Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Guest:              Oh, thank you so much, Jessica. I'm so excited to be here. So I'm just going to read to you what I wrote you. "I am a 46-year-old Queer Black fat person living in San Francisco. In the past few years, I've found a really good group of people with whom I feel supported and loved. I am someone who hasn't had a long-term adult romantic relationship. In addition, I am an only child, and both of my parents are deceased. Finding this community has been life-changing, and I finally feel at home with chosen family.

                        "With Trump returning to office, my Queer and Trans family is scared. My community is made up of teachers and therapists and writers. We don't have a ton of money, but we are extremely fortunate enough to be in a financial place where we are able to consider leaving the country. As we have begun to seriously consider our choices, I am realizing that I feel very confused if this is the right choice for me. I worry about the elders in my family of origin that I will be leaving. I feel scared at creating a new life somewhere I've never been. I question if it is smart or selfish to leave when so many others can't.

                        "The thought of my chosen family separating physically to keep safe is breaking my heart, and I feel myself wondering if I need to challenge myself out of my comfort zone and try living in a new country. I know, no matter what, we will still care for each other and support each other through what's to come. But I feel like I just found a home with these people, and I don't really know if the best choice for me is going back to being alone."

Jessica:            And this is why I answered your long question. Yeah. There are so many layers to this. And I'm going to share your birth information before I forget to. You were born May 6th, 1978, Englewood, New Jersey, 9:53 p.m.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So, first of all, I just have to acknowledge the fear and the realness and the pre-grieving that I think you're kind of sharing that a lot of us are experiencing. I just want to acknowledge it, and I'm going to zip, zip, zip as I do, but I want to hold a place for it here in this conversation. So there's parts of your question, right? There's lots of parts.

                        You mentioned love and partnership, so I wrote that part down because I think we need to come back to it. But then there's new place, new country. And how many people are in this group or in this community?

Guest:              I would say the larger community is four people, but I'm really talking about two adults and one kid who are planning on moving out of the United States.

Jessica:            And are those two adults a couple?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And you have a platonic relationship with them?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And do you know where they're thinking about moving to?

Guest:              No. They are still⁠—what I will say is, since I sent this question to you, I have done a lot of research, and I'm realizing how incredibly hard it is to leave the United States.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes.

Guest:              I'm also recognizing that my age and my health status also make it a lot more difficult than I knew. And so I think they're going through something similar, and I guess that's part of the question, too. If I do leave, I'm not exactly sure I'll be able to go to the same place that they go.

Jessica:            That's intense. And so you don't have a sense, necessarily, of where they're thinking?

Guest:              I don't. I don't. It seems like it changes. Yeah.

Jessica:            I think a lot of people are going through that. Yeah. And I will say it is exceptionally expensive, even if you do it cheaply.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            If you have any kind of preexisting medical condition and you're looking to live in a place with socialized medicine, it becomes very challenging. And most places have socialized medicine. So there's that. And then there's a massive, dramatic influx of Americans looking to leave. And so those are all very real things. Another very real thing is that I don't know that there is a place that is untouched by fascism. If we are on the brink of a world war, as the astrology points to⁠ and now you're hearing people in politics and in the media talk about openly, then where in the world is it safer than any other place?

                        Now, I actually think there are answers to those questions. I don't think it's like a "We're all fucked, and therefore, you might as well stay." That's not what I'm suggesting, but I want to acknowledge the pieces here. And then I want to ask a couple orienting questions. You have a passport, correct?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. I mean, I know I've said it before on the podcast, but I just feel like everyone who can should have a passport. It should always be updated. It should be close at hand. The passport is a very important thing, and I think a lot of Americans don't have them. But good on you. So I want to ask you, what you do for a living⁠—can you do it from abroad?

Guest:              Yes. I am a psychotherapist, and I work virtually.

Jessica:            Great.

Guest:              So I can work remotely.

Jessica:            Great. So you could theoretically sublease your place and go live somewhere for three months or six months and check that place out if you wanted to?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              I should also say that I'm not looking to leave by inauguration.

Jessica:            Right.

Guest:              I'm really aware that this is a process. And if I am able to do it and decide I want to do it, it will take a long time and, like you said, a lot of money.

Jessica:            Yeah. Time and money. Yeah. Even if you get rid of all your stuff and you just pack a suitcase, it still costs a lot of money. But if you want to bring anything with you anywhere, it's wild. It's wild how much money it can cost. This community, and in particular the family, the one kid and the two adults⁠—they want you to come with if you can; is that correct?

Guest:              What I would say is that when we knew Trump was running to be president, we did a lot of talking⁠—

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              ⁠—about moving together. We haven't done much talking about it since he has been elected. And in some ways, this couple⁠—they both identify as Trans. They have a kid. There's a part of me that's wanting to respect their process and their strong need for safety. And I have been feeling like I need to understand, with or without them, do I feel like this is something I could do? Would I do it even if they weren't going somewhere?

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Guest:              Would I do it if it were other people in my life who were going somewhere? I know that I wouldn't want to move out of the United States by myself.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. It's very isolating to move countries.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's very isolating. Even if you move with besties, it is isolating because not only do you not know the culture and you don't have any kind of history there, you're never going to run into anyone who knew somebody who once knew somebody who you knew or who worked at the place that you worked at. It is isolating even in this world where the internet can kind of keep you chatting with your bestie from down the block every day wherever you are in the world. It's still⁠—it is isolating. And I have heard you say that you are concerned about isolation, right?

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Whether you stay or you go.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So I keep on hearing Costa Rica. Is that one of the places that's on your list?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Is that top of the list?

