Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            So, Tara, welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Tara:                So I guess I'll just read my question. The question is, "Is repair possible when trust has been badly broken, and is it specifically possible for me? My oldest, closest friend of 20 years caused a huge rift in our community by causing harm. I've been so angry and betrayed that I've barely been able to touch my feelings of grief from the loss. I want to be able to be in community and to repair after conflict. I wonder, though, if that's possible for me. I have a lot of fixed energy in my chart, and with the Cancer/Leo combos, I don't know if I'm built for repair after serious conflict. Any insights into my capacity for repair and/or how to deal with the seemingly impenetrable feelings of anger and defense that come up for me would be really treasured."

Jessica:            Okay. So you were born July 19th, 1992, 8:27 a.m. in a city and province we're not naming, but trust it's Canada. Just spoiler alert before we actually get into it⁠—if you think that the reason why it's hard for you to forgive is because of the Leo/Cancer, I have got a lot of news for you. That doesn't even touch on it. You have so many other things that make it hard for you to forgive in your chart. So we'll get there, though. We'll get there. But I am a little on the fence, but I feel compelled to ask⁠—you say that this is a good friend of yours. How long were you friends with this person?

Tara:                For 20 years.

Jessica:            Oh shit, like an old friend.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Almost your whole life.

Tara:                Old friend.

Jessica:            And what pronouns should I use for them?

Tara:                She/her.

Jessica:            Okay. And the harm that she perpetrated⁠—was it against you?

Tara:                It wasn't. It was someone else who is in my community who's a friend, who I sort of honestly think of as a family member.

Jessica:            Okay. And is this something that your ex-friend admitted to? It's something that you know from⁠—like, you were there and you know it happened, or is it through hearsay?

Tara:                I know it happened. I talked to her about it. I essentially talk to her about everything. And she said, "You're right, and I did those things."

Jessica:            Okay.

Tara:                "And I need to work on stuff," essentially.

Jessica:            So she said that she did the thing, and she admitted that it was wrong and she said that she wanted to work on it.

Tara:                Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And do you believe that she meant that, that she was sorry and that she was going to work on it or was going to try to work on it? Do you believe that?

Tara:                I don't know. I did at the time, but as time kind of passes, I wonder if that's true. I wonder if she actually thinks she did anything wrong because what I'm hearing now through the grapevine is that she's having a "Woe is me" about it and feeling like she's lost so much. But the story isn't like, "I did harm and that's why I lost so much." The story is like, "I've lost a lot, and I'm hurting really badly because of it."

Jessica:            Okay. That's a lot. I guess the question I have is, is this a question about this relationship or is it about theoretical themes of forgiveness or grudge-holding or whatever?

Tara:                Yeah, that's a great question, and I've been ruminating about that. When I'm reading back the question, I think it's a question about this relationship. I think that's where my guilt and conflict lies, but then it has these echoes throughout the rest of my life, as well, where I feel like I've had these big rifts where the rug is kind of pulled out from under me, and I struggle to navigate that.

Jessica:            Okay. So we're going to answer it from both angles. That's not going to be a problem. We can totally do that. But I have to ask you another question before we dive, and it's have you ever made real mistakes? I'm not talking about, like, "Oh shit. I was late for 15 minutes." But have you ever perpetrated harm, made a mistake?

Tara:                Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. And have you ever forgiven yourself for that?

Tara:                Yes.

Jessica:            Oh. Okay. Great. Just interesting, good information to have, right? And when you struggle to forgive people, does it tend to be⁠—you have a hard time forgiving other people, but you don't have a hard time forgiving yourself? Or is it both?

Tara:                I think that I tend to have very high standards for myself and can be very self-critical. But then, when I do make mistakes, I feel like I don't beat myself up too much about it, if that makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, it does.

Tara:                So I'm able to get to that space of having compassion for myself. It can take me a little while, but I get there. When it comes to forgiving other people, I've been reflecting on since I wrote the question. And I think that I am actually pretty good at forgiving people, and I think I actually am kind of good at keeping people in my life despite what kind of difficult things might transpire between us. Yeah, but I still⁠—yeah. There are certain areas where⁠—or certain people, certain dynamics, and certain relationships where it is like I don't know if I could or would ever be able to repair that.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. That's real. And I am of the mind that it's not necessary to forgive everyone all the time and to keep everyone in your life forever. I mean, that's just not life. That said, let's start with focusing on this dynamic in this relationship. I'm going to have you say your full name and then her full name, and let me look at this situation psychically.

Tara:                My full name is [redacted], and her name is [redacted].

Jessica:            Okay. So true or false? Tell me if I'm seeing this right. This person was your best friend for many, many, many years, and you were very, very close, and you very much loved her. And also, you were growing apart in ways that you were trying to ignore, and there were real differences between you, not conflict but differences. Am I seeing that correctly?

Tara:                I didn't feel that way.

Jessica:            Interesting. Did she?

Tara:                I don't know. Maybe. We seemed to be very much on the same page. I thought we were sort of there together.

Jessica:            Let me unpack this a little bit. Say her name one more time.

Tara:                [redacted].

Jessica:            Does she share your values?

Tara:                I thought so.

Jessica:            Why did you think that?

Tara:                Because she would say them.

Jessica:            She would say them after you said them? She would say them after you watched the same TikTok? She would say them unprovoked? She would say them when?

Tara:                Unprovoked. And also, in response to things that were happening or if I brought something up, she would kind of have aligned insight into things.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm going to pause you. You're saying "things." Let's define. I'm not talking about ideologies as much as the personal part.

Tara:                Oh.

Jessica:            You didn't even clock that. Okay. Yeah.

Tara:                Yeah, I'm thinking, like, politics.

Jessica:            I know you are. Yeah. I was like, "Why are we not clicking?" It's because you're thinking ideologically.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            I'm talking about the more personal stuff. I'm talking about emotional accountability, and I'm talking about emotional maturity and the feelings part.

Tara:                I don't know. I feel so fuzzy about it. There's a part of me that's like, "We did." But then, in retrospect, I'm questioning everything because someone who did share my values wouldn't have acted in the way that she acted. And it also seems like she was keeping a lot from me and not actually being honest about what she thought, what she felt, what she was doing.

Jessica:            That's what I'm getting at. Yeah. And do you know why she would do that?

Tara:                I think that she had kind of put me in a box where I'm the good person, and she wasn't going to show me other sides.

