Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Alice, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Alice:              Yeah, thank you for having me. I reached out because over the last several years, my husband and I have done a lot of putting our own life, visions, and goals on the back burner. We live in a city where, after George Floyd was killed, our community had an uprising. And my husband turned his business into a support space for organizers and for activists.

                        And then he launched a nonprofit. And then his own business expanded on top of that. And my company, which supports marginalized voices⁠—I'm all about serving. That's my job. That's my purpose, my life calling. And so my job very much became even more centering of people who needed support. In the middle of that, we had a baby.

Jessica:            Congratulations, but oh my God.

Alice:              We had our second baby.

Jessica:            Everything all at once.

Alice:              Everything all at once. And so now it's⁠—COVID is still here, but our community has⁠—we have healed, are in the process of healing. And we're now in our mid-40s, and I just feel a little tired and exhausted from all of the ground that we lost for our own family in the middle of all of that, being a family of color, having a Black boy in the middle of all of what happened with George Floyd and Daunte Wright and so forth and so on across the country.

                        And so I'm sort of at a point of feeling like I would like to center my own writing more. I would like to center my own creative dreams. I would love to have my husband, my beloved, also do that. And it's just been so hard, Jessica, to give ourselves this permission to move into this next chapter for our family, that our family needs us and we need to figure out a path for saying, "Yes, community, we love you, and we are here. And our family⁠—we have two Black kids in a very white Midwestern community. And we need to serve them, and we need to serve ourselves." And it is hard for both of us.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. So there's layers. There's layers, and I don't want my personality to get in the mix. I want to give you what⁠—

Alice:              I do. I want your personality to get in the mix.

Jessica:            Okay. You'll get it all. You'll get it all. You'll get it all.  

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            Okay. So my question, before we get deep into anything, is are we talking about changes for both of you or changes for you? Do you have the kind of marriage where you can be like, "I'm going to figure this out for you. Let me tell you what to do," or does he kind of need to come to his own stuff on his own? How much is he a part of this reading?

Alice:              That's such a good question.

Jessica:            Thank you.

Alice:              I think it is a both/and. He and I are best friends, and we've been together now 21 years.

Jessica:            Congratulations.

Alice:              So we've kind of grown up together. Yeah. Thank you. And so we just had a hard conversation, like, "The nonprofit you started? It needs to pay you. You're doing so much in the name of community service and social action, and you also have a thriving suite of restaurants."

Jessica:            Oh, wow.

Alice:              Yeah. He's super busy. That impacts me, of course, with two littles because we have littles, and we're in our 40s. And our kids are two and seven.

Jessica:            That's a lot of energy for anyone of any age. But it's not easier when you're older in that way. I mean, I think you have more wisdom as a parent, but it's not like you have more energy, right? So okay. So does this mean that he's out of the house, gone doing stuff, and a lot of the housework/child-rearing falls to you?

Alice:              So, because we're both entrepreneurs, I would say we have a really good 50/50.

Jessica:            Okay.

Alice:              I'd have to give us some pats on the back for that. He is an all-in parent. He actually cooks quite a lot. He's good at cooking.

Jessica:            Where are the hours in the day that this man is working with? I'm very impressed.

Alice:              He is a Gemini. He has abundant energy. But for me, it's exhausting having our family be so committed to community. That's what it comes down to. It's like, for me, there's so much emotional labor watching your partner doing all the things. And I have been just very much like, "Our family needs the two of us to be more committed to our family's vision," which includes putting some of the community things⁠—either it gets weaved into our stuff, or it maybe has to take a back burner so that we can get a bigger home, so that we can focus on the companies that need to be more lucrative for us financially so that we can take care of our kids.

Jessica:            That's very real, and okay. The way I'm going to start this⁠—because I have so much to say based on your birth chart, but I want to take a peek at him because it's not realistic that we just look at you. So I'm going to have you say, first, his full name and then your full name.

Alice:              Yep. So my full name is [redacted].

Jessica:            That's not your full name.

Alice:              Oh, like middle name, too?

Jessica:            Give me your whole thing.

Alice:              [redacted].

Jessica:            Better. Thank you. Okay. Great. And him?

Alice:              So he's Jamaican, which means he has a lot of names.

Jessica:            A hundred names. Give them to me.

Alice:              His birth name is [redacted].

Jessica:            And he's not in the house, right?

Alice:              No.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So we can't pull him in. Okay. Okay. I don't usually do that, but I was like, "I'd pull this man in right now if I could." Okay.

Alice:              I wish you could see him. He's a great guy.

Jessica:            He seems like a real sweetheart. But okay. So I'm just going to start with what I'm seeing, which is you have told him what you feel. You've told him what you need, and he has heard you authentically/he hasn't heard you. It's both. I think he actually has heard you, and also, he's hearing everything else all at once⁠—typical Gemini issue, I guess. And he is thinking about what you said and doesn't disagree with you, but he's also thinking about other things in equal priority.

                        And so I want to just acknowledge he's not where you're at energetically, and he does not perceive the situation in as linear a way, which has worked for him his whole life when he hasn't had kids because you don't have to be linear when you don't have kids and you're a Gemini. But in general, you just don't. You just don't. But it's not just the fact that you have kids and that you have financial needs and that the family needs more attention, although it is that. There's something else that's happening for you.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Now, I was seeing this before we started recording. I have never seen so much Virgo in a person's chart. I mean, your Ascendant is at 16 degrees and 8 minutes. Your Sun is at 16 degrees and 59 minutes. And your Moon is at 17 degrees and 14 minutes. That is a very tight triple Virgo moment, plus you have Jupiter, Saturn, and Mercury all in the first house in Virgo. But you are going through a lot right now, and one of the things that you're going through is a Pluto opposition to Jupiter. And another thing that you're going through is Neptune is forming an opposition to Saturn and Mercury in your birth chart. These are all three once-in-a-lifetime transits.

Alice:              Okay.

Jessica:            And they don't happen to everyone. Not everyone experiences Neptune opposite Mercury, especially, and Pluto opposite Venus. So I want to start with Neptune. No, actually, let me pull back. I want to start with your hormones. So I don't know if you're feeling the beginnings of perimenopause. I think a lot of people don't know that they're in it for a long period of time. But my guess is your hormones are changing in a meaningful way.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And some of that's just time, and some of that is the psychological and physiological condition of burnout, which is often related to adrenal fatigue and other nervous system dysregulation from having been going, going, going, going so hard. And people talk about empathy fatigue, which is really just a different way of saying adrenal fatigue and all these kinds of other things. And the fact that you're going through these two Neptune transits clearly articulates that what you've been doing since before the birth of your first child⁠—it's just your body has said to you, "Okay, that's just about all I can do."

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And that is just real. Now, what's also real is Pluto is transiting through your natal fifth house, and it's opposite your Venus, which will mess with your hormones. So have you noticed active changes with your cycle?

Alice:              Recently. Like, just recently. So I was always right on time menstrual-wise, and just this last month, it's happening weird times. Like it just ends, but now it's coming back two weeks later, but only for a day or two. So I am starting to feel that. But I did have this baby at 40, and there was some postpartum after that, and yeah. And so, yeah, I do feel fatigue in a different way.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Alice:              Sometimes I don't know⁠—is it hormonal, or is it just being 40 with a two-year-old very, very outgoing little boy?

Jessica:            So I would say a couple things. The first is you got Capricorn on your fifth-house cusp. That's going to give you a solid and kind of succinct period; it comes on time, it does what it does, and then it goes, right?