Guest:              For me, yes. Again, I have not talked with my family.

Jessica:            Right.

Guest:              The other thing, Jessica, is that I am not a traveler. I've been to France and Switzerland when I was younger with my parents, but it's not a way that I vibe. I don't travel very much.

Jessica:            Right. Okay.

Guest:              So yeah.

Jessica:            You've got Saturn in your eighth house, but it's hugging that ninth-house cusp, which⁠—that makes sense. Going and just being like, "I'm just going to get on a plane and stay in a place and explore"⁠—yeah, that's not⁠—it's like it brings up your rigidity, right? It brings up your fixedness.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So that's fair. But we're not talking about traveling per se. We're talking about relocation. So we'll get there in a moment. We'll get there in a moment. And I just want to ask, is Costa Rica in your head because it's warm and beachy and all those things? Is weather an issue of Costa Rica?

Guest:              No. It basically seems like it would be easy compared to some other places.

Jessica:            Yeah. Easy⁠—yeah.

Guest:              To be more specific, easy to become⁠—to live there, to go there.

Jessica:            There's lots of Americans there. Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's an easy place for Americans to live. It's interesting. Costa Rica doesn't have a military, which is a really interesting thing. It's like, on the one hand, fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. And on the other hand, if it is a world war and there isn't a military, is that vulnerable? And then, also⁠—I mean, again, you're talking to a triple Capricorn, so doomsday thinking is my forte. But also, in the climate crisis, is a tropical paradise a good place to lay down roots? How much do you know about those two components in addition⁠—I'm assuming you do know about Queerness and racial stuff there. You've done research on those two things?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Okay. Now⁠—

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Now I'm learning more about you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So you have not done much research on these things.

Guest:              No. I am really at the beginning process. I've been very frozen and just kind of wondering if I should even consider this.

Jessica:            Okay. So that's where we'll begin. Okay. That's where we'll begin.

Guest:              Yeah. I do have the experience of maybe finding a place that will allow United States residents in, but then cross-referencing that with places that are good for Queer folks or good or people of color, and it's getting really overwhelming.

Jessica:            Yeah. It is overwhelming. And also, at a certain point, it becomes a quite short list.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It becomes a quite short list. Technically, an American can emigrate to Canada, let's say. I speak as a dual citizen. But it's exceptionally hard, and Trudo has just closed the border to new immigration, right? So a lot of this is going to happen. We should expect globally that a lot of this is going to happen. It's been happening for years. I think things are going to speed up in 2025 of nations closing their borders because of global instability. And that is relevant. So let's come back to all of these things.

                        I also want to say I want to support you in partnership. I don't want to encourage you in any way, shape, or form to move to a place where you're going to be the only Queer person or the only other Queer people are married and buried, so they're great friends, but they're not going to introduce you to their ex or the partner of the ex that just broke up with the ex, and now they're single and ready to go. You know? I want you to have access to love and sex.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And I want to say that really emphatically because I am looking at your birth chart, and I see that you can romanticize relationships really intensely and then, on the flip side, just be like, "Yeah, that part of me is not the part that I focus on. I focus on my other parts, and my other parts are so high maintenance it doesn't fucking matter. I'm going to focus on my other parts." And I say to you, okay, and also, don't move somewhere you can't date. Okay? I want to be emphatic about that.

                        So now let's come back to the more foundational question of stay or go, because that sounds like that's really the thing to focus on. And I also want to throw into the mix this because I think it's very important: if this is a real consideration for you, I'm going to give you the very basic foundational advice of, once you come up with a short list, you schedule flights. You go and you visit. And don't think of it as traveling. Think of it as testing waters, seeing what it feels like to work there.

                        So let's say you go for a week. Maybe you have half-time clients. You do them all digital, obviously. But you work there as well as you visit there, so you get a sense of what life would feel like, not just you go and chill on a beach and then be like, "Yeah, that was magical. I would live there," because that's not realistic, and also, that would trigger your rigidity more is actually vacationing. So I'm not actually recommending a vacation. I just want to put that in the mix. And if that makes you clam up completely, that little bit of advice, then we already have a little bit more of an answer because if you're not down to go visit, then where are you moving to?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So we're going to pull back, and you're dealing with this core question, so I'm really feeling what comes up for you around⁠—it's not just this topic; it's this kind of a thing where it's like there's too many options, and they're all very fucking important. It's like there is a part of you⁠—you're like a triangle. It's like a triangle, but the foundation is up in the air, and the tippy point is down in your center. So there's this pinpoint of presence inside of you, and then the rest of you is reaching out for an answer, and it actually has the impact of making your mind feel fuzzy and your⁠—it's not exactly anxiety, but it's like⁠—

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            ⁠—"Ahh." Yeah. I don't know how you describe this feeling that you're feeling, but it's⁠—you're trying really hard to stay focused, but you're only focusing out of this one teeny, tiny little pinprick inside of you. Everything else is outside of you. So how woo do you go, my therapist friend?

Guest:              Pretty woo. Pretty woo.

Jessica:            Good. Okay. So do you work with the auric field or your Glinda the Good Witch bubble around you, as you've heard me refer to it?

Guest:              Sometimes, yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So, before we get into your question, I want to have you take a moment⁠—so I want to acknowledge you already just did it. When I mentioned it, did you feel a slight shift energetically?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So that was when you barely fucking did it. I just want you to know that. That weird, kind of off feeling that you get⁠—always set your damn bubble. So I want to just encourage you to kind of visualize the edges of that bubble, whatever color⁠—I'm getting a nice pink, but you do whatever feels right. Just really kind of tap into⁠—okay, you're overthinking it. Hold on. You're doing a weird thing. Hold on. Okay. You need to exhale. Yeah.