Jessica:            So that was a very "I have a stellium in Libra" way of saying she was scared of your judgment.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. So you've got a Cancer Sun. You get what that means. But you've got Venus, Chiron, Mercury, and a Leo Rising. So you've got four placements in Leo. So, yes, she did put you on a pedestal. But also, she was correct to be scared of your judgment, about the ways in which you weren't aligned. It wasn't mutual. You weren't scared of her judgment because she wasn't judgmental towards you.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. I want to just acknowledge I can feel the feelings instantly hit a pocket, and I'm sorry. Now, I don't know what she did, and I'm on the fence about whether or not it's relevant, ultimately. My guess is she did something very wrong, and she knows she did something very wrong. But she didn't do it, from what I'm seeing⁠—and I'm not all in there, so I might not be seeing this right, so please do tell me. But what she did was clearly the result of emotional immaturity as opposed to calculated malfeasance. Is that correct?

Tara:                I think that that's probably what was going on. But I guess that's part of the issue is I'm unsatisfied with that.

Jessica:            Okay. Let's stick with⁠—you know what she did. I don't know shit. I'm just some psychic. But you know what she did. So let's just stay with, do you believe⁠—whether or not it's sufficient, whether or not it makes a difference, do you believe that the harm she perpetrated she did for any reason other than emotional immaturity?

Tara:                Yes.

Jessica:            You do?

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

Tara:                Because I think that she⁠—and maybe this is just emotional immaturity, but I think that she has control things.

Jessica:            Control things. Say more.

Tara:                Yeah. Control issues.

Jessica:            So she was trying to control the other person or control herself in the situation.

Tara:                I think she was trying to manipulate things.

Jessica:            Okay. And was she trying to manipulate things so she could perpetrate harm on someone or because she's emotionally immature and that was her only coping mechanism that she had? You don't have to forgive her if you actually think it's emotional immaturity. I see your little face. You're feeling trapped. You're not trapped. We're just trying to get at it, you know? We're just trying to get at it. You don't have to ever forgive her.

Tara:                Right. Right. I'm just like⁠, to call it emotional immaturity⁠—it feels like a pass for how harmful her actions were.

Jessica:            Interesting. Okay. Do you feel comfortable to share what she did just briefly?

Tara:                She had a friendship, a close friendship where she was receiving a lot of care from someone and sharing a lot of intimate details about their relationship pasts. And she kind of, on a dime, was like, "I love this person. I'm in love with them," but was doing a lot of things leading up to it that were⁠—I would call shady, just kind of gray area sort of romantic things or intimate things. And then, very quickly, she kind of just love-bombed this person and neglected a lot of their boundaries, and then was using sulking to get stuff out of them, to get intimacy out of them.

And then, when this person was like, "Hey, this feels really unhealthy, and I love you a lot, but I don't want to be in an unhealthy situation with you," she turned around and was essentially like, "Fuck you," and just completely disposed of that friendship and that relationship that she'd had that really started picking up in the summer.

Jessica:            So I have a couple questions. You used the term "love-bombing." God bless the internet. You know what I mean? God bless the internet. It taught us all the same buzzwords. It taught us all the same psychological terms and astrology terms and all these things. And because we've all seen social media posts about it and maybe read a very brief article about it, we all know what love-bombing is. Right?

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            We've heard podcasts about love-bombing. Okay. But the reality is the ways in which we love and like and try to connect with other people are a reflection of what we're about and where we are. And sometimes what we're about and where we are is trying to actually harm someone else, trying to fuck with someone else. I mean, we all know there are people who are like that.

What you've described is somebody who was desperate to be in a connection with another person and went about it in an emotionally immature way and in a way that was hurtful but also not abusive in any way⁠—not cool, but there is a difference between perpetrating harm and abusing someone, like abuse of care. So what's the face mean? Tell me what you think. Do you think there is no difference?

Tara:                No, no. I think that there is a difference. I'm just like, in this instance, I feel like⁠—I wonder what the line is, in terms of like, if someone doesn't want to touch you, if someone is pumping the brakes and saying no and you're refusing to recognize that or⁠—

Jessica:            Are you saying that your friend sexually assaulted this person?

Tara:                No.

Jessica:            Because that would be abusive.

Tara:                Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica:            You're saying this person sulked when she was rejected.

Tara:                This friend of mine was like, "Maybe we could hold hands." And when they didn't hold hands, the friend who I'm not talking to was sulking and sad and putting out a big mood, and then when she held her hand, cheered up.

Jessica:            And that's bad?

Tara:                It just feels, yeah, a little manipulative.

Jessica:            It is 100% manipulative.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But there are people, like people who own tech companies, social media companies, and they're like, "Our product doesn't hurt teens and people's self-esteem. It's totally fine for girls." But they know because they have the data. So they're manipulating the data, right?

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            But then there's somebody who is not emotionally mature enough to hide how butthurt they are and has not evolved to a place where they can take responsibility for their feelings and their needs, and so they're messy.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And you're really describing somebody who's⁠—because I was expecting a much worse story. You're describing somebody who's messy and not good at dating and who has a lot to learn about the consequences of their behavior, but also really about their own emotional capacity because what you're describing is they were so obsessed with their own desires and insecurities that they centered those things. But when a boundary was set, when a clear boundary was set by this third person, what it sounds like⁠—when they were really explicitly clear, "No, I do not want this," the friend you're no longer talking to actually respected that boundary, not in an emotionally mature way, but they did.

Tara:                There were a lot more nos before that.

Jessica:            I see. And those nos were greeted with...

Tara:                "We're in love. What are you talking about? Why should we hold back on what we know is true?"

Jessica:            Desperate pleas for love.

Tara:                "You're my wife. You're going to be my wife."

Jessica:            Yeah. Desperate pleas for love.

Tara:                Yeah. Physical boundaries, too⁠—this friend of mine, not the one that I'm not talking to but the other friend of mine, was like, "I don't want to do anything intimate before we both talk to our therapists about this because this is a big change in our relationship. So I want to kind of go slow and figure this out and take it slow." And in response to that, Not Talking To shows up at her house with a flower and kind of tries to seduce her and, yeah, puts her in this really uncomfortable situation.

                        And the other thing that's difficult about it is that she knows that this other friend just got out of a really abusive relationship, and they talked a lot about that. And she knows all these things about her. And so Not Talking To was not taking any of that stuff into consideration and not listening to any of the, like, "Let's slow it down. Let's not be intimate. Let's not do this. I'm not ready for that," and was just pushing everything super hard.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's interesting. Something that I experience in Queer community is how in each other's relationships we get. It is like a thing. And we're going to get into your birth chart and forgiveness and all this stuff. But what you're telling me happened⁠—I know tons of people that this has happened to. That doesn't mean it's okay or it's good.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            But part of what you're describing is that this third friend expressed their boundaries, but not firmly and clearly.