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            But because Pluto has been transiting through it, your cycle has been changing. And some of how that's been experienced by you is having human children, right? It's procreation and all that it does to your system. Now, I'm going to say separate from everything else⁠—of course, I'm not a fucking doctor. Look at me. I'm not a doctor. And I trust that you will go to a gynecologist and get all the kinds of care that you need.

                        But I'm also going to say watch out for your sleep patterns. If you have any kind of night sweats or shifts in⁠—you know, there's lots of different subtle shifts. Something I learned from TikTok is that a lot of people who are in perimenopause or menopause have really itchy inside of their ears. And I was so glad I learned that, because I was like, "Why are my ears itchy all the time?"

Alice:              Oh, they are, like in the tube.

Jessica:            In the tube. It's a symptom. It's a symptom. Also, people can get frozen shoulder and other kind of tendon issues as a result of these hormonal shifts. And so it's not uncommon, when our hormones change, that kind of a lot of things shift with it. And whether or not it's hormones, it's physiological at this point. It's in your body, and there's no denying it, I'm guessing, right? You know it's in your body.

Alice:              Yeah, for sure.

Jessica:            And so all of that Virgo in you is like, "Okay. Well, I need to figure out what the problem is so I can fix the problem. And if I fix the problem, then I can keep on pushing myself even though there's no oil in the car, no gas in the tank." Right? Unfortunately, what Neptune transits come to teach you is that you are not what you do, which is like a nightmare lesson for somebody with a million earth placements, right?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And again, I'm not what I do⁠—of course not. But I better keep on doing because service is an action; it's not just an intention.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And also, you like doing shit. You're good at doing shit.

Alice:              I really do.

Jessica:            You like figuring things out. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to take that from you. But this is one of those things where if there is a pie and it's your favorite pie, you eat a small slice today so you can, in five days from now, eat another small slice? Or do you go and you eat the whole entire pie at one sitting? What kind of person are you?

Alice:              I like to eat it all in one sitting because I don't like leftovers.

Jessica:            Okay. I'm really glad I asked this because it tells me that your Jupiter conjunction to your Sun, Moon, and Rising is very strong. If we accept that the body is finite and that our energy changes in different circumstances⁠—it changes over time, and what not all people accept, but let's say we accept that, okay? Then it's not a leap to identify that there's so much you want to do in the world. There's so much work that you still have in you.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And there's so much you want to do for yourself because you are a grown-up woman who wants to have a life and be well. And then, also, you have a family that you really deeply love and are committed to.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And then there's also all the random shit from life, right? All of this stuff is true. And if we go back to my pie metaphor, there is one pie, and from it you must eat. And it's a delightful pie. It's life. But if you burn out all your energy, if you eat the whole thing, then you don't have tomorrow. And tomorrow you're going to want pie.

Alice:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so this is the other thing that Neptune transits teach. They teach boundaries. And unfortunately for you, your Jupiter/Sun/Moon/Ascendant conjunction⁠—tight conjunction⁠—says, "I'm going to do everything for everybody, and it's going to be fucking glorious." And then you have a Saturn/Mercury conjunction. You have Saturn at 28 degrees and 31 minutes of Virgo and Mercury at 28 degrees, 56 minutes.

                        So you have these very bananas-tight conjunctions, okay? And that Saturn/Mercury part of you says, "There's a finite amount for everyone. Everything is going to be difficult. And if I slow down and if I tap into what isn't working, I will be covered by an avalanche of shit." And it's hard to have such radically different impulses that run inside of you at the same time all the time.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And what Neptune is doing right now is it's triggering that part of you that is scarcity-based in your thinking, that has a scarcity-based, fear-based worldview. And what you, it sounds like, have done⁠—and I'm only pulling this from your relationship to pie, if I'm being honest. But I feel like this is a solid assessment. What you've been doing is you've been trying to live out of your positive, optimistic, resilient parts.

                        And what Neptune has come over the last several months⁠—and I can give you the exact date in a moment, but what Neptune has come to do is to say there are consequences for not treating yourself with care. Conservatism⁠—it's not just the bullshit that republicans have stolen from us. Conservatism is a being a conservationist with your energies, with your time, with your cares. And I think that your relationship to conservation hasn't been enough for your body as it is and the bullshit of the world as it is.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So, unfortunately, I have seen, many times, when people go through transits like you're going through, people experience literal adrenal fatigue. Now, I'm not saying that you have or that you are, but I bet it's a question mark for you.

Alice:              Yeah, for sure.

Jessica:            And burnout, because all of a sudden, Neptune comes around and it's like, "Fuck," you know, hole in your bucket, just⁠—it drains you. And if you haven't been generating enough energy to sustain yourself, then you find you don't have resources where you need them. Get ye to a doctor, and do a full blood panel. In my experience, Western medicine is pretty useless when it comes to perimenopause and hormonal stuff.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And in my experience, Chinese herbs are life-saving and game-changing. It's just finding the right ones, right?

Alice:              It's so funny you say herbs. That's actually been my spiritual journey the last two years, has been just inundating myself with everything I can learn about herbs. And so that's been a big part of my self-care, has been⁠ herbal medicine.

Jessica:            I'm so glad to hear this. All this Virgo⁠—I mean, you may unintentionally become an herbalist, like a full-on herbalist, because I mean, it's just⁠—it is so in your nature. Plant medicine is so in your nature. And there are so many ways of working with plants. I don't think you need to be monogamous to it. You're just going to find your truth of it.

                        So we're in agreement about your health. But the other part of this is you have come to me and said a lot of things about what your husband is doing, what he isn't doing, and all this stuff. But unfortunately, because Neptune is opposing your Saturn and your Mercury, you need to identify what your boundaries are. And you need to take care of those boundaries to preserve your energy and your vitality.

                        And this transit is two years. It's not forever. When the transit is over, you will have more energy again, if you manage your welfare, if you continue to do all the things. Right? So it started in March, really recently. You would have been feeling it as soon as January building, building, building, but it really started in March.

The problem is this is going to coincide with deepeningly difficult times in the world. And so much of your calling is to be of service and to participate in your community. This is a period where I've got to say you gotta put the air mask on your damn face before you start trying to put it on everybody else's.

Alice:  Yeah.

Jessica:            And the way to sustain the work⁠—and what I'm going to say, I feel like you know this intellectually because you've been doing it long enough and you're old enough. But the only way to sustain community work, organizing work⁠, any kind of social justice work or care work for others⁠, is if you take breaks.

And if you're not structuring breaks into your week after week after week, it's going to be⁠—you're going to hit a wall, and then you might have to take off a couple years, or step back for a couple years, because we are not wired to go hard all the time, especially if you care about what you're doing. It's just not sustainable. And this is why your system is just like, "I have to collapse to get your attention."

Alice:              Yep. All these other doors are opening. I actually feel less excited to be participating in the work against white supremacy. I'm actually kind of done. I don't really want to do it anymore. I really just want to write, publish. I want to be in my herbs. I want to publish my books about Black queens. There are so many other doors that are opening. I'm writing a play. I just don't want to, and I feel really convicted about it because I am the person who likes to be in the kitchen, and I feel the ancestors saying, "No, baby, you get to have a seat at this table. You don't have to be in the kitchen."

Jessica:            Yes.

Alice:              And it's really hard for me to unapologetically claim that as my truth when I know for sure that that is my truth.