Guest:              What's going on?

Jessica:            I'm watching energetically how you take care of yourself. And when you set the intention that you're going to take care of yourself⁠, so you're like, "Okay. I'm going to work on strengthening that field,"⁠ you shoot your energy further up and out to look down on yourself to see if you're doing it right while doing it.

Guest:              Yeah. That's right. That's true.

Jessica:            When I referenced the Glinda the Good Witch bubble, you did it again. Great. You just made it better. It's an emotional shift, not a mental shift. When your mind comes online, that weird shoop up into the sky thing happens, and then you lose connection to yourself. And that loss of connection feels like that "Ahh" feeling. I don't know how to word it because I don't feel like there's perfect words for that feeling. Does this make sense, what I'm saying?

Guest:              Makes a lot of sense.

Jessica:            Okay. Great.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So, as this conversation goes on, and in life if possible, every time you start to feel like, "Oh, I'm starting to feel that kind of confusion, overwhelm, like it's a little hard for me to focus," just think to yourself, "Glinda the Good Witch bubble." Don't do anything. Just remember what it looks like. Remember what you know of it. And you did it again, and it worked. Can you feel the shift, the subtle but important shift?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Boom. Excellent. Okay. Good. Okay. So, now that we've done that, I'm going to have you say your full name out loud.

Guest:              [redacted].

Jessica:            Okay. Tell me three reasons why you want to leave the country.

Guest:              Fear, love⁠—I know you're going to poke at this: I don't want to be wrong. I don't want to be wrong, kind of. There's a part of me that when I learned about the Holocaust in grade school, that said to myself, "If I ever see anything like that happening, I'm out."

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              "I'm going to leave." And again, like I said in my question, that feels like a very, very selfish place to be. But yeah. I think one of the reasons I'm wondering if I am supposed to consider leaving the country is because it will be wrong not to.

Jessica:            I'm going to call that self-preservation. And I don't think that's selfish. I also think, for whatever this is worth, that there is a difference between relocating your home base out of fear, love, and self-preservation than leaving, because if you're a therapist and you're going to continue to work with folks in the United States, then what you're doing is you're continuing to provide the same level of service, care, and investment in people here, people in the States in the struggle. Right? There is a difference between doing that and being like, "Yeah, I'm just leaving. I'm just going," right? Because just going means you're no longer engaged in the struggle for liberation; you're no longer engaged in the kind of work you do to support people in their own welfare, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I do think there is a difference. I do think there is a difference. And I don't think that everyone would agree with me on any of this, and that's part of the complexity here is that there's not going to be a right answer. And I should also acknowledge that you and I are close in age. I'm a little older than you. And half of my family are Holocaust survivors. When I was raised on the stories of what was happening, every week I heard those stories of what it was like in the camps. And I had the exact same reaction⁠—identical. I'd get the fuck out. If I saw the camps are coming, I'm out because it's terrifying to live through that.

                        So I have a similar trigger. So I want to just acknowledge I have the same damn trigger, and I had the same damn reaction as a child of, "I want to get out." So I want to just acknowledge that I don't have an objective reaction to that at all. And also, I want to ask you for the three things you would want from the place you would relocate to.

Guest:              Okay. I'm going to say this knowing that it might not be possible.

Jessica:      Sure.

Guest:        But safety, community⁠—I'm torn between love and groundedness.

Jessica:      Or just call it loving groundedness.

Guest:        Okay.

Jessica:            So those are great qualities. Let me drill down on that just a teeny bit more and just say give me three pragmatics. You're a Taurus. Give me three pragmatics. Does weather matter? Does⁠ English spoken as the primary language matter? That kind of shit.

Guest:              This feels like a really hard question to answer.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              I think I have been really in the fleeing place as opposed to, like, what do I want? I've been very much more in the fleeing place than, what can I get? But yes. I think I would love to be someplace where if the weather goes from cold to hot, that's fine, but if it's going to be mostly in one direction, I prefer hot than cold.

Jessica:            Real talk, 2024. Yes. Hot than cold. Yes. You're not trying to move to the North Pole or something.

Guest:              Totally. Totally.

Jessica:            You're not going to Alaska.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Yeah. Okay. Urban or rural?

Guest:              I'm open.

Jessica:            Okay. English important?

Guest:              So I am very not good at learning languages, so I think English is important. But I'm also⁠—I'm open to not knowing the language and learning it.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'm glad we're having this part of the conversation. So, straight out the gate, I want to say if you are fleeing⁠—if you're fleeing, if that's actually what it is⁠—then this practical stuff doesn't matter. This last question you're struggling with doesn't matter. But if you are relocating and fleeing⁠—right? If you're doing both, so if you're not just like, "It's an emergency. I need to get out. My hair is on fire. I need to put my hair out"⁠—right? Because actually, we're not there. Now, by the time we're there, maybe you can't get out. That's real. I'm not going to lie, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But if you're not there yet, then, for instance, your willingness to live in a place where people don't speak English⁠—I'm worried for you because that means that you will be isolated. Have you ever been in a place where no one speaks the language that you speak?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It's isolating.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It's intensely isolating. And I'm guessing when you were in that situation, you weren't close to 50. You're in your mid-40s now, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So it gets a lot harder as an older person. Being an older person moving can be more isolating, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So I want to just disavow you of this idea that⁠—unless you're fleeing, unless you're literally like, "My hair is on fire. I'm running out of the country," move to a place where people speak English, okay? Let me just say that, okay? This feels very important. What I want to kind of ground you into is, if you feel in your heart of hearts and you believe you need to get the fuck out⁠—again, hair on fire is what I'm going to nickname that as⁠—then there's a lot of things you can compromise on because the point is getting out, and then you can navigate from there.