Tara:                No, I think they were pretty clear.

Jessica:            So here's the thing. If I say to you, "I'm not going to talk to you," and then you come to my house, I don't open the door because I'm not talking to you. That's the boundary.

Tara:                Right. Yeah.

Jessica:            At least my take. So there's just a standard you're holding Not Talking To to that you're kind of not⁠—you've kind of decided there's a victim and perpetrator, period. And what I'm kind of pushing back against here is that, yeah, there was the⁠—Not Talking To did a bunch of stupid shit because she's emotionally immature, clearly, because she's not handled her shit. But I can understand that she fell for this woman, and she was desperate to make it happen. And so she handled it all wrong.

And we don't have to forgive, and we don't have to persecute. Whatever. Whatever we want to do with that there⁠—but that in your story part of what I'm hearing, although you're not really⁠—maybe I'm hearing it wrong or whatever, but it's that this other friend was ambiguous about what she was available for, and she wasn't firmly saying, "No. I need you to know that this needs to stay platonic." "I need to go talk to my therapist first" is easy to understand as, "This is so important to me. I don't want to get it wrong. I have to talk to my"⁠—I could see how somebody could misconstrue what that meant because when it comes to love, some of us are perfectly healthy and wonderful, but most of us are a hot mess.

This is my interpretation because I thought you were going to tell me this person burned someone's bunny or something like that. I thought she did something. But this sounds like unhealthy⁠—and it's showing you something about her that maybe you didn't realize. But as I say all this, what I'm seeing in you⁠—so now I'm going to pull back from the friend and look at you⁠—is that there's a very intense push-pull, push-pull, push-pull inside of you. Part of you is like, "No, Jessica. Fucking no. No. Just no. No." I could see why your friend would be scared to tell you some things because your sense of right and wrong is unbending.

Tara:    Totally.

Jessica:            So let's just stay with that. Let's just stay with that. And there is a part of you that's like, "I disagree with Jessica about this, and that makes me question whether or not I disagree with Jessica about everything." Is there a little bit of that, a little bit?

Tara:                I mean⁠—

Jessica:            A little bit.

Tara:                I feel like, yeah, a little bit. It's not necessarily like I disagree about everything, but it's this kind of⁠—and I feel this way about the friend, as well, where it's like everything is in review. I'm like, "Then what"⁠—

Jessica:            "If I disagree with you about this core thing, how could I not have to review everything I thought I agreed with you about?" is essentially what you're saying.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Again, let's stick with that. We're just sticking with that. Somebody does have a couple placements that are fixed, only a couple. Okay.

Tara:                I know.

Jessica:            For the people, we'll say everything in your chart except for Jupiter, Neptune, and Uranus, which are all in earth signs, by the way, and then your Moon in Pisces. Everything else is fixed⁠—oh, and your Cancer, your Sun in Cancer. Yeah. But that Sun in Cancer⁠—we're going to get to that in a minute, okay? We're going to get there.

Tara:                Okay.

Jessica:            But⁠—

Tara:                That's what I mean. Like, yeah, I feel like I am so like, "It's this. It's this."

Jessica:            It's only this.

Tara:                "I don't see how you could see anything else except for this in this situation."

Jessica:            Yeah. So, on the one hand, I respect you. I believe you. I'm there with you. Okay. You know what I mean? The way you're seeing things is the only way to see them. The way you see things is infallibly correct. And there's no flexibility or room for people to be different than you. Do you stand by that?

Tara:                I feel like there's a part of that in me for sure.

Jessica:            Yeah. I agree. I agree. There is a part of that in you.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            There's a part of that that doesn't⁠—I think you intellectually maybe wouldn't lead with that statement the way I said it, but there is that⁠—

Tara:                Absolutely not.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay.

Tara:                I felt like that's a ridiculous thing to think and feel. But that's the piece that I feel like I'm getting at with the question, is I do feel that, where I'm like⁠—I feel very staunch in my perspective.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. To just take a pull back to talk about⁠—like we talk about cardinal, mixed, mutable. Fixed signs are the zodiac signs that happen in the center of a season. There's no changing summer. There's no changing⁠—the seasons that we're referencing are like it's the middle of the season. There's no change. There's no shift in the season. This is how summer goes. This is how winter goes. And so, when we see that kind of modality in play in our nature, it is authentically painful and challenging to imagine from a different perspective what seems clear to you.

And you are not alone in feeling that way. I have my own fixed placements. I'm with you. When I'm right about something and I know I'm right, I'm like, "Well, there's no⁠—what? No." Other perspectives, sure, but they're wrong. So I'll be open to listening to the wrong idea. That's fine. Right? We fixed placements⁠—we get that in us. So we are what we are what we are. But⁠—big "but"⁠—having this much Leo in you⁠—and you have other fixed placements, but we're going to focus on Leo in this moment⁠—means that you have a really big heart.

And if your heart is authentically big⁠—so now we're back to emotional maturity, if I'm being honest. If your heart is authentically big, then it's big enough to hold what you don't understand. It's big enough to hold what you don't agree with. And I'm not talking about abuses. No. But I am saying you have in your nature, even with your very fixed nature, the capacity to decide, "I'm going to allow my heart to be big enough to tolerate my judgments and still keep it open," because when I was saying all the things that you disagreed with⁠—which I was saying because I agree with, not because I was trying to test you, but it just worked out really nicely for me in this way. Sorry.

Tara:    Yeah.

Jessica:            What I could see was that you were getting more and more tight, more and more closed, more and more closed. And then it got to a point where what it felt like your energy was kind of ruminating over is, "I don't understand how we can get past this point," essentially. "This is a sticking point," basically.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            Right. Okay. So that means your heart's no longer open. And so I want to just, first and foremost, identify that for you, working on emotional maturity will require keeping your heart open as you explore things you don't agree with. The reason why you don't agree with them is because, in part, you don't understand. And I think that became clear in the very beginning of our conversation, where I was like, "Oh, are there differences between the two of you?"

And you were like, "No," because you're talking about ideology and not actual emotional differences because what I'm seeing is that this young woman chose to not tell you things because she knew you'd judge, and she was really smart to do that. She was not wrong. She should not have told you those things, because you would have judged her. And then what would she have done? She just would have lied about it because you can't magically become flexible.

Tara:                That's the piece where I'm like, "If you're telling me you have these ideologies and these politics and these greater values, how do you not see the ways that you're abusing your power and your influence over people and your experience?"

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Okay. So this is⁠—

Tara:                "How do you not see it?"