Jessica:            So this brings me to the other fucking transit that you're going through, unfortunately. And I called it a fucking transit because it's Pluto. So Pluto is sitting in your fifth house, saying to you that the generative power of creativity, of making things⁠—that's making human babies, because you've had your children since Pluto entered your fifth house, but it's also writing a play. It's making art. It's finding out what an herb does and experiencing it. Right?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's all this kind of play and life-affirming energy. So Pluto, who's all about creation and destruction, is sitting opposite your Venus in the eleventh house. So how do you behave in groups and in community? You are beloved. You get along well with others. People like you. Everything's chill. It's dynamic. It's busy. Sometimes you might bump up against people because you have Venus in a fixed sign; it's in Leo. But you are a natural for groups of people, for community.

And what Pluto is doing⁠— so this began mid-February 2024, and it's off and on for two solid years. So now you're experiencing again in your body in a meaningful way the ways in which showing up and connecting with others is and isn't authentic to you because⁠—you've probably heard me say this before, but I'll say it seven million times before I die⁠—Venus is not just about connecting with people and relationships. It's about our values and being authentic.

And the kind of core question of every person's Venus, sooner or later, in one way or another, is, "Am I being authentic, or am I being accommodating?" And what Pluto is doing is saying, "I'm going to kick you in the gut every time you're accommodating instead of authentic. And then sometimes, for good measure, I'm going to kick you in the gut when you're being authentic just to make sure you stand by it."

Pluto transits are hard. They are confronting. They bring up shame. They bring up resentments. They bring up power struggles. And this is in part about your marriage, which we'll talk about on its own. But it's hugely about⁠—you know how to socialize and have your social needs met through community, and community efforts are about advancing your community or your communities, and they are about social justice and social change.

And that's the part you actually⁠—I just don't see there's any gas in the tank for going in with an agenda and advancing. That's really what it's about, is you just don't have any gas in the tank for that.

Alice:  Mm-mm. No passion, no joy. No.

Jessica:            I see it. It's like you did it. You did it, and it's not like, "No more needs. You fixed the problem." It's not that. It's just you ate the whole pie, and now there's no more pie. Maybe you'll get another pie later, but right now, there's no more pie. There's no more energy for it. There's no more juj. And that's okay, except you have shame around it.

Alice:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You have resentments around it.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And you have a marriage that is organized around it.

Alice:              That part. Thank you. Yeah. Well said.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. This is where we want to acknowledge that he hasn't changed. You're changing.

Alice:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I am seeing that over the course of your long relationship, there have been times when you've changed, and he hasn't changed, but he's like, "Wait. What are you doing? I'm going to follow you."

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And it just works. But it's different now because it's different now. It's different now because you're older. It's different now because you have kids.

Alice:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            It's all the things, right?

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And he isn't aware that it's different now. You're aware that it's different. He's not aware that it's different.

Alice:              Yeah. And his calling, too⁠—that's the piece of it. It's not like he has a gambling addiction, right? It's not like he's spending his time on things that aren't making needed changes in a very Midwestern white space that need to see his unapologetic Black confidence calling into question financial institutions, entrepreneurial opportunities. He is affecting laws around cannabis⁠—

Jessica:            Wow.

Alice:              ⁠—stuff for Black people here. He's feeding hungry people. He is⁠—

Jessica:            Wow.

Alice:              ⁠—helping to task the changemakers. He's on speed dial with our local leaders.

Jessica:            Shit.

Alice:              So it's not like I can say, "What you're doing isn't important." It's his calling. It's his purpose. It is important. Does it always pay our bills? No, it doesn't. Does it deplete both of us? Absolutely, it does. And when you have companies that are visible, oftentimes people don't know that behind the scenes we didn't get our daycare bill paid this month.

Jessica:            Right. This is so important.

Alice:              And we don't ask for help. And we don't know how to do that, and it feels weird coming from two people that, on the surface, look as if they have it all together. And what I'm trying to figure out is, how do I bolster up the back end so that he can do his work? I don't want to do that work with you, but I want to support our family so that you can. But also, I don't have the steam to grow my company to scale it to be better, bigger, whatever. It's just really hard.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple layers to this. One is that, I mean, when you tell me all the things he's doing⁠—and I know you've only told me some of the things he's doing⁠—that is so cool. I'm just like, yeah, we need to clear a path for this man. We need to make the path wider and easier to traverse.

Alice:              Yes.

Jessica:            And also, I'm sitting with you, and it is a decision for the two of you to make as a team and as coparents, that he gives everything he's got to the world and takes it from the family because that's unfortunately the reality. And you're in a position⁠—right? You have a lot of self-awareness. You're like, "I know I can't do what I've been doing. I know I can't sustain what we've been doing." And now you're trying to figure out, "Well, how do I make this work? How do I make it work that I get my needs met and he gets his needs met, and nothing really changes, but everything changes, but it doesn't all fall on me, but I don't put it on him?"

Alice:              Right.

Jessica:            Right. Okay.

Alice:              Yes.

Jessica:            So this is⁠—it's as possible as it sounds, of course. Also⁠—okay. Did he give you permission for me to look at his birth chart?

Alice:              Oh, I didn't even ask him.

Jessica:            Well, can you text him? Is his phone around him?

Alice:              Yeah. He's totally fine with it.

Jessica:            But I need his permission because I won't do it without his⁠—you know.

Alice:              Okay. All right.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, because I'll be honest. I can look at him energetically, and we can get a lot. But I really see this problem from your perspective. And I think you have two puzzles, and you're trying to make it into a single puzzle. Do you know what I mean?

Alice:              I do know what you mean.

Jessica:            These fit together, and those fit together. But I don't know that this fits into a single picture.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            There's going to need to be more compromise than I think you would prefer.

Alice:              I think that's true. And part of it is two business owners being married, right?

Jessica:            Yes.

Alice:              That's part of it.

Jessica:            Yes.

Alice:              And both of our companies are doing well. He said yes. You have his permission.

Jessica:            Yay. I love his permission. Okay. So what city was he born in?

Alice:              [redacted], Jamaica.

Jessica:            And then what's his year of birth?

Alice:              [redacted].

Jessica:            And then month and day?

Alice:              May 28th.

Jessica:            Okay. Well, I just want to say very briefly that you make his life a lot better. You just do.

Alice:              He would agree.

Jessica:            Yeah. I mean, I think anyone who knows him would agree. I don't think there's a single person who for a second would not agree about that. It's just very evident. He's very charming. I'm charmed. But here's the "but."

Alice:              He is incredibly charming.

Jessica:            He is. He doesn't understand. Listen. He's a guy, and his chart is telling me exactly what I already said to you. He believes everything you say. He agrees with you. He is smart. He's emotionally intelligent. He gets it, he gets it, he gets it. But he's getting 70 other things at the same time. So what he prioritizes at the end of the day is the hottest fire or the thing that broke first in front of him, right?

Alice:              Yes.

Jessica:            He's managing too many things. And you're both very lucky that he's well suited to and drawn to being of service to the world because he could be this way about anything, and it would be a mess. But he's this way about really meaningful things. But here's the thing. And you've been with this guy long enough you probably already know this, but it's worth me saying. You need to sit him down someplace that's not in your house or at one of your works, like somewhere that's a neutral space, and make eye contact with him and hold his hand. It has to be physical touch. It has to be eye contact. And say to him, "I'm struggling, and I need you."

Alice:              Yeah, I don't know if he's heard that part.

Jessica:            He 100 percent has not, sir. He has not heard that part. And that's in part because you haven't said it clearly, and that's in part because he's really good and not listening to you⁠—to anyone. It's not⁠—

Alice:              Yeah. No, it's not personal.