                        And listen. I see that your fear says that that's the case, but your mind actually doesn't agree. Your mind is saying, "Well, I can take my time and figure it out," which means your hair is not on fire.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay? So, if instead it's, "I feel that I need to flee, and I want to do it in time, and I do believe I have some time"⁠—which is more of what I think you're at. Does that feel right?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Then figuring out what you're moving to⁠—because you put on your list that you want to move out of love and self-preservation. So that's not just about fear. That's about loving yourself, loving community, being able to be of service to others. And if you actually want to create loving, grounded connection, community, and have safety for yourself and provide safety for others⁠—if you want all those things, then you have to be intentional about where you're going.

                        When your hair is on fire is not the time to be intentional about where you're running. I mean, hopefully you don't run off a cliff, but otherwise, the question is can you start to think, in more pragmatic ways, places where English is⁠—at least half the people speak it should be a priority. Places where you have to navigate anti-Blackness and you⁠—luckily, social media exists and you can get lots of firsthand accounts these days. Thank goodness for all that⁠—and homophobia. These are very important things, and then also places that as an American you can go.

                        Now, I feel like I should say⁠—because I don't know how far you've gotten⁠—is that when⁠—as an American, from my understanding, when you move to another country, you have to continue to pay taxes.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's some bullshit. The United States is one of two countries in the world that demands that you pay your taxes even if you don't live there. So you have to pay taxes in both countries, unless you're a digital nomad. And there are nations that allow for that.

Guest:              Yeah. Can I take time out?

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. Time-out me.

Guest:              I feel like⁠ the feeling⁠—I'm just going to be honest. The feeling is like I've ruined this reading by maybe misrepresenting where I was in the process⁠—

Jessica:            Interesting.

Guest:              ⁠—of looking.

Jessica:            Say more.

Guest:              I guess I'm not sure. If this was a private reading, I'd be like, "Cool." But I'm like, oh, you picked this question maybe because you thought there was going to be some real serious questions about move⁠—

Jessica:            No.

Guest:              Okay. Okay.

Jessica:            I picked this question personally just because I did, and that's how I do things, a little bit out of intuition. But I also picked this question because, girl, you are not alone in this question. You are not alone in this question, and I think most people haven't done a whole lot of research. And Americans⁠—regardless of how informed you are, being an American means having this sense of exceptionalism, that you're in the greatest country, and navigating to other countries shouldn't be that hard because you're an American, you know, traveling as an American. It's not that hard, basically.

                        I didn't have an expectation that you had done a lot of research or that you hadn't done a lot of research. I'm just asking these questions to figure out where you're at with it, but⁠—

Guest:              Got it.

Jessica:            Yeah. So don't even worry about that. But I do want this to be helpful. So, if I'm taking the conversation in a direction that you're not feeling, just let me know, and we'll adapt.

Guest:              Okay. I think what I want to understand⁠—and I'm not sure if this is a direction the reading can go in⁠—

Jessica:            Sure.

Guest:              ⁠—is I feel like this idea of fleeing⁠—

Jessica:            Yes.

Guest:              ⁠—it feels very visceral and maybe young. And I don't know how to talk to that part of me. And so, when I wonder if I should go, it feels very much⁠—yeah, a visceral feeling that I'm responding to. And I don't know what to do with that feeling.

Jessica:            I got it. Okay. That's a great clarity to have. So, before I start to unpack this with you, I want to acknowledge that I have that same feeling of terror, and it comes from a young part. I think a lot of people do. And I want to just acknowledge that. Even though it's completely personal to you, I don't think it's exclusive to you. I think terror and the urge to flight or fight⁠—we're talking about Pluto. We're talking about root chakra. We're talking about base animal brain shit. It's always young. It's always a young part. And that doesn't mean adult you doesn't need to heed it, and it doesn't mean it's immature. So I just want to acknowledge all of these things.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            That said, in your birth chart, you've got a Pluto/Mercury opposition. What does that mean? That means that your thinking tends to be catastrophic, right?

Guest:              (laughs)

Jessica:            You're just like⁠—you're really good at being like, "Well, yeah, the house could burn. But also, the house could burn really slowly, and I wouldn't know until I'm already cooking. And then there's nowhere to go, and my hair is on fire." You know what I mean? That is your nature.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And does that come from early developmental trauma and inherited conditions? Fuck yeah. And there's a lot of⁠—you're a therapist, so you know there are a lot of things that you can do to explore that and unpack that. And that's not what we're going to do right now, but instead to acknowledge that you have in your nature the likelihood and the ability to go to worst-case scenarios and then be like, "Run. Flee. Jump," or, "Hide. Shrink"⁠—you know, flight or fight.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And also, you have had a lifetime⁠—you're in your mid-40s. You've had a lifetime to think about, "What would I do if the things that I actually think are about to happen would happen?" And you have come up with ideas, and some of these ideas are from five-year-old you, and some of these ideas are from 15-year-old you, and some of these ideas are from grown-ass you. And it's hard to parse them apart because they're connected to your survival mechanisms, which are kind of by definition young. They come from a young part.

                        So I want to just say that we're not going to make this tidy, because that's an unrealistic goal, right?

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            And then maybe one day, when you're perfectly safe and everybody's holding hands, then you can reflect back on these feelings and parse them apart. But when you're actively in the trigger is not the time to gain calm and clarity about the trigger.