Jessica:            This is a great thing you just said because I could say the same thing to you, that you're using the rigidity of your judgment and your moral certainty around somebody else's romantic endeavor to say what's right and wrong and how someone should feel and how someone shouldn't feel. So what I'm really saying⁠—and don't worry. I'm not accusing you. I see your energy flooping.

Tara:                I was just thinking.

Jessica:            But for real, because we are not ideologies. We are not just a politic. We are not just a politic. And I say this as somebody who has incredibly high standards and can be very rigid. That said, those high standards and that rigidity is my issue to heal. I'm not saying that you should remain friends with this person. But what I am saying is that she does have those politics, but she doesn't have the emotional maturity to live in accordance to them 100 percent of the time because what I heard in your story is that there is this girl, and she started to get close to another girl.

And she caught feelings for that girl, and she became more and more into this girl, and she got really mixed messages from this girl because the other girl wasn't sure what she was available for. And she then became convinced that they were going to be together, and it was going to be amazing, and she was so into this woman. And at that point, this woman started to tap on the brakes and pull back. And she thought, "Well, if I convince her, she'll see what I see because I'm so into her."

Tara:    Right.

Jessica:            And honestly, that is not an abuse of power or a manipulation. That's being delusional and emotionally immature. Tell me.

Tara:                For sure. And I think there's another little piece to this, as well, where⁠—this is such an intricate, close-knit group of people, but⁠—

Jessica:            Hit me. Hit me. Hit me.

Tara:                So she took some⁠—like another young Black woman under her wing as a mentee and poured a lot into that, was buying her a lot of things for work, supporting her a lot in life outside of it, spending a lot of time with her, and she was telling her intimate details about her sexual relationship with her ex. At the same time she was dating this ex⁠—this was very recent. She was dating this ex, and it was really messy. And we were all kind of like, "Maybe you shouldn't be doing this." That was a messy situation.

Jessica:            Is this mentee the same person we've been talking about, or is this a different situation?

Tara:                No.

Jessica:            I see. I see. I see. I see.

Tara:                This is a different person, but this is someone who's literally related to the other person. They're cousins.

Jessica:            I see. Oh.

Tara:                And also a very close friend of mine and a fair bit younger than us. She's in her early/mid-20s. And yeah, exactly. Also very unboundaried and kind of unstable and comes from a lot of trauma as well. And so, when I was talking about the abuse of power, that's actually what I was thinking about, was⁠ like—

Jessica:            I see.

Tara:                There were multiple pieces to this. And when I'm talking about the things that she wasn't telling me⁠—like there was stuff about the most recent whirlwind love situation that she had that she wasn't telling⁠—she wasn't telling me anything about that, which I also kind of understand and wasn't the big sticking point for me. But the point for me that I found so offensive was that she was telling this person that she works with who's younger than her that she has a lot more experience than all these really intense things about her sex life, and also talking a lot of shit about this ex that she had while they were in relationship, and then being like, "Shh. Do not tell."

Jessica:            Here's where I'm going to pull back. This is really important. You've already decided you're not going to forgive this person, and I am not here to make you forgive this person. And I know that your question is, "How should I forgive? Should I forgive?" We can get to those two points in a moment, but you've decided not to forgive this person. And you have a really ironclad set of feelings and narratives to defend those feelings, period. And that is where you're coming from, and that's not bad, and it's not good. It's just where we are.

                        So, if we start with acceptance⁠—which is an annoying thing for me to say because I am going to turn it around on this other person eventually. If you start with acceptance, you can afford to be inquisitive and curious and to explore your ideas and all of that. So I want to just throw that into the mix for you to use as you will. Now, the second story you've told me is much more dramatic than the first story, as far as my ears work. The second story you've told me is somebody who has almost ten years on another person⁠—is that correct? Almost ten years?

Tara:                It looks more like⁠—it's six years.

Jessica:            Oh. Six years. Okay. So not as terrible, but six years on a person who⁠—there is money exchanged and maybe sexually inappropriate conduct and somebody saying⁠—so that's a little bit more of an ethically really messy thing than the first story, as far as my ears hear it, because the first story is really⁠—I'll just say if you're only going to be friends with people who never do anything wrong with the people they're dating, you are going to have a very small social circle⁠—in life, not just you. Me, you, everybody. Good luck to us all because we all fuck up. We all fuck up, especially in our 20s, right?

Tara:                [crosstalk]. Yes.

Jessica:            That's life. That's life. You don't want to ever lose a friend because you went bananas with somebody you have feelings about and you acted out. You don't want to lose your friends for that reason.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So there's community accountability, and then there's the freedom to be a fucked-up person who makes mistakes. I don't know where this falls. Again, I am not here to adjudicate that. Say your full name out loud for me.

Tara:                [redacted].

Jessica:            Thank you. If the question you are asking me is, "Is my ex-friend's conduct unforgivable and a sign that she is a manipulative or abusive person?" that would be one thing. I don't think that's exactly what you're asking me, is it?

Tara:                No.

Jessica:            And ultimately, that's a judgment call, right? And it is yours to make because you are the friend. It is your life. Who you let into it is on you. But what I'm seeing as, "I've disagreed with you about some things," is really what you asked me the question about. It's this part of you that⁠—there's a great deal of self-defense here. There's a great deal of self-defense, right? It's when a thing doesn't go the way you feel that it should go or you expected it to go, the way that you experience the urge to defend yourself, the need to defend yourself, the way it shows up energetically is like a beautiful, flat wall, not a mountain to climb. There's nothing to hold on to. There's no doors. There's no way in.

                        There is a way that you protect yourself from others and also from distress, just the distress of being like, "How can you not see it the way I'm seeing it? This makes no sense to me," is by really blocking them out and also not allowing them any way in. There is no way in. And that would make you a pretty intimidating person to have intimacy with at times because if somebody knows that they've done something that was fucked up, like emotionally immature or on the border of ethically fucked up⁠—whatever the situation may be⁠—I could see how they'd be scared that you would just cut them out⁠ emotionally or behaviorally.

Tara:                Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. And if you just cut people out, that is your fucking call. That's your choice to make. You are an adult human with agency, and you can cut anyone out for any reason at any time. But you wrote the question because you're dissatisfied with your own capacity to explore some of these feelings and thoughts, right?

Tara:                Yeah. Exactly.

Jessica:            Yeah. And in this situation, I can understand why this would be triggered by this situation because on the one hand, I feel like you could sit around with five of your closest friends and talk shit about this ex-friend, and everyone agrees about how she was fucked up. You can see, "Oh shit. This person is a lot less emotionally accountable and mature than I thought they were, and I don't want this person in my life because of that." You have the right to have that feeling and to have that thought and all that kind of stuff, or to have incredible judgments towards her. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You are an adult. Here's the "but." The "but" is moral righteousness can be quite lonely.