Jessica:            No. He's responding to the issue. What he hasn't heard is, "I'm different. I'm struggling, and I now know why. And I know what I need, and I don't know that it's possible. But I need us as a team to identify what I need and what you need and then figure out where we can compromise and how we can support each other." He will hear that. He's a good guy. He'll hear that.

He might not know what to do. I don't think either of you know what to do. I don't think there's an easy answer to this at this time because he is going, right now, through⁠—Pluto is just going to start to trine his Mercury the start of next year. I mean, he's just going to have opportunities and opportunities and opportunities. Do they make money? Nobody knows. He doesn't prioritize it, so who knows?

Alice:              Well, things always work out for him, and for me, too. I mean, we always land on our feet. That's the thing.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. There's a couple things. One is you have kids now. It is different. Of course, it's different. I mean, it's supposed to be different. It's okay that it's different. The other thing is the world isn't getting better.

Alice:              Right.

Jessica:            It's a shit show.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And you have accepted it more than he has. He's like, "This is fucking terrible. I gotta keep going." And part of why he's going is because he can't emotionally process some of the pain of what's happening right now.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And you are having a harder time doing that. That's what you typically do. But all these transits⁠—or if we want to talk about it just in terms of time and potentially perimenopause or something⁠, your body is not letting you just go, go, go and bypass the emotions. The emotions are slowing you down, and they're supposed to slow you down. They're supposed to slow you down.

                        And I think that you are unwilling to ask him to do less and care less, and he's not actually willing to do less and care less.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And that puts the two of you in a position⁠—

Alice:              Yeah. That's so true.

Jessica:            But that puts the two of you in a position where you need to assess, does that mean you are taking on more of the housework/child-rearing and maybe deemphasizing your career, and maybe you guys are just going to have to suck it up and have less money? Because that's not going to work. We know that's not going to work, right?

Alice:              Mm-mm.

Jessica:            Okay.

Alice:              No. No. That doesn't call to me.

Jessica:            It's not you. It wouldn't work for you as an individual. It wouldn't work for your marriage, for the spark that exists between the two of you. And also, it's not financially a smart move. This is one of those things where, as you age, it is actually okay to say, "I don't want to just survive. I actually know that I'm capable of taking good care of myself and my partner and my kids. And so I'm going to prioritize that, because of course, we deserve that." It's hard for all these things to exist at once, right?

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            There's the money piece. It's a really big piece. And then there's the challenge⁠—and I think this is part of why you haven't been more direct with him. But the two of you are not on the same page, and that's not normal for the two of you. You're typically very different people doing different things but kind of on the same page developmentally.

Alice:              Yeah. Yep.

Jessica:            You're like, "Okay. We took the runway. We did the runway." And he's like, "Yeah, but there's more runway. Let's keep going." You're not in that same space, and I think that that's scary.

Alice:              Yeah. Yeah, especially because⁠—and this could be all the Virgo in my chart, right? I feel like we have scaled mountains, and we have been the first to do a lot of great and dope shit. I don't need more awards. I don't need more accolades. I could always do more business, but this next chapter of my life feels more centered around growth. It feels more centered around working less and getting paid for working less. It feels like enjoying our children because they are the most amazing little humans I've ever come across, ever. There are so amazing.

                        And we have got it pretty easy, right? We have two healthy, whole, happy, joyful Black kids. And so what you're saying is true. I see the world, and I'm like, "Yeah, it's not going to get better. But we have this little piece of heaven right here. And I think we need to focus on that. I think our ancestors paid a high price for us to enjoy the fuck out of them." He's an immigrant, too, and he's living in this country, and he feels like he has a different vantage point, that his lens of seeing the world is different. And what if he could just get everybody to see it from his side?

Jessica:            Yeah. He has the chart of⁠—he has a Uranus/Midheaven square. He's an innovator. He takes risks, and he sees things from a different perspective. And he knows how to make things come together. He is good at organizing and community-building. It's not labor for him. There's this spark of discovery. He loves it. He's good for it.

Alice:              Yep. He feels like he was built for it, Jessica.

Jessica:            He was. He was. I see it. And also, what is okay for you to remind him is that he chose to build a family with you, not just because you have kids and a home, but also because the way your relationship works is that the two of you are a family.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            There's all those pieces.

Alice:              Before the kids, we were a family.

Jessica:            You were a family before the kids, separate from the kids. I mean, we're not separating you from the kids, but I see that that's your love life. It's like you have this dynamic powerhouse, super smart, motivated weirdos together, if I may.

Alice:              It's so true. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's what it looks like. You guys are⁠—you have all this dynamic, romantic boy/girl energy, but you also are just family. And that is by design because he wanted family. And he met you, and he was like, "Family." And he built a family with you. He built his life around family.

I don't think that this transition has an easy answer. And it needs to be a transition in your relationship. He needs to make compromises for his family that you've never asked him to make. And he's not great at compromising⁠—spoiler alert. That's not going to go well. He is not good at it naturally. But if you keep on reminding him that you're teammates and that he's in your family and that you're his family and that the two of you will have to struggle through it, but you'll get through it as long as you keep on remembering that you are teammates and family⁠—that, he can get.

If you're like, "Do less," yeah, neither of you are going to⁠—that's not realistic. But the only way for him to do more that makes money for the family, the only way for him to do more that supports you in being able to tend to some of the burnout in your system, to recover from the energy you've spent and also the heart-wrenching realities that you are still very present for⁠—and I'm not saying he's not present for them, but he's zooming through them. Your body's not letting you do that anymore. You're in it. You're feeling every fucking thing of it. And I'm sorry; does cussing offend you at all?

Alice:  No.

Jessica:            Do you have somebody close to you who's passed away who really doesn't like cussing?

Alice:              Oh, I don't know.

Jessica:            Every time I have cussed in talking to you, I hear someone being like, "Nope."

Alice:              (laughs) That's so funny.

Jessica:            (laughs)

Alice:              No. They probably don't like my potty mouth, then, either.

Jessica:            Okay. Well, I've noticed that you haven't cussed at all, and I was just like, "Well, maybe I'm offending you." But it's somebody. Okay. It's not like a guide. It's like a family member who's crossed over. But it's okay.

The Pluto opposition to Venus can be a scary transit for somebody who's in love and happy, because it confronts you with what isn't working. Pluto governs resentments and power struggles. And I don't think you want to ask him to compromise, and I don't think he wants to compromise.

Alice:              Yeah. I think that's true. It's hard to ask someone to compromise, especially in our community, where so many of us are partnered with someone who is called to do activism. And I'm a reader. I'm a book publisher in my work. So, in the middle of the height of the uprising here, I went to the biographies of Ida B. Wells and our forbearers who⁠—because they already told us what happened. They already told us what to do. They already wrote that book. And she actually says, "I don't want to write this book, but I was looking for a book to tell me what to do. And there weren't any, so I'm writing this book."

                        And so part of what I know is that it is his calling. It is his absolute calling to be this community-oriented entrepreneur. He's so much more than just a restaurant owner.

Jessica:            Yes.

Alice:              He is a soul who is called to be on the front line of social action and for Black and Brown and Queer people. And we need him. We need his cis male self out there, willing to be on the front line. But that's not my calling. It is not my calling. It's not what I'm supposed to do. I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to serve in that way anymore. I don't even know if I want to serve, period, anymore. I just want to create, and I just want to live.