Guest:              That makes a lot of sense.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And so there are multiple things happening here. One thing is there's very real threat, and you are amongst tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, who are feeling and thinking the same way you are. And I don't know if your clients are coming in with similar ideas. Yes. Okay.

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Your clients are coming in with similar ideas. Your friends have similar ideas. You open up social media, and you hear people that have similar ideas. So you're not alone. You're not making this up. This is not like your inner child fucking your life and catastrophizing. And also, you have a nature where you do catastrophize. And there is this part of you that will jump to conclusions and fixes out of a trauma response, and that is one of the reasons why you're like, "Yeah, I don't have to live in a place with English," even though you know you don't learn languages well and you don't want to be isolated, right?

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Because that Mercury in Aries that you have is just like, "I just need to fix the problem. Let's just fix the problem." But that's like⁠—it's like having your hair on fire and jumping into a lake and not being a strong swimmer. It's like you've just changed your problems now, right? So we don't want to change your problems, ideally; we want to solve your problems. But first, it's important to accept that there is real danger.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            And you are not currently in danger. That's an important distinction because I don't know about you, but I mean, I feel like⁠—you're from Jersey, so you probably have⁠—I don't know. Maybe it's not the same here you're from, but I've jaywalked a lot in my life.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You've jaywalked? Okay. I feel like it's an East Coast thing. We jaywalk.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So there is a meaningful difference between jaywalking casually, seeing a car way down the way fucking speeding⁠, but you know, I mean, they would have to really speed to hit you, so you can continue to be cocky and cross the street where you're not supposed to, versus you're jaywalking and there is a car that is coming at you, and they're close. You know the difference, right? It's kind of like this is a risk you're more comfortable taking. In this situation that you and we are in, you are not even fucking jaywalking. You're just crossing the damn street. But there is a car, and it is big, and it is made of metal, and it is coming quickly. But it is not here. If you stood in the middle of the street for another couple months, you'd probably be okay.

                        You don't want to stand in the street forever, though, because the car is coming, and you can see it. And so it's okay to be scared of the car because in that situation, most people would run. You see the car; you're like, "Oh shit. Why would I wait for it to get really close? I'm going to just run across the rest of the street."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So I want to hold that really tightly for you because I think you're flip-flopping between, "I gotta run. I gotta run," and validating the impulse to leave.

Guest:              Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And this is separate from the ethics of stay or go.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But you can't get to the ethics of stay or go from a terror-based place. And what I think you're doing and a lot of people are doing who would consider ethics, which⁠—may we all, but of course, we don't⁠—is being like, "Ahh, I don't know what's real. I don't know what's true. I'm in fear. So now I'm going to jump to the ethics and invalidate both perspectives from an ethical standpoint," right?

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And this is where intellectualism is our enemy because now you can substantiate anything from an ethical standpoint, in a way, right? Or you can shit on anything from an ethical standpoint. In order to determine the ethics, you first need to kind of get more balanced in the emotional response, which doesn't mean feeling good or safe. It means accepting the messiness of where you are, the reality of where you are. Does that make sense, the difference?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Excellent. So, as you ground me back into the question⁠—and I'm so glad you refocused us because now we're cooking with gas, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. So you've refocused me on the question, and the question really is, "How do I make the decision?" Is that what you said the question was?

Guest:              I think the question is, what do I do with this sense of needing to flee?

Jessica:            You live in San Francisco. Do you want to start over somewhere else? Not the fleeing part of you that's like, "Yes, take me out of the States," but do you feel like you're ready to live somewhere else? Do you want that for yourself?

Guest:              I love San Francisco. When I first visited here, I moved here within a month. I realized it felt like home more than anywhere I had ever been before. I have been wrestling for years about the affordability of San Francisco and the Bay Area. So, when you ask that question, I feel ready to live someplace more affordable.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              The fleeing part of me is like, "Fuck affordability. I just want to get out."

Jessica:            Right. Right.

Guest:              But yes. I have made peace with the fact that I probably can't stay in San Francisco.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Great. That's really good. And also, I want to just stay kind of grounded and centered around none of your answers need to be or even should be tidy.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            And this is what's fucking you up.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            You're like, "I don't have a clear answer. So, if I don't have a clear answer, that means I should figure out each and every piece of the puzzle before I can make a choice.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And the truth is⁠—man, you and me both. San Francisco⁠—love her like a person. What a special place. And not all relationships can stay the way they once were. Relationships can evolve. So, that said, in February of 2024, a transit you've been going through for many, many, many months⁠—maybe almost a year⁠—Saturn square Neptune, it'll be over February of 2025. And at that time, your ability to make decisions and not feel like an anxiety monster is going to get a lot stronger.

Guest:              Oh my gosh. Yay.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yay. But you are going through a Neptune opposition to the Midheaven that will be over in 2026, in spring of 2026. And that transit lets me know that if you are going to make a move⁠—and I really want to be clear that I think the motivation of fleeing is very real, but you are likely making a move informed by the feeling of fleeing because you're not going to leave your apartment and everything in it and run out the door. Am I correct about that? You're not doing that?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            No. You're not doing that. Okay. So I would encourage you to think of it as an exploration and not as a relocation. So, if you were to spend a year in Costa Rica living and working, what would you need to do to make that happen? How would you want to make that happen? If that's something that you wanted to do, what's stopping you from talking to your community about that plan? You know?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            If they're like, "Yeah, we thought about Costa Rica, but we kind of were like, "Eh, not that. We're thinking about this instead," is their "this" interesting to you? Is it possible for you? I want to encourage you to explore that, not to relocate. I don't think you should relocate because of the Neptune opposition to the Midheaven, which is a Neptune conjunction to the IC⁠—instead, to relocate for a period of time, to explore what that would feel like and what that would look like. Does that feel worse, better?