Tara:                Yeah. And that's what I—I think I feel a lot of guilt about it as well. And it makes me sad, and I don't want the people in my life to feel intimidated or like I'm going to judge them harshly. And I think sometimes I do judge people harshly. But when I feel like something kind of shitty has happened or kind of sucks has happened, I feel like I have a lot of space to talk things through and try and find ways through it.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm going to challenge you on that because as a psychic, I've been able to get in and around some things with you. But if this was just two friends having a conversation, if you just told me about this thing that was happening in your community and I had had the reaction I had, I can say as a psychic you would have been like, "This bitch does not know of what she speaks." And the conversation would have been essentially done.

Tara:                Maybe. I feel like I would just want to talk more about it.

Jessica:            Interesting.

Tara:                I feel like I would want to talk more about it and see what you thought about the whole story. The whole story feels really big to me.

Jessica:            Right. And there's a lot of details I didn't get.

Tara:                For sure.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm going to interrupt again to say, throughout this conversation, you keep on bringing things back to intellectualization⁠—so weird for a Cancer. You keep on bringing things back to ideologies and intellectualizations and theories and inadvertently bringing the conversation away from feelings because maybe you wouldn't say to me, "Jessica, fuck off. What?" or even think it in those exact words. What I can see as a psychic is that's what's happening on an emotional level. So maybe you would have maintained some theoretical curiosity and openness, but emotionally, she done. The door is closed.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            Okay, because that's what we're talking about here.

Tara:                I can see⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Tara:                I can see that.

Jessica:            So let's introduce another layer of complexity. Yeah, you're a Cancer. Sure. But your Sun is intercepted in the eleventh house, which means a lot of things. One is your own emotions are so big other people can see them. Other people experience them. You experience them. Yet they can feel a little out of touch for you, a little out of control for you in that way.

Tara:                Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah. And they get especially triggered around eleventh-house issues, groups of friends.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            That Sun in the eleventh house really comes out in community, in groups of friends. Now, I'm going to add something else. You have Pluto opposite your Midheaven, also Pluto opposite Mars, also Pluto square Saturn. And what this means is a lot of fucking things, but a big one is you learned as a very little kid the way to survive is to fucking track and report. You track and report. You are constantly, constantly, constantly tracking. And as soon as you've reported to your own inner database, "Danger. Abuse of power. Danger. Big ego. Danger. Doesn't play nicely with others," you're like, "Ah. I reported to the inner blah, blah, blahs. And now I defend." You go full fucking defense mode.

Tara:                Totally.

Jessica:            So you're going defense mode. And that is a survival mechanism that you never want to lose. I mean, you came by this⁠—honestly, you came by this through trauma. And I don't want to say it's a bad thing to have in you. It's going to keep you safe if you're in real danger. The problem is when you use this in situations where there's not actual danger⁠—there's just, "Ew," or, "Ouch"⁠—then what happens is you build a wall around yourself. Fucking Saturn. I mean, Saturn is so good at building walls. It's just brick, brick, brick, brick, brick. And it's great when you need it.

                        But when we put those bricks in place when we don't need it, what ends up happening is you're isolated and you're alone. And you're alone with your own fucking judgments, which is the worst because then you're mad at people that you're not even interacting with. So it really becomes about you struggling with your own drive towards judgment, punishment, as a way to keep yourself safe.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            And again, I don't get the feeling that you're going to continue to be friends with this woman. However, I also don't get the feeling that she is unsafe for you. I think she's emotionally immature and probably not a safe person to date. But as a friend, I honestly think she had your back and held space for you and didn't judge you and respected your boundaries and was empathetic towards your shit and was really loyal to you.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so this track-and-report survival mechanism with Pluto grounding your chart⁠— it's at the lowest point of your chart⁠—you have it to keep you safe. And again, even if I wanted you to get rid of it, you never could. But I don't want you to ever get rid of it. Keep you safe is good. But this is where if you are too theoretical and ideological, then you're going to miss out on the emotional part. Tell me what's up.

Tara:                It's just all those things about her and friendship feel very true. And so it's hard for me to understand actions.

Jessica:            You say that. Let's hang out there for a minute because if I'm right, if I'm seeing this correctly in your birth chart, I see the way you are when⁠—and have you been in a serious relationship with someone?

Tara:                Yeah. I've been in a few.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. So, when you're dating, you do shit you would never do with your friends. Am I wrong?

Tara:                Not really.

Jessica:            Interesting.

Tara:                That I would never do with my friends?

Jessica:            Let me get clearer about what I mean. I don't want you to get too in your head about this, okay? You have a Pisces Moon. When you're dating somebody and you really, really, really, really like them, you can get a little, maybe, codependent with them, like want to hang out all the time, super mergey.

Tara:                No.

Jessica:            No.

Tara:                No. Like, the opposite.

Jessica:            Okay. So your Uranus Neptune runs the show. Fucking fascinating. Have you ever been in love?

Tara:                Yeah, I think for moments. I don't know if I've been in⁠—I don't know. I imagine love to be something that's long and kind of has depth. I've been in love, like I love people that I'm with and I'm excited about them and I love spending time with them.

Jessica:            You're not describing being in love. You're describing having love. Right.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            Okay. Cool. No, this is good information. Okay. You've got that Uranus/Neptune conjunction in Capricorn that your generation has. It's in your fifth house, which is like a whole other conversation. But it's good for me to know that that's what's running the show. What we're getting to as we unpack your chart is that Cancer Sun and that Pisces Moon you keep in the basement. You keep those placements in the basement because they make you vulnerable.

                        And so it sounds like what you have done is dated people who you don't lose control with, which means you have not been in love because being in love is like falling off a cliff. It's fucking awful as much as it is glorious, right? It is all the things.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Your most serious or beloved relationship⁠—will you say their name for me?

Tara:                Um...

Jessica:            Do you have a hard time knowing which one was the most beloved?

Tara:                Yeah. Does that mean that I still have good feelings about them?

Jessica:            No, not at all. Okay. Wait. Let me interject to that. Being in love doesn't mean you love them forever. Being in love doesn't mean that they were a good person. Being in love doesn't mean it lasts for a prescripted amount of time. Being in love is feelings.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            You damn weirdo. Sorry.

Tara:                I feel like I'm kind of torn between two where I'm like⁠, "That was the loveliest."

Jessica:            Okay. Give me their names.

Tara:                But then the other one was the least lovely. There's [redacted], and then there's [redacted].

Jessica:            You were not in love with [redacted].

Tara:    It didn't get super serious.