Jessica:            Okay. I want to kind of put this idea forward for you to reflect on. If his calling is to serve, why can't he serve you? Why can't a part of his calling be to create the safety and the space for you to create and to explore the parts of yourself that got left unattended when you were doing other things?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            There will come a day where he will want that space as well, and you won't hesitate to create it as best you can.

Alice:              I won't.

Jessica:            No. But it's not the same for him. And I will say I've been doing readings for a long time, and sometimes when women are in their 20s, they come in and they're like, "Oh, I'm getting old. I've got to figure out what to do as I age." And I'm like, "Oh my God. No." But very broadly speaking, I have experienced that when cis men⁠—especially cis straight men⁠—age, it's like a lot of times, all of a sudden, they're 80 and they're like, "I think I'm getting old, and I maybe don't have as much energy available to me."

                        And your partner feels like he's that person. He doesn't think he's got any less gas in the tank now than he did 20 years ago. He's just like, "Of course, I can go forever." Whether or not that's true, it's his truth in this moment. It's where he's living from in this moment. Because that is just his experience of reality, he does not look at you and think, "Oh, there's less gas in your tank." He doesn't think, "Oh, you've changed where you have energy to give and where you need energy pumped back into you."

                        He doesn't understand it because he can't identify with it. And he really has identified with you so much for most of your relationship that this is putting you in a unique position with him where you have to explain it, and he's not going to get it, and then you're going to have to explain it again, and he's not going to get it. And it's not because he doesn't care about you. It's because he can't identify with this at all. He can't.

Alice:              Yeah. It's just the fabric of who he is, too. And we've both been doers, and at this point, we're approaching been together more years than not.

Jessica:            It's huge. And I think that you may have both not predicted how procreating would change you. It changes you. I mean, it changed you on a cellular level. It's changed your energy. It's changed your priorities, as it was meant to. But I think that it's taken you by surprise, and I don't think he's fully grasped it yet because you are really good at explaining things to him, and you haven't explained this to him yet in a way that he understands.

Alice:              I think I've made it just more about the household and needing to pay our bills in a more responsible way. And there's so much that we've done as entrepreneurs that, of course, conventional society would say is bananas. But now we need what we need, and our kids have needs, and they're not going to not have their needs. And the needs are only going to be more needs.

Jessica:            Yeah. Absolutely. So the way that you just articulated that is similar to how you articulated the question at the start of our conversation. But I want to offer you this little slice of pie, which is⁠—I'm sticking with pie. I don't know why. It's that you're talking about this without bringing your heart in. You're not acknowledging, "I feel tired. I feel like I want to sit at my kitchen table, and I want to play with herbs and let inspiration hit me and follow that inspiration because it makes me feel like I am getting to be my whole self. And I need to feel like my whole self because I don't."

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            He has not heard that.

Alice:              That part, I haven't said⁠—

Jessica:            No.

Alice:              ⁠—I think because I don't want to hear myself say it. But yeah.

Jessica:            That's it. That's it. That's it.

Alice:              I think that's true.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Alice:              And then on top of that, too, I can see doors are opening for me, for me to do that more, doors that never have opened for me in the past. And I haven't created the space to walk through the doors. And maybe I'm scapegoating him, too, right? The doors are opening for me, and I'm saying, "I could walk through that door, but that would mean he would have to support that."

Jessica:            I don't think you're scapegoating him. I think you're scared. I think you're scared because you don't want a problem with the person you love the most in the world⁠—I mean adult you love the most in the world. If he doesn't support you in walking through these doors, you will resent him because that will be fucking annoying and hurtful, right? I mean, that's true.

Alice:              Right.

Jessica:            And so you would resent him, and so you're scared because typically you don't have to worry that he's got your back. He's got your back. But you don't usually ask him to do shit he doesn't want to do.

Alice:              I'm usually on board for the shit that he wants to do.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. It's mutual.

Alice:              That's the thing.

Jessica:            It's mutual. But this is different. You are changing⁠. You have already changed. Because you're so in the middle of that change, you haven't communicated it to him, or you've communicated it to him in a structural way, like you've talked about it with me, instead of an emotional way. He has a Cancer Moon. If you talk about your feelings, he will listen. If you tell him what you think needs to be done, yeah, it's just another conversation.

Alice:              Yeah. That's true.

Jessica:            I would recommend sharing with him what I believe to be the truth, and you tell me if I'm wrong. But it's that you're scared. You're scared because you don't know how to fix these problems. You don't know how he can have your back without giving up something that you think is valuable, not just he thinks is valuable but that you think is valuable, that you do not know the path forward, and usually⁠—you have seven million planets in Virgo⁠—you can see a path forward. You're like, "Well, it might be like we have to pack heavy, but we can get there." But right now, you can't.

                        And I will say the reason why opportunities are opening up that feel like a yes is because you've lined up the pieces, because it's time. Because it's time. Pluto opposite Venus⁠—another thing this transit can do is give you such intense depth for creative projects so that it just transforms you, and those projects could be really powerful for the world, but it's not the point, because the point is creation.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            But that means this man who's so used to seeing you go, go, go, go, go will not be seeing you go, because creative process and writing and even playing with herbs⁠—it's a lot of internal⁠—it looks like you're not doing much from the outside. It's not your identity. So, again, Neptune⁠—it teaches us we are not what we do. So, even though you are in this state where you are called to do things⁠—you're not actually called to sit on the couch, which a lot of times, when people go through these Neptune transits, that's all they're called to do.

                        Whenever I see these transits, my go-to thinking is the Universe wants you to go to an ashram, someplace where you just garden and you pray, and somebody gives you meals at the same time every day, and it's quiet. That's what your system is ready for when you go through Neptune transits.

Alice:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Yeah. Change out pray for writing. It doesn't matter what it is. It's silence. It's contemplation. And it's somebody else taking care of the mundane reality stuff.

Alice:              Yes. I'm really ready for that. I'm really ready for that.

Jessica:            That's the piece. Okay. So being able to name to him, "These things that we are splitting 50/50 at this time⁠—I am so burdened by them. They are throwing me off. They are heavier to me than they were before. I don't have an explanation. I don't want it to be forever, but I want to be honest that that's how I'm feeling." He doesn't need to fix anything there, but he needs to know how you feel.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And that means you need to give yourself permission to feel feelings that don't have a fix, to feel feelings that will leave, maybe, confusion or change in the relationship because he might see a way forward that you don't.

Alice:              Yeah. He's good at that.

Jessica:            He's great at it. But he cannot perceive a solution to a problem that he's not even aware that exists.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And this is like a pattern for you that you're like, "Well, I'll do it all myself."

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            "I don't need your input." And sometimes you just take the long, hard way, and you end up getting their input anyways.

Alice:              And he actually really hates that.

Jessica:            I mean, yeah. Exactly. He would have to hate that if you would still want to be with him after 20 years, right? He would have to be somebody who's not encouraging you to do your self-destructive shit. So your daughter is the elder?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Say her full name.

Alice:              [redacted], and she is a fierce soul.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Is she in grade 1 now?

Alice:              Yep. She's in first grade, about to⁠—

Jessica:            First grade. Am I seeing this correctly that when she is done playing or done with a project or whatever it is, and she's ready to be alone, that she says, "Okay, I'm done," and she goes and she takes care of herself?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

Alice:              Yeah. Yeah. She's very good at that.

Jessica:            Great. So what I want to encourage you to do the next few times you watch her do this is notice how uncomplicated it is for her to acknowledge her energy has shifted. It's a beautiful thing about kids. That's all she's doing. She's saying, "My energy shifted."

