Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Hierophant, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Hierophant:     Thank you for having me. So my question is a Tarot-based question, and maybe more extensively, it's a woo kind of question. I'm hoping that you can help me understand why I keep pulling the Hierophant card. It's been popping out at me constantly and continuously for at least a year now. It won't stop. What message is trying to come through, and can you identify the source of that message?

Jessica:            I love this question because I love the Tarot. And I have backup questions to your question. The first one is what deck are you using?

Hierophant:     Right now, I have the Art Deco deck.

Jessica:            Okay. And is that the only deck that you're having this experience with, or⁠—okay.

Hierophant:     Yes. No. For the Hierophant, yes. But I do use some other decks.

Jessica:            Okay. So you use other decks, but in those other decks, the Hierophant isn't jumping out at you?

Hierophant:     No.

Jessica:            And do you have a companion book to that deck?

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Hierophant:     I use a lot of companion books. I have an old Rider-Waite. I do online stuff, and then I have the Michelle Tea Tarot guide that I use a lot. And I have just the guides that come with them.

Jessica:            Okay. Listen. Do not be surprised when your triple Capricorn friend⁠—me, Jessica⁠—says I am a stickler for using a companion book because decks are different from each other, right? So all Tarot decks⁠—you know, the Hierophant is the Hierophant is the Hierophant. And also, I personally move between the Thoth and the Rider-Smith-Waite decks. And I use a lot of other decks as well, but that's just professionally.

                        And the Hierophant has meaningful differences between those decks. And I don't know the Art Deco deck. So I want to just, first of all, have that context. A lot of people will just kind of interchangeably use decks. I am not the one for that. So I'll just kind of give you that little curmudgeon because I wouldn't be me if I wasn't a curmudgeon.

                        And then I would say, is there a specific kind of question that you're asking the cards, or is this like the card is flying out of the deck? Is this in response to all the questions that you ask?

Hierophant:     Yeah. So the way that I do Tarot is to just shuffle and let them pop, and they speak to me. I get very similar⁠—I get the same cards over and over. I have my set of cards that kind of identify the issues I'm usually trying to ruminate on. There's no question⁠. I've tried to ask for supporting cards around it. I have a couple theories or I have a couple things that I go with, but then I think, "Well, I'm going with this, but it keeps coming. So maybe it's something else."

Jessica:            Okay.

Hierophant:     And so one of the things that I go with⁠—

Jessica:            Oh, wait. Don't give me your theory yet because I don't want it to influence my theory, just in case we have the same theory.

Hierophant:     Gotcha.

Jessica:            But hold on to it. Don't forget it, obviously. I have another question. So you shuffle the cards. You don't ask a specific question, although you have asked the cards to explain what the hell they mean about the Hierophant. So you have asked that question.

Hierophant:     Yeah, for a supportive card. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. For a supportive card. Okay. First thing I would say⁠—the way I like to use the cards and the way I like to teach it is, whenever there's something that either⁠—it's just breaking your brain⁠—I mean, this is kind of a brain breaker, right? It's just like it keeps on flying out at you. What I always like to do is get really grounded, tap into the feelings, the thoughts, all the things about this pattern that's showing up in your relationship to the cards, and then do a reading about it, like a full reading.

                        So, depending on what your relationship to the cards are, you might do a three-card reading. You might do a Celtic Cross. You could do any kind of reading you like, but to do a reading specifically on the brain-breaking data that the cards are giving you, because it is⁠—and I can tell by the way you use the cards you know that it's a relationship and it's a conversation. And so I just encourage you, first of all, to double down on that conversation and just ask the cards to unpack the whole topic. Does that make sense?

Hierophant:     It does. I don't feel like I've gotten consistent results with that.

Jessica:            Tell me more.

Hierophant:     So the spread I have before me is interesting. It came up yesterday, and then today when I was shuffling, the same three cards came out at me all at once again. So it was like the three cards I pulled, one after the other, as trying to get there. And⁠ [crosstalk]—

Jessica:            So wait. Let me just make sure I'm understanding. You were asking about, "What the hell is the Hierophant about?" Is that what you were asking?