Jessica:            No, of course not. I mean, he is lovely. Okay. These guys⁠—these are very weird examples that you're showing me of your deepest emotions. Okay. Now we're getting to it. I'm starting to see that you've gotten so good at taking care of yourself and protecting yourself that you're missing out on vulnerability. And that means you're missing out on this whole wing of the home that is you. If you and your consciousness and your whole human experience was a house, there is a wing of your house that you don't know is there because you are correct in understanding that it is a dangerous wing. You know what I mean? The floor is not always solid.

                        There's a lot of things with that wing of the house, but it is kind of the fucking most beautiful and majestic wing. But I'm seeing now that if these two guys were the ones that you pulled⁠—I mean, they were both really meaningful experiences, but that's what they were. They were meaningful experiences as opposed to falling in love. They call it falling because, literally, you fall. You don't step gracefully and intentionally into love. You fall.

Tara:                I felt kind of like that with the last one, with [redacted].

Jessica:            With, yeah, the kind of harder one.

Tara:                Yeah, where I felt like I was being vulnerable in a way, and I had sort of⁠—I was like, "Okay, I'm in it in a way that I haven't been with other people."

Jessica:            He wasn't a great person in the end, eh?

Tara:                Awful.

Jessica:            He was awful. So, in this situation, I am seeing that it was more emotionally wrought. You did experience more lack of control. But it was not super healthy because he's kind of a shitty guy when it comes to dating. And to this, I say two things. The first one is I'm so sorry. That's awful and that sucks, and I'm sorry.

Tara:                Thanks.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. It sucks. But also, I'm not really surprised that the first time you really let your guard down and you really let the emotional chemistry pull you, you chose somebody who wasn't great for you because you have worked so fucking hard on yourself and on cultivating maturity and being⁠—I don't know if "maturity" is the perfect word for it, but I'm going to keep using it⁠—maturity, accountability, all that kind of good stuff. But you haven't really let yourself go. And so you kind of pulled a guy that 19-year-old you would be all about. That's who he was.

It was as healthy as that part of you would be because, in a way, you set the intention to fucking protect yourself and to not be that girl when you were somewhere around the end of your teens.

Tara:    Yeah. That makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. And so he's kind of a douche. You didn't know until you knew, and that's because there was chemistry there. There was real chemistry, like emotional and sexual chemistry, yeah?

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So this is where I want to pull back and say who you were with that stupid boy⁠—am I right, though? He's such a stupid boy.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah.

Tara:                Awful.

Jessica:            Awful. Not right. Not right. But that is not a reflection of you as a friend. That's not a reflection of you as an ally. It's a reflection of you when you're in the most vulnerable parts of you that is not ideologically aligned because it's emotional, because it's like your inner child shit. It's like, oh shit, apparently you are also vulnerable to dating from the fucking bowels of your family trauma, just like everybody else.

Tara:                Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's what that was.

Tara:                When I think about this friend as well, I'm like, in a lot of ways, she was the one person that I had in my life that I would open up to about any and all my vulnerabilities. So I felt like she saw a really whole version of myself, and I felt very betrayed that she didn't feel that way back.

Jessica:            Okay. That's fair. And also, you did exactly what she feared you'd do. Why would you feel betrayed that she knew that you would do exactly what you did? In fact, it's validation that she knows you. Sorry. You know what I mean? But I mean, that's just real. She knew you, and she was right. She was right to hold things back from you because she would have been judged and fired, as she was. She was judged and fired. And again, maybe that's the best choice for you. That's not the point.

                        But I want to take a moment, since you have known her since you were both little kids. Do you know about her family history and her family trauma?

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            So does it make any sense to you, if you think about it from that perspective, why she would be loosey-goosey with boundaries and really needy romantically?

Tara:                Yes. Those things make perfect sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. So, when we use a trauma-informed lens, what we're doing is we're not looking for what's right and wrong. We're just looking for understanding because hurt people hurt people. Your rigidity is a self-care mechanism that hurts people sometimes. And you don't do it because you're trying to fucking control them or hurt them or manipulate them, even though maybe that's exactly what you're doing. You do that because it's the way you know how to take care of yourself when you feel activated.

                        And I want there to be room in this world for us all to be that, to be fucked up and to make mistakes. That doesn't free us from consequences. If the consequence of her behavior is that you just are like, "I lost all respect for you. Fuck this," then that's the fucking consequence. But I would, from what I know and from what I'm seeing⁠—and I don't know everything, and I'm not seeing everything, for the record. But from what I know and from what I'm seeing, she was a really great friend, and she did not betray you in any way, shape, or form, from what I'm seeing.

                        Listen. She knew you well enough to hide certain things. And that doesn't mean it was right. Don't do shit that you don't want to be judged for, I guess. But at the same time, who made you the judge and jury? It's complicated is what I'm saying. It's not black and white. It's life. And when we get into the emotional part⁠—because now you're actually in the emotional part, and there is sadness. There's some regret. And there's⁠—I mean, yeah, sure, there's a little bit of guilt. There's a lot of feelings in here. But it's the sadness you're trying to avoid. It's the sadness that you'll do anything to avoid. And your chart dictates the way that's most comfortable for you to get rid of sadness is to go into certainty, punishment, exactitude⁠—Leo, Mars, Pluto, Saturn. Boom. Kick-kick. Punch-punch. Bang-bang. You know what I mean?

                        So it may be that, for you, this person⁠—what they did with other people is not acceptable. And it may be for you that the friend that they've been to you is not worth losing over this and that you need to have real conversations with them. But if you go in that direction, you need to own that you come in as a judgmental person who is deciding whether or not to kick them out of your life with a lot of flare, and that if you do that, that's not actually creating a space where you're willing to listen because you've told me, "Oh, I'm willing to explore ideas." But I am saying to you exploring ideas with a professor is good, but with a friend, let alone a bestie, it's not just about ideas. It's about the feels.

Tara:                Yeah. That makes sense.

Jessica:            So, ultimately, the question is, can you expand your heart big enough to not defend yourself but instead to stay present with the messiness of what you actually feel? And if you can, you will be in a very small portion of the population of humans who can because it's really hard. It will not happen magically, organically, or perfectly if you try. And I think it's worth trying. Maybe it's not worth trying with her. That's for you to decide. But I do think it's worth trying because you want to really be known and seen, and you want intimacy. You want real intimacy.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And I mean, you don't need it all the time. That Uranus and Neptune in your fifth house⁠—you're good. Sorry, but yeah, you're good. But you are a Cancer with a fucking Pisces Moon in the eighth house. You want to have sex with someone you're in love with. You want to be able to completely lose yourself in someone. And the rest of your chart is like, "No, I don't." But your Moon in Pisces says, "Yes, I do."