Guest:              No, it feels so much better when you say that.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. It's shifting your home base. It's creating an opportunity for you to get out of Dodge and let things develop here a little bit. It's creating an opportunity for you to explore what it would feel like to live⁠—I don't know. Greece? Is Greece also on your list? Is that why I keep seeing it?

Guest:              No. It's a thought. I haven't researched it.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I keep on getting lost in the upside-down triangle thing that I was referring to earlier. Sorry. Let me just pull it back in.

Guest:              Gosh. Are you doing Tarot cards?

Jessica:            I am. Bad or good?

Guest:              I love this. I just love all of it.

Jessica:            Oh, good. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Okay. Good. Well, then I'll tell you what I see. Okay. I want to just, as much as possible, really get to this root of your question, and I want to say this: it is a trauma response to want to flee. It's also smart. They can both be true at once. The trauma response, whether it's from your lived experience or your inherited experience of you can't trust the government⁠—when the government says they're going to come and knock on your door and fuck with you, believe them.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            That is going to give you a lot of trauma. That's going to have a ripple effect throughout your psyche and your life. And also, it's the truth. I mean, cars will hurt you when they drive into you. It's a trauma response if maybe you were once hit by a car, but also, it's still true that cars should be avoided at speeds, right? So this is one of those times where, yes, your trauma is being activated, and yes, there's a good reason for it. And that doesn't mean you should completely ignore it.

                        And this is really hard because how do you sort through the unevolved, unintegrated "My hair is burning; I have to jump into the lake" parts to get to the part where you're like, "Oh, okay. I don't have to go through what other people have gone through. I can actually learn from that. I can resource myself. I can see danger coming before it's knocking on my door, and that's an asset." Somebody who's never seen a car before might not know to run out of the way.

                        And so I want to pause, and I want to acknowledge a couple things. I don't have the answer. I might have the answer if I, too, wasn't in this world and just as scared as you. I might have more objectivity. And I want to acknowledge I can't have objectivity because⁠—fuck.

Guest:              You're here with me.

Jessica:            And fuck. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, the astrology of 2025⁠—I mean, I wish I had appropriate words. Tower card? Those are two words. Not excited is an understatement. I don't know what to say. You know what I mean? I mean, I'm freaked out. And I want to acknowledge that if you are not a person who wants to be isolated and you're not excited⁠—you're not like a "I love traveling and meeting new people and eating pizza in new places" and whatever, then that's not going to make you feel safe if you do that in an unstable world.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            So then we start to question, do you think about exploring being for, let's say, a year in another place with your community? Or if your community isn't leaving or they are leaving to a place that isn't as accessible to you or isn't your vibe, where can you go that gives you proximity to San Francisco Bay Area and the community you have but maybe is a little more accessible or feels a little more safe? But there's no escaping our global conditions.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And that doesn't mean that you are not entitled to and that you shouldn't seek to create as much safety and security and stability for yourself as you can. And I should say, because this is public⁠—we're having a public conversation, not just a private conversation⁠—I feel that for white, cis, straight people⁠—especially for Christian white, straight, cis people, people with inherited wealth⁠—I have a slightly different take on this about staying here and kind of rooting here and really committing to being the change that needs to happen and to putting one's body in the way of oppressive, racist, homophobic, ableist forces.

                        And I'm not saying that to you, because that's not your identity. I think it's important that I acknowledge that, though, because again, this is a public conversation. I don't think that there is one answer about what's right or wrong in terms of, should you stay in the U.S. or should you flee the U.S.? But I don't know that you owe the U.S. anything.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And also, you are a mental health person. You're supporting people. And it should be no surprise that I feel that supporting people in their wellness is a form of activism and resistance when it's done with that intention. And I can only make the assumption that that is how you do it.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. So you're not abandoning, even if you are fleeing. And I want to just, again, bring that back to that part of you that has the ethical quandary, "Should I stay or should I go?"

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Now, I want to just pause myself, and I want to just check in and see, am I answering your core questions? Is there anything that's coming up?

Guest:              Yeah. I think everything you're saying is helping that feeling of wanting to flee kind of take a seat, which is really nice. And as that's fading, I'm realizing that my question also is around this piece of feeling very alone my entire life and feeling like I have found some people⁠—I have a lot of good friends, but until I lived with these people, I didn't really let folks that deep in. And just by having to go through the beginning of COVID and 2020 with these people, I just feel so held and seen and safe.

Jessica:            Profound.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Let me just say you were born on a New Moon in Taurus, so you've got your Sun and Moon in Taurus, and Chiron's right there. And safety is a really big deal for you. Safety is a really, really, really big deal. And you're Venus ruled, plus you have Venus conjunct your Descendant. Keeping things surface is your specialty. You're very good at it because you're not that excited about letting people in enough to hurt your feelings. And so you entertain, and you serve, and you have lovely times with people. But they don't get to really know you through that.