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Keep going.

Hierophant:     I was trying to get it to clarify yesterday, and I got a Ten of Swords card. So grief, probably just the grief, which makes sense. And then, after that, I got an Ace of Pentacles and a Nine of Pentacles. And then those three cards⁠—the Hierophant, the Ace of Pentacles, and the Nine of Pentacles⁠—all popped out at me again today when I put them back in the deck and started shuffling, and I shuffled for a while. And they all came out as a group.

Jessica:            Can you show me those cards? It sounds like you're looking at them.

Hierophant:     So here it is.

Jessica:            Oh, I do know that. That's not the Aquarius deck? That's the Art Deco⁠—

Hierophant:     Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Sorry. Yes, you're right. It's the Aquarius deck.

Jessica:            Okay. It's the Aquarius deck. Okay. I was like, "That's not⁠—that's the Aquarius deck." It's a very pretty deck. I love that deck. Okay. And it is very Rider-Smith-Waitey but, I would say, has more progressive vibes. But okay. I'm going to just slow down. Slow down. So I'm having a conversation with you. Full disclosure, your birth chart is up. I'm not looking at it. I'm not paying attention to it. I'm just having an energy conversation with you.

                        And what I'm tapping into first and foremost is that you have these three lines of communication activated: your mind⁠—it's moving so fast⁠—your brain⁠—it is just like ski slopes. I don't know fast ones, but a fast ski slope. You're just going in lots of directions, and it's active. And then there's this emotional layer that I'm seeing that is also really active, and it's more ruminating. And then there's your body, and you're floating above and next to it. Does that make sense?

Hierophant:     It could. Yeah. I'm trying to get a lot of details out and a bit nervous.

Jessica:            Okay. Totally fair. Totally fair. And we're going to take our time, girl. We're going to unpack, take our time. Don't worry. That said, I want to just acknowledge that I'm seeing these layers, and it might be, again, like you said, because you're just like, "Okay, I just gotta get Jessica all the data." But I also think that you're really capable of moving⁠—have you been working with Tarot for many years?

Hierophant:     I would say so. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It looks like you're capable of moving really fast with the cards. But what I'm seeing⁠—and tell me if this is too woo, okay? But what I'm seeing is that a good practice for you would be to sit and receive because your analyzer is moving so fast, and then everything else is kind of trying to catch up. And it ends up putting you in a position where you have an idea or a narrative, and you're substantiating it instead of receiving it and exploring it.

Hierophant:     Uh-huh. One card at a time.

Jessica:            One card at a time, and sit with it is what I will say because straight out the gate, you say Ten of Swords and you say grief, and I say, "Maybe." I don't really see the Ten of Swords as a grief card, especially contextually, because if you're really just asking the cards, "Okay, what's up with this Hierophant madness in my life?" the first thing the cards are saying is, "You're overthinking it." The Ten of Swords is like, "You're thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking." The ten of a suit⁠—it's the end of the road, and it's like you've done all the thinking you can do on this topic. You've already analyzed it. There's no more analysis there.

                        So that's kind of the first thing, and then the Ace of Disks is like, "Get in your body." And then the Nine of Disks⁠—can I see what the Nine of Disks looks like in the Aquarian deck? She's beautiful. And is that a lady, as well, just like the Rider-Smith?

Hierophant:     Yeah. Yeah, it's a lady.

Jessica:            Okay. It's a lady. So, I mean, it's the Virgo card.

Hierophant:     Oh, good. I'm like a quadruple Virgo.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, if you went hardcore on the Virgo vibes. So, basically, the cards are saying you don't need to figure it out. You need to get grounded. And I know you've got more cards to share. But before⁠—it's like I have so many things I want to share with you about the Hierophant itself, but before we do that, I want to say the answer to the question of, "What the fuck, Hierophant?" is actually stop trying to figure it out. Stop analyzing, analyzing, analyzing, analyzing, and get in your body.

                        What the Nine of Pentacles, the Nine of Disks, card often means⁠—and certainly in, I think, this deck⁠—is it is time for you to soulfully but materially, because it's a disk card, reflect on what you value, what you care about, and what growth you're trying to nurture. Is this starting to make sense for what's going on in your life?

