative of, "Okay. Well, if I feel bad, I don't love myself. If I feel bad, there's something wrong in that journey"⁠—and I will say, if you touch a stove and it's hot and it burns your hand and that hurts, you're on the right track. Not feeling pain is not a sign of being good unless, of course, everything around you is perfect and you can't feel it. Then you're like, "Okay. So there's a disconnect here." And that's important information. And also, if that happens, it doesn't mean you don't love yourself.

Mac:                Yeah. I think that is honestly it because any time I felt like I was getting closer to what I perceive to be self-love, I would have a bad time. Whether or not it was related to my mental health, my physical health, any of the above, it would make me feel like⁠—I was like "Oh. Well, no, this isn't"⁠—

Jessica:            Right.

Mac:                "Guess it's not meant to be."

Jessica:            Right. Right. And it makes sense because, again, there's no word for not sinning. I think there might be something valuable for you of you coming up with a word for it. For me, I would say being in alignment is like the antithesis of the concept of sin, which is, I would assume, being out of alignment. I don't really know if that's what it is, but that's my framework, right?

Mac:                It's the vibe. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's the vibe, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so maybe there's a word that you can come up with for yourself that speaks to, "I am on track with my motivations and my efforts." And that doesn't mean⁠—and that's not about self-love with a halo on it or whatever. It's something to acknowledge, "I'm not doing something wrong. I'm just feeling challenging feelings."

Mac:                Yeah. I mean, I like the idea of alignment⁠—I mean, I know it can be used in⁠—I don't know⁠—some different ways, but in alignment with what I value because that's something over the last few years. That part of getting in touch with, "What do I really value?" has been huge for me because, before, I just was told what I value. And I've been finding out what I actually value, which is completely different from what I was told I value.

Jessica:            Yeah. Well⁠—and this brings me to the second of the three things that I want to say to you, which is you've got this beautiful Moon/Jupiter opposition. You're big on loving. The people who are beloved by you⁠—they fucking know it. You treat them spectacular. You are just like a walking, talking "Let me bake you a birthday cake" person. Right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, you're really, really good at showing people how you love them. Yeah. And you do love big.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I mean, that's obviously awesome, but part of what I see with people who have this aspect and this nature is that as bright as the light is, as deep as the shadow. Right? And Jupiter in Sagittarius, of which⁠—you have a bunch of Sagittarius in your chart⁠—tends to be like, "Well, if it isn't spectacular and sunny and loving and bright, then it's tragedy and endless and bad." Right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so I can understand why you have this idea of this spontaneous, straight-out-the-gate "yes" feeling that comes up for you when you love others⁠—you don't have towards yourself most of the time.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So, therefore, your Moon/Jupiter opposition, which is not your Saturn⁠—it's a different part⁠—says, "Oh. Oh, I don't love. This isn't love," because you're used to this thunderbolt of light. And this is why a lot of people with this placement end up with depression.

Mac:                That's interesting.

Jessica:            Yeah. And it's not what you see in the books. It is my theory. It is borne out through my practice. I double down on it. But I will say, for you, because you are Saturnian by nature, it'd be interesting if you did some sort of a project⁠—you could do it with your shrink; you could do it with your dear diary⁠—where you track, "What are the behaviors of love? What are the traits of love? What are the betraying the fact that I cares of love?"⁠—not just the bright, sunny parts that the Moon/Jupiter opposition loves, that spontaneous fire that comes, because sometimes you'll have that about yourself, but most people with Moon in the twelfth house are not⁠—that's not the thing is what I'm⁠—you know what I'm saying. It's not the thing.

Mac:                I do.

Jessica:            And that doesn't mean not love. It just means different love, different expressions of love. And that brings me to the third thing I want to tell you, which is you are going through⁠—and you have been for the past year⁠—a Pluto conjunction to the Midheaven. It's a once-in-a-lifetime event. It will be active until December 5th, 2025, so a year from now, okay?

Mac:                Okay.