                        And so I want to acknowledge this pattern that you've lived out of doing that, of making people feel good kind of at your own expense⁠—at your long-term expense, your very immediate short-term happiness⁠—it's a pattern that you've been breaking, and it's a pattern that you can continue to break. And it doesn't depend on these people.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It doesn't belong to these people. It's you continuing to break a pattern. So I want to acknowledge that. So the couple with the kid⁠—you live with them?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. So I want to also say⁠—I mean, I know Mercury is Retrograde, and we're right on the precipice of Mars Retrograde. But still, sit them down and say, "To flee or not to flee? Where to flee? These are the questions." And just get your favorite meal and maybe⁠—I don't know. I feel like pizza is everybody's favorite meal, so just get your whatever pizza and whatever everyone likes to drink. And just be like, "Let's have a conversation, and let's have it be messy. And let's not come up with any solutions, and let's not make any agreements. Let's just explore possibilities." That's all.

                        Have that conversation with them. I want to just say that separate from⁠—I know there's a larger question at play, but I want to give you that advice, okay? You, my  very Taurus friend, do not need to have the answer before you start the conversation. That's the pattern. That's the pattern you're trying to break.

Guest:              You're right. I want to know before I discuss.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, you do. And the discussion is to help facilitate knowing. So you're slipping into that old pattern of having to be like the perfect hostess for every interaction. Why? To what end? Fuck that. The reason why in 2020 you became close to these people is because you were messy, and they were messy, and no one fucked each other over. And people made mistakes, and you grew together.

Guest:              That's true.

Jessica:            That was it. Yeah. Don't slip back into your pattern out of fear. The only reason why you haven't had this conversation yet is because you're scared that they're having this conversation without you, and you don't know what to say, and you don't know what you think, and you don't know what to feel.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So that's okay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Just acknowledge it to them. Share it with them. And you may find any number of things, and none of those things are going to be conclusive. Mercury is Retrograde. None of this is meant to be conclusive. But also, it's a good practice with people to have exploratory conversations that are not conclusive. You have so many fixed placements in your chart. This is not your forte.

Guest:              (laughs)

Jessica:            Right? It's not your forte. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. You also have lots of mutable parts. And just because a person is fixed doesn't mean they can't adapt. It's just⁠—you're like, "Oh, I should go in with a plan."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            No. How's that going to help anything? Earnestly, I want to know, how's that going to help? Exploring what they're thinking, what⁠—you know. For all you know, you're both thinking the exact same things or radically different things. There's only one way to find out: talk.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Now, the other part is you have your North Node in Libra. What this means is that you've come here in this lifetime to figure out how to share yourself with others. And what you know⁠—I'm talking about on a soul level, not on a personality level⁠—is you've worked so hard to figure out who the fuck you are and to hold on to yourself that you have this fear that when you truly share of yourself with others, it will diminish your own authentic self because in previous incarnations, according to your chart, that is what happened.

Your work was to figure out who you were and to come into self-acceptance and self-embodiment. But actually, that's not your primary problem in this life. I'm going to reframe that⁠—your primary work, I'll say, is sharing that self with others, like truly sharing yourself. So, when we talk about can you share that you don't know the answer, but you have all these questions, and even the questions don't feel well formed, that's yourself. That's you. And that's coming out of clarity about what you feel⁠—not clarity about what it means or clarity about what to do, but you are clear about what you feel, right?

Guest:        Yeah.

Jessica:            You're clear about what you see in the signs and all the things. Can you share that messy clarity with others? When you do, it doesn't 100 percent of the time work because that will never be the case for any human because we are complicated trauma monsters. But⁠—real talk, right? But when you shared your trauma and all the things with this couple, this community, in the past, it's been fucking worth it.

Guest:              That's true.

Jessica:            And most of the time, when you've shared with others, like authentically shared with others in the past, it has been worth it. Some of the time, you've recognized, "Oh, I chose a narcissist because I didn't really want to be seen." So you have a pattern with narcissists, I'm guessing. Yeah? Yeah?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Well played. Well played. These people aren't narcissists, so it's safe. So now it's about, can you break your pattern of hiding yourself so that you might have the benefit of a relationship? Now, I want to say your North Node is conjunct your Midheaven, so good on you being a therapist. That's great work for you, fucking perfect work for you. Perfect work for you. It's not the only job possible, but it's like chef's kiss, really good use of your nature.

                        Being a therapist allows you to see that the way that you've had relationships historically is you've put yourself in that role of therapist. Now that you get paid to do it, hopefully you can see when you start to do it in your personal life, and you can be like, "Oh shit. Yeah. That's what I do for a living. That's not what I do for a loving." You know?

                        And so this is a practice. Nobody's good at their North Node. You can't be good at your North⁠—that's not fucking⁠—it's not realistic. It might look like from the outside that you're good at the North Node, but the soul's journey is the soul's labor. And the soul's labor is challenge. So just because it's hard doesn't mean you're not doing it.

All to say what stands in the way of you having the kinds of intimate relationships, whether they're romantic or platonic, that you want is your willingness to show up and be really honest about who you are and where you are. Your problem is not that you don't know how to be a good friend and you don't know how to be a good date. None of that shit's your problem. You're great at being a community member. None of that shit's your problem. It's that you do it like a hostess instead of like a person.

Guest:        Yeah.

Jessica:      What comes up with that?

Guest:              I'm reflecting on people who have told me that it feels like I'm hiding. And yeah, I think I do a fair amount of that.