Hierophant:     Yeah. For sure. For sure.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Good. So that's the starting point. Now, I know you picked another three cards as well, correct?

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            And were you asking the same question?

Hierophant:     You know, the supporting cards⁠—I'm not sure how relevant they are. I mean, they're relevant, I think, to certain situational vibe that's with me, but the Hierophant comes in many ways. It usually comes by itself, and it's not like⁠—I've gotten the same cards as clarification before. And these cards weren't really clarification. They're just cards that I pulled after it.

Jessica:            So you weren't specifically asking, "Explain to me why the Hierophant came up just now," when you pulled these three?

Hierophant:     The one that I was specifically trying to get to clarify was the Ten of Swords that popped out.

Jessica:            Yeah. You're overthinking it. Okay. Good. That's a great answer. That's actually a really great answer. And I have more to share with you about why that's such a good answer in a minute. So these other cards—is there a clear context for what you were asking?

Hierophant:     I don't tend to ask questions. I tend to let them come to me and then kind of ruminate on the concept of the card.

Jessica:            Interesting.

Hierophant:     And I usually do it to get out of⁠—so I'm a remote worker, and I get kind of stuck in the quiet of everything a lot. And so, oftentimes, when I'm pulling them, I'm either just bored and I might as well, or I'm in maybe a little tizzy about something that's bothering me at work. And it's like, "Should I quit my job? Should I move forward?"⁠—that kind of thing.

Jessica:            Okay. So those are your questions. Those are hard questions.

Hierophant:     Yeah, and overall just kind of like a midlife thing. I'm settled in a place that I really like. It's not my home. As I told you, I've moved around a lot. It is the home that I want to be, and we're trying to establish that, my husband and I. And I feel like it's just⁠—is it time for a move on to something, or should I stay in the safety zone or with what works and kind of move through that? Just, like, midlife disenchantment with everything.

Jessica:            Okay. So there's a lot of layers here. So one layer is if you don't ask a specific question of the Tarot, you will not get a clear answer. That is just an easy rule to apply. It sounds like you're flip-flopping between asking really intense, predictive questions⁠—"Should I quit my job?" That's a biggie. And you're flipping between that and kind of just letting the cards just talk to you. And I would actually encourage you, if you're going to⁠—and listen. You do whatever the fuck you want, obviously. Do what works for you. Also, since we're having this conversation, I will share doing that kind of free-form just let the cards speak to you, I think, is a great practice as a daily meditation, like first thing in the morning.

                        But if you do it when you're all chaotic in your feels, you're going to get chaotic answers. And in my experience, the cards will sometimes just throw fucking shit at you. If you keep on asking the same question over and over again⁠—I don't know if you've ever experienced it⁠—the answers get worse and worse.

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            The cards are like, "Stop it." And so I would encourage you to, first of all, maybe shift the timing of the wide-open-door question to when you're actually really grounded and before you're in the middle of things. I bet you'll get a lot more clarity from doing that.

                        And then the other thing is I'm going to give you another tweak about how you ask questions, which⁠—around, like, "Oh, should I move? Should I stay with this job?"⁠—those kinds of questions. I would encourage you to instead sit with the cards. Shuffle them. Focus on what you're thinking and what you're feeling. And ask them for feedback on your thoughts and feelings, not feedback on your plans and questions. Does that make sense, why I would recommend the difference?

Hierophant:     It does, and I feel like that kind of thing happens often. I feel like, often, when I pull cards, they are a reflection of what I'm feeling, and it's mirroring that back to me. And I understand that when I pulled them, that that's what that is and that I'm feeling a certain way, and then it becomes therapy. And it's like, "This is just how you're feeling right now, and you can move through this," and⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            Totally. And also, the way my understanding of how all this stuff works is that the more clarity you have about what you're asking and why, the easier it gets for the cards to read you and you to read the cards. And so, if you, let's say, are clear, like, "I'm just fucking in a mood and I need to have this conversation with my cards right now," and they give you whatever answer, later on that same day, when you're not feeling as activated, you can return and be like, "Okay. Based on that information"⁠—maybe leave your cards out, right? And then, "Based on that information, can I get advice? Can you give me next steps?"