Jessica:            And it's a really transformational transit. And this transit can coincide with a lot of profound and deep transformations around how you orient your life, around your very roots, because keep in mind a Pluto conjunction to the Midheaven is a Pluto opposition to your IC, and your IC is your childhood memories. It's like the deepest roots of the birth chart come out of the fourth-house cusp, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so this conversation that we're having is in kind of the halfway point, almost to the day, of this transit. And you've been really struggling, I imagine, in the last year with you behaving in ways that reflect your childhood shit and you struggling to break free and then not fully breaking free, right? So the pendulum swinging and swinging.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Mac:                Totally. Totally, totally.

Jessica:            It would be no other way. So maybe you could have started off at a different point, but you going through this transit has to be this, right?

Mac:                Wow.

Jessica:            So this struggle is not evidence of failure. The struggle is not evidence of a lack of self-love. The struggle is evidence of engagement.

Mac:                Wow.

Jessica:            And this is something I can't say enough about⁠—is that struggle is cool. Struggle's cool, man. You know what I mean?

Mac:                It's great. I love that.

Jessica:            I know. But it's like this is probably the Scorpio and Capricorn alliance we have, is that it's like the depth of struggle is actually⁠—it means that you're engaged and you're trying because you could zone out. You know you could fall back on your old shit.

Mac:                I have.

Jessica:            I'm sure.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            Yes.

Mac:                Totally. Yeah.

Jessica:            But choosing to continue to try is an act of self-love, and it's also an act of defiance from the ways that you were raised that were harmful to you.

Mac:                It feels defiant.

Jessica:            It is. It is.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And it's not going to get less defiant now that we're going through this⁠—up until February 23rd⁠—Mars opposition to your Midheaven. So Mars is hanging out at your IC and in your fourth house, right? It's going to pop back into your third house. It's going to kind of go back and forth here.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And so get ready to get mad.

Mac:                Oh no.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Mad.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Get mad. Be irritated. Notice the ways in which you abandon your body. Notice the ways in which you experience your body. Notice your anger because anger and entitlement⁠—I mean, from what I understand of Christianity⁠—is not well embraced. It's like you're supposed to turn the other cheek, right?

Mac:                That's what they say.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, yes. It's what they say, though.

Mac:                Not really what they do.

Jessica:            Not so much.

Mac:                But yes. Correct.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Mac:                That is what we are told. Correct.

Jessica:            Right. Right. And so finding your boundaries, finding your anger, experiencing emotions that are hard for everyone, regardless of our background, to experience, is hard. And yeah, giddyap. Here we are. This is what's going on for you right now. And again, the struggle, the returning to self, the wanting to find a way to be more gentle and kind to yourself, wanting to find a greater sense of healthiness and to accept yourself more⁠—these are all active evidences of self-love. And nobody has evidence of self-love 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I'm sorry. Nobody does. And it's returning to it that does the job over time.

                        When you find yourself being really, really mean to yourself⁠, I want to speak to your Saturn square to the Sun part and say treat yourself with respect. That part of you really likes structure. So treating someone with respect is a structure that that part can tap into, right?

Mac:                Yeah. Saturn can get with that.

Jessica:            Yeah. Exactly. So let's do that, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Because I would say treating oneself or others with respect is an act of love. It's not a mushy-gushy act of love, but it is an act of love.

Mac:                Totally. Yep.

Jessica:            And so I want to acknowledge this is not an easy time for you. If you were coming to me and saying, "Oh, I'm super chill. Everything's great," I would be really concerned because I'd have to assume that you were disassociated at a really extreme extent.

Mac:                Yeah. No, I feel like I have been in it probably the most that I've been in a long time.

Jessica:            And that's right on time. It's as you're meant to. Whether it's easy or it's hard doesn't actually⁠—I mean, it means a lot. It means a lot to our experience. But in the big picture and in the journey of trying to identify, "Do I love myself? Do I love myself enough?"⁠—whether it's hard or easy doesn't mean anything, really. It's whether or not you're treating yourself with kindness. And if you can't accept yourself, are you being respectful in your conduct towards yourself? Because you're not going to be able to accept yourself all the time. That's realistic, right?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But you can be aware when you've been mean to yourself or disrespectful to yourself and say to yourself, "Hey, self. Hey. Sorry. Didn't mean it." You know what I mean? Or, "I meant it, but I didn't mean to mean it." You know?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            You can make those adaptations.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And you're going to continue to feel bad sometimes, but⁠—I don't know. I don't want to oversell it, but I feel like this just kind of unlocked something for you.