Jessica:            Yeah. The worst thing somebody could say to you is that you're hiding, because you've got Mercury in Aries. And so, if somebody says you're hiding, you're like, "Fucking no, I'm not hiding," because it's actually not what you're doing. You're not hiding. That's a person misunderstanding.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            You're surviving. There's a part of you that believes the only way to survive is to get along. It's to take care of people, to make yourself seem like a self-cleaning oven. You don't have to maintain me; I maintain you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That's not hiding, right? That's something else. It's surviving, which is why when somebody tells you you're hiding, it doesn't ever change anything for you, because you're not hiding. Instead, what I want to kind of ground you into is that you have enough evidence to know that you are actually very capable of navigating conflict. You are very capable of identifying when a person is not a good person for you and extricating yourself. Now, do you enjoy it? No. Is it easy? No. Does it happen instantaneously and do you avoid all pain and discomfort? Obviously, no. But you're old enough now that you have had enough lived experience now that you know that you are capable. Yeah?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Okay. This is why I talk about the North Node post-40, because 30-something you⁠—you can look back and be like, "Oh, I learned from all those things," but 30-something you wouldn't necessarily be able to apply those lessons yet. Something shifts at 40, in your 40s. Some of this is habit, and some of this is willingness. They're all smooshy together⁠—habit, willingness, right? Are you willing to strive to break the habit, which means choosing to be uncomfortable and messy and vulnerable? Is intimacy worth it?

                        And you have to choose it over and over and over and over and over again. And it sucks, but it's the path. And it is your path. It's the path. It's your path. Choose it.

Guest:              Sounds hard. Okay.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. If it wasn't hard for you, you wouldn't have the North Node in Libra. But you also have Pluto in Libra, right? Of course it's fucking hard. But that's the move. So start small. Talk to the community that you love and trust and that you know loves and trusts you, too. That's really big, actually. But you have already done more of the work than you think you've done. Your reaction to how hard that sounds is very honest, and also, it tells me you have not integrated the changes you've already made. You haven't owned your own progress.

Guest:              Good point. Good point. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. You've already done this work.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            For somebody who's overwhelmed by this advice I've given you, you've already done it for years⁠—

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—almost always. For years. I mean, it hasn't transferred to love-life stuff, but that's okay⁠—it's a pandemic⁠—because a lot of the progress you've made has been over these last four, five years⁠, like real integrated progress. In a way, the world getting smaller helped you to focus.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Wherever you land, allowing yourself to cultivate relationships where you break through your pattern⁠—which doesn't mean you have no boundaries, and it doesn't mean that you're just vulnerable and open all the time. But it means, when you have evidence to suggest that, "Okay. I actually want to build a relationship with somebody," you watch your hostess habit. You understand that it's a trauma response as well as excellent social skills. It's both, right? We don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You can be a great host but just assume that everyone can get their own glass of water. You don't have to offer everything, not at the beginning, because you want to see if when you don't offer everything, do they meet you in the middle? It's worth exploring.

                        And I want to just pull everything back⁠—because we're coming close to our time⁠—to your central question, which is making decisions in this really scary time about where you go and how you go and if you go. But it's also really about listening to yourself, navigating risk and trauma, and making the best possible decisions in some really awful circumstances. And these awful circumstances may tip into earth-shatteringly horrible circumstances, and they may not.

                        I am not the one who's going to talk you off a cliff. I mean, if you wanted somebody to talk you off a cliff about these kinds of issues, you should have called someone else because you know I'm not the one who's going to talk you off a cliff. But these are really the things you're navigating. And nobody is good at these points of inquiry. How could anyone be good at these points of inquiry? Nobody is. Even if you had the kind of money that would allow you to pack up you and your community and put all of them in a safe plane and carry all their belongings in that safe plane to a new places that you could pay for and everything, it would still be all these trauma questions.

                        So give yourself more space to be messy so that you can navigate your trauma from your adult integrated parts at least some of the time because it's not realistic to do it all the time, but at least some of the time.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Now, all that said, I threw cards. Is it in your best interest to get the hell out of Dodge? Yeah. Obviously, it is. Obviously, right? It is. And that doesn't mean another country, necessarily, and it doesn't mean alone, and it doesn't mean jumping from a burning building into a lake. But it does mean, yeah, realistically, you are who you are, and your viewfinder is as it is, and the world is as it is, and there is a meaningful part of you that's like⁠—24 hours a day, it's on. "I gotta get out of there. I gotta get out of here. I gotta get out of here."

                        And some of that is trauma, obviously, for sure. And some of that is I see a car coming at me. And it's okay that they're both true, and it's okay that you want to get out of here. And also, to be honest, I don't know what else would get you to have an adventure other than trauma.

Guest:              It's so true. Oh my gosh.

Jessica:            You know? So maybe this is what you needed to push you to try something that you've really kind of thought about but put off, thought about and put off your whole life. Again, don't move. Don't leave San Francisco and move to a place. Try it out for a year, six months, two years, but nothing more than two years. I say a year is nice.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            It gives you lots of time to settle in and create your routines and your habits⁠—right, my Taurus friend⁠—and also to not feel like, "Oh, I have to make this work because I just left." You're just shifting up your home base. You're experimenting. You're exploring.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            If you can do it with community, that would be ideal for you. Yeah. And don't go to a place where no one speaks English.

Guest:              You're right.

Jessica:            Yeah. Don't be the only Gay person. Don't be the only Black⁠—these things are not⁠—this is not what you want for you. And it's okay to have those boundaries. In fact, it is healthy to be like, "These are the things I require of the place," and to explore, "Okay. Well, that really shrunk the list down," which is challenging in its own way. But it's less options, which means it's less choices, which is nice for you because⁠—

Guest:              Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah. Too many choices is breaking your brain.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah. Breaking my brain is right.

Jessica:            It's breaking your brain. Yeah. It's true. So yeah. I hope that helps. I know we chutes-and-laddered it, but hopefully we got to something that will give you something to work with.

Guest:              I feel like we did. Thank you so much, Jessica.

Jessica:            It is so my pleasure.