                        And that's when you start to build on the readings in a way that really supports your spiritual and mental and emotional health instead of serves as a⁠—alternating between confusing and inspiring tool. This will just make it a lot more grounded and useful. And of course, I am a Capricorn, so I'm like, "Let's make it useful." But that is my tip with that. Does that feel like that is workable for you?

Hierophant:     Yeah. I do leave them out. I ruminate and return to them. I feel like my main confusion is "Where does this come from?" because I do get these same cards over and over again. They do speak to what I'm kind of thinking on, even if I'm not asking a specific question. And I think, a long time ago, I said, "The rule is these aren't predictive tools. This is just something that is⁠—this is how you feel, or this is something to think about." Nothing's like⁠—you know, the Nine of Pentacles or the wish card isn't like you get a wish. You know?

Jessica:            What's the wish card?

Hierophant:     The Nine of Cups, I believe.

Jessica:            Oh. See, I feel like that's an internet thing. There's no such thing as a wish card. All the cards have⁠—you could read a full chapter of a book on each card. And I know this is really tempting with the fucking internet, and I called it the fucking internet, but with just giving these quick⁠—there's no love card, even the card that's called Love. It's not that simple, right?

But let me jump in here, a little bit here, because I have a really strong feeling about what the Hierophant is jumping up in your life about and for. And it's because that card is telling you it's time for you to make decisions and for those decisions to not be a reflection of the spirituality, the values, the ethos that you were raised in, but instead to be a reflection on you having reflected on those things and reflected on your values here and now.

So the Hierophant⁠—I don't know what it looks like in the deck you use, but it's like that papal figure in the Rider-Smith-Waite deck with the fingers like the peace sign. I don't think it's supposed to be a peace sign, but I always see it as a peace sign. And I find it always very helpful when the Hierophant has those two fingers up because it reminds you instantly it's like a decision between this or that.

And the Hierophant is a very spiritual card, and it's also a very material card. It's about making decisions in the material world that have effects on your material reality. So no big surprise when you're like, "I'm trying to decide to move, to stay, to go with this job," all these kinds of deep midlife-crisisy things, right? And what the card is trying to get you to do is to get aligned, to have your values and your spirituality aligned so that you have clarity about the action to take.

And the thing that I think is really tricky about the Hierophant card is it does⁠—when it comes up, and especially if it's coming up like you're experiencing it where it's like⁠—how did you⁠—you gave your question the best title. What was it? It was like being chased by the Hierophant or something like that.

Hierophant:     Oh, Hierophant Harassment.

Jessica:            Hierophant Harassment. I was like, "That is so funny." The harassing nature of this Hierophant for you is not just asking you to make decisions about your life, but it's kind of demanding that you reflect on the material world you find yourself in, which is, I think, very midlife-crisisy because it's like you're not yet old, but you're sure as hell not young. It's that crisis of, "I've got to do it now if I'm going to do it. But do I want to do it, and what is it?" It's hard work.

                        The Hierophant is specifically an earth card, and in the Tarot, this is not about analysis. So that's why the cards were Ten of Swords-ing you when you were like, "What the hell is this about?" because it's telling you⁠—it's like, "You've done all the analyzing that you can do, and now you're just thinking in circles and ruminating instead of grounding into and aligning with your values, acknowledging what you've outgrown from society, from your past, from your childhood, whatever it may be, and making decisions. And if this has been going on for a year, then you've probably been really struggling with, "What do I do?" for at least a year.

Hierophant:     I mean, I think that I've never heard that take on the Hierophant. I've just mostly been the conformity aspect of it or the spiritual aspect of it, which gets me in a bind because I'm not sure what that would mean for me.

Jessica:            That's the problem. So many interpretations of the Tarot⁠—they're just⁠—they're rigid. And so you're just like, "I'm not in a religious [crosstalk]."