Mac:                It did. It absolutely did.

Jessica:            And I want to say that this is one of the really cool parts of having a Moon/Jupiter opposition, is every once in a while, something happens and it's just like⁠ on the games of Chutes and Ladders, you just had an amazing chute, and you just went down a whole level or up a whole level. And it's just like something really big shifted inside of you. And you are really capable of that. And it is such a beautiful thing. And when you don't do that and you don't experience that, it's not a bad thing, even though it doesn't feel as good, right?

Mac:                Yeah. Totally.

Jessica:            So I want to, again, keep on making space for Saturn even though it's easier to keep on Jupiter, and we're having kind of a really cool Jupiter moment right now where you're making a big leap of⁠—a huge shift is occurring inside of you; I can see it. And you'll return to your Saturn and your Pluto and your everything else.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that doesn't mean that things haven't shifted, because I really⁠—I think they have, which is super cool.

Mac:                I think so, too.

Jessica:            Yeah. And again, it's like I keep on wanting to say to you this "and" because I just hear this voice that comes up in you. It's just like, "Oh, things are good? Things are good?" It's like a superstitious part. So I don't know if it's connected to OCD or not, but⁠—

Mac:                Oh yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—it's a superstitious part. And it's just like, "Oh, you're starting to feel good?" I can already hear it kind of ramping up to be like, "Let me show you why it's not true."

Mac:                Correct. Yeah. That's constant.

Jessica:            It looks like it. And so I want to say I'm not a mental health professional. I don't know⁠—I mean, I know as much as any person who has a TikTok account about OCD, but I don't know anything more. You know what I mean?

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So I don't know about that. But what I do know is that⁠—I can't speak to the mental health component, but what I can say is that some of that is just a habit. And it's a deep habit. It's hard for you to pull apart which part of this is me and which part of this is habit. At this stage, you cannot. And you're pre-Christ year, so there's still lots of time. But it is a habit.

Mac:                Yes.

Jessica:            And so, as you can hear⁠—it's kind of like one of those cartoon characters winding up its legs before it goes running. That's kind of how it shows up⁠—in a serious way, but it has a big wind-up. You can see it.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            It's not like a secret surprise.

Mac:                Correct.

Jessica:            To start facing that part, to be like, "Oh, I can see that you're getting ready to fucking say something to me. And I just want to acknowledge that you can say what you need to say, and also, I deserve to exist also," or just to acknowledge, "I see you. You are a part of me. You are not all of me. You are a part of me." Keep on externalizing, not as a way to completely reject it but to understand that that dominant voice is actually not you. If that dominant voice was you, you would never have gone to therapy. You would never have contacted me for a reading because that dominant voice doesn't want you to do any of those things. So it's not you.

                        That part of you wants more than anything else for you to give up. That's its primary goal. Sit down. Shut up. Take it. And sometimes, when you grieve, when you're really in the loss and the pain of that, it is your true, authentic feelings. And sometimes it's you kind of giving up. It's kind of like you giving in to your dad and being like, "No, I really like this labor. This isn't bad for me. This is fine. I'm okay. Everything's fine."

                        So this is that interjected perpetrator cycle where there's a part of you that's like, "Okay. I can feel that part of me winding up, so I'm just going to give it what it wants. I'm not going to fight it. I'm not going to make it worse. I'm not going to drag it out." And my advice is to, again, bring awareness to it happening when it happens, if you can, and to say, "I'm actually going to make a different choice." You may even take a moment to visualize yourself as a teenager, miserable, working manual labor, and saying to your dad, "I'm going to go do something else," and then putting down your tools and walking somewhere teenage you would have liked to have been. Just visualize it going well. Just visualize it going well because that's essentially what's happening, right, is you're just staying on the land, doing the labor instead of saying, "I'm going to risk the highway, see what's on the fucking highway."