Alice:              "I'm done."

Jessica:            Yeah. "I had a couple slices of pie. It was delicious. I don't need to eat the whole pie. I don't need to do anything one way or another. I ate as much as I wanted, and now I'm done."

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            And to be able to really seek inspiration from her⁠—because what you're scared of sharing with your husband is, "My energy has shifted. I don't have energy for this anymore." And the thing about him is he loves the truth.

Alice:              He does.

Jessica:            He loves the truth. He's a fan. And I don't think he's going to be able to figure out how to fix this, and I don't think he's going to have an easy time compromising. And it's still worth sharing with him because he is really, really, really your partner. You are allowed to say that you, like almost every other person in their early 40s, is all of a sudden not sure. You're not sure who you are. You're not sure what you want.

Things have changed, and you're really clear about a number of things, but around those things that you're clear about, yeah, no answers, just⁠—you're like, "Okay. I know I need to be creating space for this creative work. Is that forever? I don't know. What needs to move around it? Not sure"⁠—and that you can tell him, "I am so unnerved by myself feeling this way that articulating it to you⁠—it didn't even really occur to me to talk to you about it in a clearer way because I wanted to clean it up myself before I brought it to you."

                        He's got your back. He will strive to understand you. I'm seeing he will. And do you own that house that you're in?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. And am I seeing that it's kind of well situated in terms of the town you live in or city you live in, but it's a bit small?

Alice:              It's so small, Jessica.

Jessica:            Yeah. And you can't build on it, eh?

Alice:              It would be hard to do. I mean, the Virgo in me has a big plan for what we could be doing to scale up, and ⁠—

Jessica:            Literally to build up, to build a second floor?

Alice:              I would like to rent this out and just get a bigger house.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'm going to just look at this. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. So, if you got a bigger house, it wouldn't be in the center of town; it would be a little further out, correct?

Alice:              It would, and that's hard. That's hard.

Jessica:            Because he's already gone all the time, and so then he would be gone longer because he'd be further out.

Alice:              And we're right outside downtown. We're in a really cute, lovely neighborhood. But it's really hard to get a bigger house in the neighborhood we're in.

Jessica:            That's what I'm seeing. Can you say the street address of where you live?

Alice:              [redacted].

Jessica:            Great. So there is a backyard, yeah?

Alice:              Yep, barely.

Jessica:            And a little front yard?

Alice:              Yep, and a garage that we could convert into something.

Jessica:            Well, I mean, let's stick with this for just a minute because⁠—and you have a good interest rate on your home, eh?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's what I'm seeing. So there's⁠—lose some of the backyard; build out into it. Right?

Alice:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            I don't love that idea because everyone needs outdoor space, especially because you're in a place with cold, so you need spring and summer, okay? Then there's⁠—is there a basement?

Alice:              Yeah, and that's part of our challenge. So we're in this little cottagey house. Our downstairs is actually a full walk-out basement where our bedroom is. But the kids are upstairs on their own.

Jessica:            Okay. I see.

Alice:              And that's where our kitchen is. And it's built in the 1920s, so that means that the closets are small and stepping out stuff. So that's part of it.

Jessica:            It's not big enough.

Alice:              It's just not big enough.

Jessica:            So I'm going to throw into the mix this idea of, if the two of you were to talk about this, like really talk about this and talk about the finances⁠—so the finances of what it would cost you financially, but also psychologically, to live outside of the neighborhood you want to live in. What would it cost you to get today's interest rates versus the ones you have? Those are very real financial and economy-of-life kind of decisions to consider.

                        And the two of you may decide it's worth it to meet with an architect to see what it cost to build a master bedroom upstairs with a full bath and maybe a walk-in closet. And how would that change your lives? Because then the kids can have their rooms, and then eventually, your older kid could take the downstairs. And now you have a three-story place that is spacious, not overwhelmingly so. You could also theoretically, depending on your finances, have a balcony off the master bed or build a porch or a balcony off the back and, again, expand your space.

                        I want to encourage you to think about that, because it would mean taking out a loan. It would mean living in construction, potentially, for a period of time. But it would also in some ways potentially be more economically viable because you'd be still investing in the same community. You'd have your low interest rate on your house, which I'm assuming you've gotten a fair amount of the mortgage down. What would it cost? What would it cost? Why not find out?

                        That can't be the next step. The next step is really having a serious conversation between the two of you of, like, okay, if you even looked on real estate websites at what it would cost to try to buy something that size in your neighborhood, what are the interest rates right now⁠—really just having a little bit more information so that you can maybe make the decision, "Okay. We're going to try to build onto this place, and it's going to take us six months to get the finances together. And then it won't really happen for a year."

But at least then you'll know that by the time you have a teenage child, this is sorted; you know that you are building towards something instead of endlessly compromising something.

Alice:              Yeah. Yep. Yep. And we have talked a lot about that. We actually had a family meeting on Friday just about that. So you are⁠—

Jessica:            Excellent.

Alice:              ⁠—affirming that we're on the⁠—and actually, ultimately what he wants to do is have a place in his home country.

Jessica:            Okay.

Alice:              And that's been what he's been building for. So we did have this very pragmatic, unemotional family meeting⁠—

Jessica:            Great.

Alice:              ⁠—that was like, "Here's where we're at. Here's where we're not going to get to if we don't make some changes and shifts. What are we going to do?" because we want to have this place in the Caribbean. We want be able to have more space for our kids.

Jessica:            Okay.

Alice:              Please tell me you see our house in the Caribbean.

Jessica:            I am going to be a real fucking boner killer for this moment, and I'm going to say this.

Alice:              All right.

Jessica:            The two of you can totally have your house in the Caribbean, but if you prioritize that over your house in the city that you live in, it's at your expense⁠—you personally, not his, not the kids. Your expense. And I don't recommend it. That's where you go to get away from it all, but⁠—

Alice:              Yeah, that is where we go to get away from it all. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's what I'm seeing. And that's great. But you need a place at home that's safe and supportive, and you actually don't have that. I mean, it's safe, but it doesn't support you as an individual. It's like a catch-up place. Everything feels like catch-up here. And it's not working for you.

Alice:              It's not.

Jessica:            It's not harming the kids.

Alice:              No.

Jessica:            But it's definitely not working for you. I mean, I think, eventually, it could be a pain in the ass for the kids, but it's not at this point at all.

Alice:              No.

Jessica:            But it's really not what you want. It doesn't support you. And you deserve to be supported. And something about Virgo⁠—we always talk about Virgo service, Virgo service. Yes, Virgo is about service. But service is not just about what we do for other people. If you cannot service yourself, then we end up having this kind of hollowed container that doesn't⁠—it doesn't completely hold what we intend it to.

                        So this is part of what's happening with your burnout. Your system is saying, "I need you to take care of me." And you're waiting until there's calamity in order to heed that.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But that can't be it. This is not just for you, and this is not just for your ancestors, and this is not just for your kids. It's for all of it. You know what I mean? It's for all of it. So whatever motivates you to prioritize service to yourself, I'd encourage you to run with it because you do need to develop that motivation structure.

                        Even in this conversation, some of what's come up is just you being like, "Oh yeah. I didn't tell the love of my life, who wants to support me, that I'm feeling sad and bad and I'm feeling like I need support. Oops."

Alice:              It's true.

Jessica:            It didn't even occur to you because you're not⁠—

Alice:              It didn't.

Jessica:            No, I see that⁠—at all, because⁠—

Alice:              It wasn't like withholding.

Jessica:            No.