Hierophant:     And this is probably the most rigid card in the deck. And that's why it baffles me so much, because it's like the least⁠—anything that I can associate with.

Jessica:            I can get that. It's like this card that if you just read the descriptions, that if you don't do deep diving stuff, I feel like this card is⁠—it comes across as, "Consider your father. Consider your church." And you're just like, "What? How does that relate to me at all?" And the thing is it's a deeply Venusian deck. And there's a lot of problems with the Thoth deck, the Aleister Crowley Thoth deck, but the thing I absolutely adore about the deck and the reason why I use it with my work the most is because it has astrology symbols on every card, or just about every card. So it's a very astrological deck.

                        And I regard the Hierophant as very deeply Venusian. If you take that context, then it gives you that values concept. So, back in the day when the Rider-Smith-Waite deck was created, it was all puritanical, very Christian puritanical values. And so the idea of connecting to one's value system⁠—it related back to the church. And that idea of reflecting back on the kind of mores that one was raised with in the home⁠—again, it went back to the church. And this is just cultural⁠—whatever⁠—shit with that deck, which is why I don't⁠—I think it's the best deck to learn on, but I don't love it. It's so uptight.

                        But anyways, I digress. So, if we kind of pull it back into a kind of opening the Hierophant up in modern context, it's really about recognizing that you're in a place in your life where you get to acknowledge and own where you're from and also acknowledge and own where you're at, and trust and believe that you get to make decisions now⁠—in fact, you're supposed to make decisions now⁠—about what you want to do because, again, it's an earth card.

                        So, if you think of the balance or adjustment card⁠—do you know that Major Arcana card? I don't know what it's called in your deck.

Hierophant:     Is it Justice?

Jessica:            Yes, Justice.

Hierophant:     Oh. Okay.

Jessica:            The Justice card. There you go. The Justice card is one of those cards that I find very uptight and off-putting in the Rider-Smith-Waite, the Aquarian deck. I don't like it as much. In the Thoth deck, it's got a very different vibe. But it is also a very Venusian card, but it's the air side of Venus. So it's about justice. It's about the scales of justice and how they balance, and it's also about living in accord with what is right and just. It's your values.

But it's in a more conceptual air way. It's ideas. You're not pulling that card. You're pulling Hierophant, right? You're pulling, "It's time to do something." And when that card is harassing you, I am really curious about what is going on in that day or in that moment where it feels like it has to harass you because, basically, what the Hierophant is doing is chasing you, chasing you down the street all the time saying, "Get aligned with your values so you can make a decision that's right for you now."

Hierophant:     Everything you're saying definitely⁠—that take on it definitely speaks to me. I've been struggling for years now with whether I should move on to something new, and I think constantly about⁠—I have a cool job. I don't have a corporate job. I have a good job that my liberal arts education afforded me, and I'm really happy and lucky to have it. I just⁠—I've been there a long time, and there are certain ceilings that are there that aren't moving and aren't going to.

                        And the frustrations that I experience often push me to wonder if I should try something new. And then, when I have that conversation, it's, "Well, how can I sustain the life that I've created financially easily and have something that aligns with my values?" If I had it my way, I'd be running an animal rescue or something like that. I would be doing something⁠—marine biology, something useful. But I don't have that degree. And I don't want to just go out and work for an agency or whatever else would be out there.

                        So then I tell myself I have to calm down and just kind of make peace with that and stay put in the safety zone and where I do do meaningful work. So that's generally what's going on. And when I'm doing that, in that state, the way that I have interpreted it is he points upward with those⁠—you know, the fingers. I have a picture of my mother and my Oma, my German grandmother, right above my desk. And sometimes I just think it means, "We're here to support you. Keep your head out of the gutter. Keep your head out of the gutter. Don't go into a negative spiral. Keep your head out of the gutter and just do your work and move forward." That's just one of the ways.

Jessica:            That's a very⁠—I mean, you said German grandmother, right?

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's a very culturally normative hot take. You're just like, "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Suck it up and keep on going," right?