Is there ever going to be a person who's safe enough to do that with? No. Absolutely not. Other people don't need to be safe. You need to be safe for you so that once you identify, like with the stupid fucking guy that we talked about⁠—when you identify, "Okay. This person is not who I thought they were," or, "They're not safe or healthy for me," that's when you're like, "Okay. Now I must dip. Dip I go. I will leave this situation now."

Having boundaries is really about managing your boundaries and recognizing the way other people respond to them is information. Yeah, this friendship, it's a huge loss for you. I mean, it is a really big loss. Will you say her name one more time?

Tara:    [redacted].

Jessica:            Has she tried to get back in touch with you?

Tara:    No.

Jessica:            No, because she knows you. She knows when you fire a bitch, they're out.

Tara:    And I told her that I needed a month at least, and she said⁠—

Jessica:            Well, how long ago was this?

Tara:    ⁠—"I won't reach out."

Jessica:            Smart.

Tara:    Just mid-January.

Jessica:            Okay. So it was very recent, very, very recent.

Tara:    Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            We've talked kind of about a lot of things. I want to just pause and see, do you have any questions?

Tara:                I mean, I don't know how to, essentially, quiet that part of myself that's really defensive when threatened or feeling like⁠—that is really judgmental.

Jessica:            Let's talk about that for a moment because I don't exactly know that it needs to be quieted. It's Leo. It's loud. That's its nature. So we will let it be loud. I wonder if you can feel the difference between now and 20 minutes ago in our reading. Can you feel the difference in the walls?

Tara:                Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah. The difference is now you feel more humble, and you feel more sad. And I can sense so much more flexibility inside of you. Your heart's mutable, actually. It's in Pisces. It's mutable, right? I mean, it's in a fixed house because the Universe was like, "We're going to make it really fixed." But still, it's in Pisces. And that defensiveness or that self-defense that comes up feels bad to you. I mean, this feels bad to you, too. I don't want to act like you got a good option here, because there's no good option when you're working through trauma responses, right?

                        But the reason why it both feels bad to you but also like the only thing that you could possibly do is because it is a trauma response. That rigidity and judgmentalness for you is a trauma response. And if you can identify, "Oh, I can feel those sharp edges in the smooth, nonporous wall come up," you can be like, "Okay. That's actually a trauma response." Just start identifying it. You don't have to do anything about it. Don't fix it. Don't change it. Just practice noticing it.

                        And then you may choose to start to sit with that wall and understand it because the truth of the matter is, so far, your trauma responses haven't had you doing something fucked up or bananas or weak or whatever with someone you're dating in your community, but it could. It could. I mean, who are we kidding? And if you're a person with trauma responses that have you acting in ways that you know aren't in alignment but seemed right in the moment, upon reflection, you can be like, "Okay. Maybe that was harsher than it needed to be, but in the moment, it didn't seem too harsh. In the moment, it seemed perfect"⁠—then do your friends not deserve that same grace?

                        There may be lines that she crossed that I'm not identifying, and she might not be worth keeping in your life. I'm aware of that. But I also want to say to you you're allowed to be friends with somebody who created harm and doesn't do a good job of taking responsibility for it in some ways. That is allowed. That's not a reflection on you. I know you feel like it is, but it actually isn't, necessarily. I mean, it's a reflection on what you're willing to consent to, but in all the time you've known her, these things that she's done, this way that she's acted in this finite period of time⁠—I mean, you've taken this one little moment in time where she's done some fucked-up shit with people she had feelings for, and that has been enough to throw away the rest of the friendship, which is interesting, right?

Tara:                I think the thing that feels like I can't have contact with her right now⁠—I'm not in a place where I could figure out how to do that⁠—it's really because I'm like, "How much do you not tell me? How much are you keeping me in the dark about what you're up to?" What does that mean? What does that mean for the past 20 years of crazy ex-girlfriends and messy situations and X, Y, Z thing? Because she's always had this, and she's always had flaws and things. And I've known that.

Jessica:            Right. If you're going to go in that direction, I just want to invite you to not take yourself out of the equation of why your best friend, who knows you better than anyone in the world, would hide things from you. It could be because she's a fucked-up person who can't be trusted, which is where you were when we first got on this call. But it may also be because she's a fucked-up person who doesn't want to be told that she's wrong in certain ways, and also, you're a judgmental person who might hear one bad thing and cut her out of your life. And she didn't want to lose you.

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            And so she did what she needed to do while still being a fucking top-tier, amazing, loyal, respectful, kind, empathetic friend. It's not like she manipulated you and pretended to be a good person. She was a good person. That wasn't fake.

Tara:                That's my fear.

Jessica:            And that's Plutonian. That's, "If you did one thing wrong, everything is wrong. If you made one mistake, then everything you've ever done is a mistake." That is this kind of all-or-nothing, black-or-white thinking that is Plutonian. And whenever you catch yourself doing it, be like, "I know that's Plutonian. I might not be able to see a way out of it in this moment, but at least I know that's Pluto." That's not Leo. That's not Cancer. That's Pluto. That's, "I will destroy everything in my path because of this one thing because everything in my path has to be related to this one thing."

                        And what I want to say is if the people close to you know that you are judgmental, which⁠—no judgment from me that you are judgmental, just by the way. I don't have a problem with that. But if people know the intensity of how you are judgmental and how when you make a decision, nobody's going to fucking change your mind⁠—nobody's going to fucking change your mind about your decisions. If your friends know that and they know that they're doing something that you're going to judge, whether they think it's wrong or right⁠—they think you're not going to think it's right⁠—what kind of idiot would tell you? I mean, that's the question I would ask.

                        If that's the case, then it's not really just a question if you decide to process with her and you decide to⁠—and I will say you should only process with her if you want to work on building a friendship. Don't process the end, because that feels like just scolding her. Right?

Tara:                Yeah. Of course.

Jessica:            Right, which is why it's good you're not talking to her yet. You have to figure some things out for yourself. But if you are going to process with her, if you're not going to come in with taking accountability for your part of why she wouldn't have talked to you, then you shouldn't even bother, honestly, because again, she wasn't wrong. I mean, she wasn't wrong. She wasn't wrong. And if she wasn't wrong, then that doesn't just say something about her. It says something about your friendship. It says something about you.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And that doesn't make you the bad guy. It doesn't make you a perpetrator. Again, you're not one thing. Her survival mechanisms are clearly like, "How can I make this work so that I can get my emotional needs met?" And your survival mechanisms are, "What's right? What's wrong?" You get very intellectualizing. You get very theoretical and stay away from the emotions.