Alice:              It just didn't come to me to share it.

Jessica:            At all. It didn't come to you because you're not thinking, "I need to provide service for myself so that I can sustain my wellness and show up for other people and things." And so, because you're not even thinking about your own wellness, of course you're not thinking to ask your partner to support you as you are struggling with your wellness.

Alice:              Yeah. Preach.

Jessica:            Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So all to say I want you to have a home that you can be Neptune in the fourth house about. So, when you have Neptune in the fourth house, as you do in your birth chart, it means that your home needs to be a sanctuary. It needs to smell good. It needs to be cluttered sometimes and totally open others.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It needs to be a place that is outside of the world, and it is its own sanctuary, its own world. And your house is too small for that right now.

Alice:              It is.

Jessica:            So, in the realm of problems, you could have bigger problems. But actually, you don't need this problem. You have the skills and the resources and the ability to not have this problem if you prioritize it.

Alice:              Yes. Thank you. Amen.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yes. Good. Thank you. Yes. Yes. So then, with that, either you're looking at buying a new place or building onto the place you have. I'm not mad at the idea⁠—I feel like living through construction is kind of a nightmare, and it can kind of go sideways on you and all kinds of shit like that. But I will say I'm not mad at the idea of you building onto this place.

Alice:              Yeah. It's a special little neighborhood, and our kids really love it. And they are very safe in this community.

Jessica:            So are you. It is home. And I am seeing that⁠—hold on. So, if I'm in the kitchen, is there a weird room off of the kitchen that doesn't really make a lot of sense? What is that room?

Alice:              It's [redacted] bedroom.

Jessica:            Okay. And is that your youngest?

Alice:              Yeah. That's the baby.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. And is it kind of not a real room; it's just like a baby's room at this time?

Alice:              And it's fine for a two-year-old, but he doesn't have a closet. But you could, for sure, expand the kitchen into his room.

Jessica:            See, this is what I'm seeing, is you expand the kitchen so that it's big enough, and that's where the stairway goes up into the new floor, where you can have his bedroom and a master bed. There would be enough room up there. And then your daughter can keep her bedroom. I am not an architect. I don't want to, again, blow your mind with that information. I am obviously not an architect, and I am only looking at your house psychically. But what I am seeing is⁠—am I correct that it's kind of like a flat roof?

Alice:              It's a Craftsman. So it's⁠—

Jessica:            Okay. So it's not like a tight peak, but it's like⁠—

Alice:              No, it's not a tight peak. It's got a little peak.

Jessica:            Okay. So⁠—

Alice:              And there is an attic that's just⁠—we don't⁠—

Jessica:            But you could build up; put in a dormer. I mean, it looks like the foundation of this building is strong, and you could probably just build up and not have to worry about the foundation, in which case⁠—I mean, it wouldn't be cheap, but I don't know that it would be prohibitively expensive. It would be cheaper than buying a new house.

Alice:              Yeah, especially in this neighborhood, for sure.

Jessica:            In your neighborhood, it would be not possible to buy the kind of⁠—you couldn't upgrade. With this place, if you did that, your mortgage would become more expensive, ultimately, right? But your resale value would⁠—

Alice:              Is going to go way up.

Jessica:            Bananas, especially if you didn't eat up your backyard, because it looks like your backyard space is really special.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So I don't know. I feel like there's something in here to play with. And you might do the research and be like, "Jessica, you fucking asshole, don't put that idea in my head. It's too expensive." But it also might just work out for you guys. And I feel like between the two of you, you have so many contacts, not particularly in construction or architecture, but you have enough contacts that someone's gotta know someone, and you could get a good setup.

                        So it's worth playing with because⁠—I see. Okay. So part of why I'm communicating this idea to you is because it might be a good idea, but part of it is it's building on what you have so that it's something radically different, but it's not giving up what you've already got. And there's a meaningful metaphor in there for you.

Alice:              Yeah. Yeah, because we have worked really hard to get where we are.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Alice:              And we don't want to lose the house. I think that maybe is what you're seeing, that the house is very important. We are entrepreneurs, which means we didn't have, for a lot of our prime years, 401(k). I mean, we have one now, but we lost precious years building these companies. And we have them now for our employees, and we've invested everything back into the companies. And again, that's where the building on what we have makes sense because so much of what we have is what we built from scratch with our bare hands and a needle and a thread and duct tape.

Jessica:            Yeah. And there's something really interesting about⁠—is it going to be the greatest service to you to leave some of what you've built for something bigger or to turn what you have into something bigger? You know?

Alice:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Again, it's material, but it's also metaphor. And these are the questions to be exploring with your husband because you're a team⁠—also because between the two of you, you're really good at these kinds of explorations. Nobody isn't in love with the house. Nobody isn't in love with the spot. Everybody is happy here. So how can you expand it? Maybe you can't, but I feel like you can. Hold on. I feel like you can. You'd be creating a literal sanctuary that is what you want it to be. Am I bananas, or is that backyard kind of big?

Alice:              It's not small. But during COVID, we did buy a hot tub, which⁠—(laughs).

Jessica:            (laughs) [indiscernible 01:02:58] hot tub.

Alice:              We gotta go with a hot tub. So now it's a little bit more complicated back there.

Jessica:            I see.

Alice:              But we have a trampoline, and we've got a swing set.

Jessica:            Right. You've got the fun stuff.

Alice:              We could expand, for sure.

Jessica:            You could expand. The other thing I'm thinking⁠—and again, I'm spending a lot of money you don't have right now, but I'm also wondering⁠—I don't know⁠—could you get a little⁠—what do they call it, an ADU? Basically a room with a bathroom and a room and a tiny, little kitchen⁠—that situation?

Alice:              Mom has been wanting us to get into that garage and convert it into a mother-in-law suite for years. It's been like her⁠—

Jessica:            Honestly, I don't know if it's converting that garage, if it's getting⁠—the thing about those little ADUs is there's pros and cons, but one thing is you can get them prefabbed and popped in, which may end up being cheaper. You're stealing from yourself in your backyard.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            So I don't know. I am just being called to point to all the ways that you have all this abundance that you could just tweak. Instead of leaving this community that you love, that you've built, that's easy for work and easy for the kids and all these kinds of things, there are other options. And the only way this could come up is for us to talk about it. And so talking about the parts where you don't know the answer is a gift you give yourself. And sometimes it's an annoying gift because people say stupid shit, and you're like, "Why did I talk to them?" You're a Virgo. You know everything more than people, and I respect that. However, it is worth talking about. You know what I mean? It is worth talking through these details.

I want to just come back to center. I don't know that you're forever done with the life of organizing and service that you've had. But I know you're done with it now, and I want to really validate that, because I'm not sure if I did it emphatically. I want to really validate that. For the next two years, that's not what it's about. It is recovery time, tending to the body, tending to the psyche, tending to the heart, tending to the hearth.

Alice:  Yep.

Jessica:            And you deserve it. And you don't need an excuse why. I mean, you have one, but you don't need one. You don't need a reason why you deserve it or whatever. It is your inalienable right to want a good life and to take care of yourself. Oh shit. Okay. And then there's one last thing about it, which is why I said "shit." Do you have a history with depression at all?

Alice:              Not chronic. It shows up for me as anxiety, as overworking, overperforming, unforgiveness of self. I'm not the sleepy depression person. I'm the people-pleasing, beat-myself-up-internally/ruminating thoughts kind of anxiety depression.

Jessica:            Yeah. What about when you were 14 or 15?

Alice:              Oh. Yeah.