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Listen. Different people use the Tarot in different ways, and it's possible that that's what's happening. As a Tarot reader, I think that Tarot cards⁠—just like astrology, they're a tool. But different than astrology, it's much more of an intuitive tool. You have to learn what the cards mean because the more you know, the more you know. But I think that our guidance, our guides, can communicate with us directly through the cards.

                        And so I'm inclined to believe that the call is coming from inside the house, that you are giving yourself the message of the Hierophant. You're harassing yourself, Hierophant, with the Hierophant. That's my take. I mean, it's absolutely possible that this is somebody who's crossed over who's giving you this message. But from my interpretation of the Hierophant, the message is not, "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps." No. And one could read that card that way. There are different ways of interpreting that card.

                        To me, it's⁠—and this is where I want us to take the conversation. It's, "You have choices." There's door number 1, which is stay where you are. And if you take that door, what I would suggest you need to do is get really clear about what you're grateful for, what's working for you, and choose it again. Really choose it again. Then, alongside that, choose to start to identify what you need to do or to cultivate in your life in addition to your job so you don't continue to feel this way, because you don't want to continue to feel this way. And if the Hierophant is harassing you, you're not supposed to feel this way.

Hierophant:     Right.

Jessica:            So that's one choice. Door number 2 is choose another path. Choose another job. And if you choose another job, then there's many ways of doing that, many different jobs, many different options. All of them take labor and risk. So there's that. And then there's number 3, which is do what you're doing, which is everything and nothing. It's a little bit of self-torture because you're doing a lot of work on yourself, and you are contemplating, and you are exploring. And then, also, you're telling yourself, "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Suck it up. Just make this work." You're doing it all to yourself, and it's not helping you to grow to what comes next.

                        So I'm going to have you say your full name out loud.

Hierophant:     [redacted].

Jessica:            And what's your mom's last name?

Hierophant:     [redacted].

Jessica:            Better. Thank you. You said something about moving. Do you want to move?

Hierophant:     No. I don't want to move. I just want, maybe, a new job.

Jessica:            Okay. So then the real question is not about where you live. It's just about the job.

Hierophant:     Newness. Yeah, something more worthwhile, something, maybe, I represent myself better at⁠—I don't know⁠—that would feel more engaging overall.

Jessica:            Is it that you don't like your field of what you're doing, and you want to evolve beyond it?

Hierophant:     No. I like what I do, but it's a very academic field, and I'm not that serious of a person. I am lucky to have what I have. I do a good job at it. It's just that where I work specifically is not a very professional environment, and there's not a lot of manager support to get people on board. And I have one of those jobs where what I do kind of depends on being able to get others to engage.

Jessica:            Are you saying that there's things about your job that you don't like?

Hierophant:     What I don't like is that it's a little bit of a free-range environment where there's not a lot of professional standards. And that's hard.

Jessica:            Okay. So I am aware⁠—of course, I did pull up your chart. You are a double Virgo. You got Mercury, Venus, Sun, and Rising all in Virgo⁠—a lot of Virgo. And I am asking you questions that are little bit like yes and no, and you're giving me a lot of details but not answering yes or no. I just am noticing this.

Hierophant:     Okay.

Jessica:            Let me figure out what it is. Do you want me to help you try to figure out the answer to the question about the job, or do you want to stay focused more on the Hierophant?

Hierophant:     I kind of want to focus more on the meaning of the Hierophant, to just kind of⁠—as a symbol or a message, to kind of understand what I can do with that because I can go get a job. I've applied for several. I mean, that's a harder⁠—it's a trickier and trickier thing. As the world turns, it gets more and more complicated, and you get older and all the things.

                        And that's all stuff⁠—I can figure it out on my own. I have⁠—I put myself out there. It's more just like, "Is that really what the Hierophant is trying to tell me?" because, as you know, the way that I pull cards is pretty vague and open.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Hierophant:     It's pretty vague, and it's just like, "Tell me something," and then that card comes up. One of the other theories, if you'd like to hear it, is that⁠—you talk about guides. I don't know if "spirit entity" is the right thing to say. All I know is that I consistently get the same cards, and they seem to very⁠—this deck specifically very directly speaks to me.