                        It's not magic. It's not perfect. But it's a practice that will bring you in the right direction.

Mac:                Yeah. Wow.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Mac:                That's amazing.

Jessica:            Yay. And you like your therapist, right? You can bring this stuff to your shrink?

Mac:                Oh, totally.

Jessica:            Wonderful.

Mac:                I actually happened to have therapy this morning, and I told her, and she was so excited.

Jessica:            Yay. Okay. Great. That's so exciting. Okay. Great.

Mac:                Yeah. She's great.

Jessica:            So you can work with her on all of this and kind of develop, maybe, some language around it to kind of⁠—you do well with shortcut language, right?

Mac:                Yeah. Yep. Totally.

Jessica:            Because otherwise you get really wordy. So get a little shortcut language going. And I don't mean to suggest that the path in front of you is easy or short. I just mean I see you choosing the path, and that is the path.

Mac:                I also see that. I see what you're talking about, if that makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, it does.

Mac:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Oh, my pleasure. Look at you. You did it, man. Oh my God. I'm so happy. We did it. This was great. This is exactly what needed to happen.

Mac:                Yeah. Thank you.

Jessica:            Oh my God. It's my pleasure. It's totally my pleasure. I'm so happy we did this.

Mac:                Me too, Jessica. Thank you. Thank you. I cannot thank you enough. I really can't. I'm sorry. I just⁠—

Jessica:            No.

Mac:                You know, it's just a long time of hearing⁠—it's good to have hope that there⁠—because I really felt like there wasn't.

Jessica:            Yeah. Oh, there is, and also, eh, hope⁠—what is hope? And also⁠—do you know what I mean? I want to say both of those things.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            There is hope, and also, what is hope?

Mac:                1,000 percent.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Mac:                Totally.

Jessica:            I feel like⁠—I'm not a person who experiences a great deal of hope, but I'm determined.

Mac:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I think there's so much⁠—

Mac:                I think that's just as good.

Jessica:            That's just as good. That's just as good.

Mac:                Just as good.

Jessica:            It's like determination is the action of hope. Hope is a feeling.

Mac:                Totally. Totally.

Jessica:            Whether it's Saturnian or Scorpio or whatever, it doesn't matter what it is. It is really⁠—I don't know. There's so much content out there being like, "You're supposed to feel a certain way about yourself. You're supposed to talk a certain way." And some of it's really helpful, but then there's a point where it's like, well, if everyone's supposed to see a blue light and you're not seeing a blue light, does it mean you're not meditating right? It's just like we get goal-oriented about something like self-love, and then you're focused on the goal and not on the love.

Mac:                Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's where neurodivergency comes in, too, because we're not all wired the same way.

Jessica:            Yes.

Mac:                We only know just a tiny little bit.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah.

Mac:                And there's, like, this much out there.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. Modern science doesn't understand a goddamn thing about the human brain, a thing about the human brain. We really don't know⁠—I feel like we should talk about this way more than we do. We don't understand the brain.

Mac:                No, we don't.

Jessica:            We don't. And then we attribute so many things to the brain which may be actually just trauma. They may actually be something else, or we may be just putting leeches on wounds to suck them out in our own way. You know what I mean, like how they used to do that to⁠—

Mac:                Bloodletting?

Jessica:            Bloodletting. That's what it's called. We're essentially bloodletting brains. We don't know what we're doing, and⁠—

Mac:                We're just like, "It works."

Jessica:            We think it works, and it doesn't. It doesn't work. And so I think⁠—

Mac:                No.

Jessica:            I think there's just⁠—there's a lot of room to experience hope or not, love or not. None of it really⁠—it really matters, and also, as long as you're kind of trying, it doesn't really matter.

Mac:                Does any of this really matter?

Jessica:            I mean, I don't know. I genuinely don't know, and also, yes, it does. It's both. It's both.

Mac:                It totally does.

Jessica:            We have an "and also" policy, right? And also, self-love⁠—eh, and also, self-love⁠—it's both. It's both. Yeah.

Mac:                Oh man.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm so glad we did this, and I'm really excited for whatever comes next for you.

Mac:                Thank you.