Jessica:            Depressed, like classic depression then?

Alice:              Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Because what I'm seeing you've done⁠—this is a heavy thing for me to bring up at the end, but I have to, so we're doing it. Okay. What I see you've done when you were in your later teens and as a young adult is you promised yourself you would never be depressed like you were at around 14, 15. And you decided to become a high-functioning adult. That was it. You are not an adult, but you were like, "I'm going to be a high-functioning adult." And you've been going ever since.

Alice:              Yeah. Nonstop.

Jessica:            Nonstop. And what this Neptune transit to your Saturn and Mercury are doing is they're bringing up anxiety that you might experience that depression again if you slow down enough.

Alice:              I didn't connect that. I think I've definitely not wanted to connect with those years. They were really, really hard years.

Jessica:            Yeah. I'm seeing that.

Alice:              Yeah. They were really, really hard years. And I think a big part of why it's hard is because there wasn't a lot of⁠—I moved quite a bit as a kid, like more than 15 times as a kid.

Jessica:            Oh my.

Alice:              So the control piece, the instability piece, the not having a home piece⁠—so that is why I work hard.

Jessica:            To create that stability for other people and for yourself.

Alice:              Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            So what I'm seeing is, if you are able to not just continue to give yourself the gift of being at home and being in your creative process and really working to revitalize and fortify yourself, but also to allow your husband, your family, to support you through that and to really be in your silence more than is your habit, you'll find that little 15-year-old that you were like, "No. Sit in the corner. Be quiet. I'm taking over," is still part of you and that there is a lot of your activity, like your being in activity and always forward-moving, forward-moving, is so that you don't have to ever feel depressed like that again, out of control like that again.

                        And so I imagine that as you give yourself the gift of tending to yourself, that some of those feelings are going to come up. And I don't mean depression like you experienced it then, but I mean when you engage beyond your coping skills that have been holding you up⁠—and this is a difficult thing about being in your 40s. And I think, again, hormonal stuff can really kick this into high gear. But our coping mechanisms need to evolve somewhere around 40 because we should at this point be able to apply new skills because we're not the same. And it's really hard for almost every single living human being. It is really hard.

                        Part of what I want to just validate is that you're doing the work and you're trusting and all of this good stuff, but part of doing the work is going to be reintegrating that depressed, out-of-control part because she exists in the silence, which is why you've avoided the silence so much.

Alice:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. She deserves empathy and kindness and patience and to mope and to do things that⁠—this part of you is teenager. So you know what that means, right? You've got a kid, not yet a teenager, but you know what that means. You might need to mope a little. And your Sun/Moon/Ascendant/Jupiter conjunction is like, "Moping is stupid. I'm never going to mope. There are so many things to be grateful for. There are so many things to do."

But I'm actually very pro-moping in healthy quantities, which is different for different people at different times. You're allowed to be exhausted. You're allowed for your nervous system to say, "I don't have anything left. I'm done," and for you to just sit and feel tired.

Alice:  Are you sure about that?

Jessica:            I'm positive. Yeah. Yeah. I'm positive. And I want to just validate that feeling, let's say, burnout and exhaustion doesn't mean that you will feel those feelings 100 percent of the time forevermore. It means that you're feeling your feelings. Feelings crash, and then they recede, and then they crash, and then they kind of hang out, and then they recede. Feelings come and go.

                        And so what you have done is incredibly high-functioning. You've done this really brilliant thing with your pain and your fear of depression, and you've made the world better, and you've made yourself better. But all our parts wait for us to be integrated, right?

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Now is actually a really good time. You've got a supportive partner. You've got a beautiful home that needs to get bigger, but still. You have great kids. There's all these things. And being able to feel sad or stuck or mopey or bad⁠—I would encourage you, from a triple Capricorn to a triple Virgo, set a timer on the clock. Give yourself 45 minutes where you're not allowed to think about the time. You're not allowed to think about anything other than how mopey and schmopey, or whatever it is, that you have a hard time feeling, trusting that there will be an alarm.

                        And then, at that alarm time, you either pull yourself up or you say, "I need another 45 minutes on the clock." And that's it. It's giving yourself space to feel what you feel. The structure of time, I think, would be helpful for you because your Mercury/Saturn conjunction says, "I don't want to lose control of my ability to take care of business." And so that part of you is inclined to feel that you'll get lost; you'll lose yourself in this.

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That didn't happen to you when you were a literal teen, and it's not going to happen to you now. But those are the feelings that you're running from, and therefore, they're the feelings that need your care and your support and your presence. So you might need two hours on the clock. You might need a full day. You're allowed to take a week. Whatever ends up being therapeutic for you is going to be the right answer because it's not a forever thing. It's⁠—the only way through it is through it.

                        And again, there's fear here that your husband knows and loves you to be different than that, and if he sees this part of you, if he has to really experience this part of you, that it will be a burden and that you'll lose him. These feelings that you have, these fears that you have, they're very, very real for you. And it doesn't matter whether or not they're true, in a way, because they feel really true.

                        You're a good friend. You know how to be a friend to this part. You know this stuff.

Alice:              I do know.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Alice:              And this is advice I give my writers.

Jessica:            I can tell that almost every word I've said, you've said to other people in this reading. It's both validating and annoying, I'm sure, for you. But it's⁠—what do they say? The shoemaker's children run around without shoes?

Alice:              It's so interesting because I was doing some writing yesterday, and that's the way spirit speaks to me is through writing and my ancestors. And they kept coming to me yesterday, and there was a person that kept saying, "You don't have to stay in that kitchen. You get to come out of the kitchen. You get to be served, too."

Jessica:            Yes.

Alice:              And I just don't know how to do that.

Jessica:            A great place to start⁠—because you don't know, and you're not going to figure it out. You're going to practice. That's it. It's a practice. So a great place to start is to share with your husband, who loves you and wants to support you and will listen to you if he understands that you're sharing something emotional⁠—

Alice:              Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—which makes him a very unique as a man, so congratulations. If he gets that you're sharing [crosstalk 01:13:33]⁠—

Alice:              He's very good with emotions.

Jessica:            Yeah. He will show up. He will show up. So, if you share with him, "I have talked to you about this topic, but I've not actually shared with you about this topic. Let me share with you what I'm going through"⁠—start there. Start there.

Alice:              That's good.

Jessica:            Yeah. You're not supposed figure this out in the next three months. It's two-year-long transits⁠, three two-year-long transits. I know. It's a little bit of a shit pile. But also, shit is very fertile. It's compost. It's good. This is the thing that we have to remember, is that the reason why a transit lasts two years is because it takes time to learn and integrate and shift, and then unlearn and then integrate and then shift, and then learn and then integrate and then shift. It takes time because emotions are slow. Your analysis, your ability to process and figure it out⁠—razor sharp, razor quick. Good, good, good. But none of this is intellectual. It's emotional.

Alice:              Yep. Yeah.

Jessica:            And so it's slow.

Alice:              And that's not my jam as much, but yeah. I'm ready for that now.

Jessica:            Listen. You might be somebody who's scared of flying, but once you know you have to be on a plane, you kind of suck it up and handle it, right? You're that kind of person.

Alice:              I do.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Alice:              Yep.

Jessica:            So let me tell you. It's two years, two years of process, two years of transformation and all the stuff we've been talking about. So you can do the work, or you can not do the work. But I'm really glad that we finally got to this.

Alice:              Yeah. Me, too. And you are just so dope, Jessica. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Jessica:            Thank you so much. It was wonderful meeting you.