Tara:                Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And it makes sense that the two of you didn't notice⁠—I mean, I think she noticed it more than you, but I think it makes sense why the two of you didn't completely notice this rift because you have kind of opposing coping mechanisms and trauma patterns around them. So, if you decide that this is something you want to work on⁠—and you don't have to, although that's a lie because Uranus is about to conjoin your fucking Mars. See?

Tara:                Okay.

Jessica:            So best of luck not changing. You're going to change. You're going to change, okay? And that transit, I should say⁠—it begins May 28th. You're going to start feeling it three months before May 28th. What's three months before May 28th? Oh, right, February 28th. Yeah. Right now.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Starting to feel it.

Tara:                Okay.

Jessica:            When Uranus conjoins Mars, that happens once in a lifetime if it happens in a lifetime. And it is a time where your ego⁠—that's Mars, right? But also, it's related to your coping mechanism, so related to your Pluto. It's related to the ways in which you defend and protect when you might need to feel and listen, which are not Mars's strengths. Uranus is going to mess that up by putting you in situations where you're dealing with curveballs. Eh?

Tara:                Right.

Jessica:            So I'm like, yeah, here you are already, feeling it early.

Tara:                [indiscernible 01:01:33].

Jessica:            Yeah. Totally. It's terrible. I'm sorry. But you're getting these curveballs that are forcing you to decide, "Do I cope in the way I've always done, or do I change?"

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            Nobody with Mars in Taurus is like, "I know. I'll change." That's not a thing. I'm so sorry.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            But again, the question really is like, are you interested in exploring change? Can you stay connected to authentic exploring requires emotional presence and not just your mind?

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            And if you are open and willing to change, is this relationship one that is worthy of trying?

Tara:                That's really interesting. Yeah. I've been thinking about these things anyways. I've been working on these things anyways. I've been working on what's under the defense, what's under the anger. So I feel like I'm trying to cultivate a sort of relationship with those feelings that are really obscured for me when they're happening.

Jessica:            Yeah. So the practice⁠—I'm going to give you homework to engage in⁠—is the next time that moral certainty that fills you up with a sense of⁠—I mean, it's really uncomfortable. It's a little angry. It's defensive. But it's also calm because it's certainty. It's all or nothing. So, the next time you experience it and then you identify it, practice breathing through the thoughts and the restless impatience that comes up, and stay with that emotion. I say breathe and continue to breathe because your brain is going to be like, "Word. Idea. Word. Idea. Defense. Defense."

And what I'm saying is stay with your breath into your body with the emotion, which will feel annoying. Annoyed will be a big one. Just stay with annoyed until you hit the vulnerable or the sad because the only reason why you're defending yourself so aggressively is because you feel vulnerable and/or sad.

Tara:    That makes sense.

Jessica:            Yeah. And then, from there, you can go back to being self-righteous and defending yourself and all the good things. You know what I mean? Leo, Leo, Leo. But just practice. Just practice sitting at the foot of the wall and making space for it because if you try to bulldoze your way into this, I mean, how is that going to work? You can't bulldoze your way into emotions.

Tara:                Yeah.

Jessica:            The reality is, at some point in your 30s, we all come to realize in our own way, "Oh shit. I'm acting like one of my parents or my sibling"⁠—some core family member⁠—"and I spent all my 20s/maybe my teens being like, 'I'll never fucking do that. Fuck that.'" And then, all of a sudden, we do it in our own way, in ways we weren't expecting, and it's because of the emotional stuff. It's not because of our ideologies. It's not because of our ideas. It's because of our emotions.

Dealing with emotional trance patterns, dealing with emotional trauma patterns⁠—these things take a lot of fortitude because they require being really, really uncomfortable and resisting your survival mechanism. So be patient with yourself. I know patient with yourself is not your forte, but practice patience with yourself, you know?

Tara:    Right.

Jessica:            I'll say one last thing, which is that June 8th through July 23rd in 2024, and then the month of February 2025, you will be going through, in those times, a Saturn conjunction to your Moon. This happens once every 29 years. So the last time it happened, you were little, and I'm guessing it was a time where some trauma went down in your family.

                        Saturn conjunction to the Moon is a transit that closes out a 29-year cycle of development for your emotions, and it opens a new 29-year cycle of development for your emotions. And when we're talking about Saturn, we're talking about maturity and accountability, humility. When we're talking about the Moon, we're talking about your feelings.

                        And so most people experience depression or sadness as we're confronted with our own limitations, basically, during this transit. There is a use for it. The use of this transit is that you are confronted with your reality, and you can make conscious decisions as an adult to make changes. So, whenever we go through Saturn transits, it's like the time to go pruning your garden and digging up some things and cutting back others and planting new things⁠—that kind of thing. That's what the Saturn conjunction to the Moon is about.

                        And so I am giving you this heads-up⁠—it's going to start in a few months⁠—so that you can orient yourself towards really working on and with your feelings, your emotions, and that will make the transit easier because that's the assignment. Whether you want the assignment, whether you're willing to participate in the assignment, that's the assignment. And it will be directly related to what happened about seven years ago, the last time you went through a Saturn square to your Moon.

Tara:                Seven years ago. Oh, that's 25, 26.

Jessica:            I'm guessing there was some shit.

Tara:                Totally.

Jessica:            Yeah. So that's the emotional theme. And this is what happens. This is what astrology teaches us. You go through a Saturn transit, let's say. And you do what you do. And then it seems like after this one shitty period of time⁠—could be a couple weeks, could be a whole year. But after a period of time, Saturn transit ends; you move on with your fucking life until seven years later. And then that same theme comes back. And if you haven't evolved the theme, you're exactly where you were left off except for you're older, which is why people don't like Saturn. So this⁠—

Tara:                I'm like, "Bring it on." I want to⁠—

Jessica:            You want it.

Tara:                I want to figure it out.

Jessica:            You want to figure it out. Okay. Good. Then this is good to know, that what you are dealing with is on time. It is on time. And it is hard. It's okay that you're not actually good at it. We all get to be ourselves. Your ex-friend gets to be emotionally needy and, as a result, manipulative as long as she wants to be. There will be consequences, but she gets to be who she is, which is not only a product of her choices but also of her trauma. That's okay. It might not be awesome, and you might not want it in your life. But it is okay, just like it's okay for you.

                        And I think if you can hold that space, you may still decide to keep her out of your life, but it won't feel as bad because it'll come from a more honest place. And that's really what you deserve, and so does she, because this friendship is⁠—I mean, a lot of really good things about it. Yeah.

Tara:                Thank you.

Jessica:            Yeah. My pleasure.