                        Sometimes, when I think about it as an inner guide or a spirit guide, whatever the energy that kind of dictates what cards pop out is like⁠—sometimes they can represent a specific person. And so, when I think of it that way, sometimes I think, well, my father-in-law, who passed away recently, was a Lutheran minister. And maybe this card is just him as representation, and he's trying to say something.

Jessica:            But didn't you start pulling it before he passed?

Hierophant:     No.

Jessica:            Oh, it was after.

Hierophant:     He passed away right after COVID started, so a few years ago.

Jessica:            Oh, several years ago now. Yeah.

Hierophant:     Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. I mean, it's interesting. I can take a peek in a moment, but I will say that I never think that a dead person is communicating through Tarot, personally. I'm a medium, so why would the dead communicate with me through the Tarot? Because they can just talk to me, and I hear them.

It is certainly possible, but if you accept that the Tarot are its own kind of fucking glorious magic⁠—and there are so many different ways we can think about that magic or hold that magic or believe that it comes from, but that there is something really magical about the cards⁠—then to me, it's kind of like⁠—and this might be annoying to a Virgo, but the sky is blue because it's blue is kind of my answer to that, because seeking, "Where does this come from?" takes us off track of what's important about the cards, which is you're getting consistent divine intervention. And that divine intervention is giving you, from my perspective as a Tarot reader, a very clear, literal, and consistent message that completely matches with the circumstances of your life, which is you have decisions to make, and they need to be based on your values. And they need to be materially sustainable.

                        It's the Hierophant. It's like this papal figure, as you named, right? So it's kind of like reflecting on your background and how it's influencing you, like that kind of German "pull yourself up by the bootstraps." How much is that influencing you, and do you want to continue to have it influence you? Do you believe⁠—and I earnestly don't think⁠—I don't have an opinion. But do you believe that it's actually the most supportive, mature, adult thing for you to be thinking right now? Or is that a familial pattern and kind of norm that you don't resonate with anymore and that you want to grow out of?

                        The Hierophant is asking you to reflect on things like that, to reflect on where you come from. And we want to keep in mind that the Hierophant is not asking you to analyze and make a decision. It's a spiritual leader. It wants you to meditate, take long periods of time to get in your body and sit with and reflect on because, even as I just said what I said about making that decision, I saw your little brain go off in a direction about, "Oh, okay. Well, this is my answer." And so this is back to the ski slopes of your mind. You're just going swoosh, swoosh. You're fast.

                        But the Hierophant is about getting in the body and getting meditative and getting slow, not finding the answer, but getting into alignment.

Hierophant:     When you say the fast thing⁠—I am a fast person. If I go to the gym, I want to be on a machine with my headphones going like this. I don't want to be in the yoga room.

Jessica:            Totally. That tracks with this whole conversation. Yes.

Hierophant:     I have a lot of go-go juice in me at any given moment. But the way that you're talking about it with that getting in sync with the values, that's helpful. It wasn't that interpretation I would have ever thought of, and that does make sense because I do have a lot of weird, I think, issues around having a certain amount of success, having come from a very poor upbringing and kind of getting to a certain place and having a lot of, maybe, imposter syndrome around that and confidence to go out in the world and do more. And I always question⁠—the values thing is always there. It's like, "Well, can I find a job that does support my values and isn't just working because it's more money and I can maybe buy a house one day?" You know what I mean?

Jessica:            Yeah. Of course. The Hierophant is telling you to do the work of getting in alignment because the answer lives there. It is specifically telling you that you are not to seek the answer, but instead to seek the alignment, because the answer is inevitable from alignment. But as you're experiencing, there's no answers from the state of being out of alignment in that kind of⁠—you know, the Hierophant, it's⁠—I think a lot of traditional interpretations⁠—I'm guessing you've read this⁠—is like, "You might be⁠—this card may"⁠—yeah, I think you referenced this, like, "This card may represent a teacher or somebody who's going to show you the way."

                        And in my experience, the Tarot rarely works like that. It rarely works like a card represents a teacher coming into your life⁠—every once in a while, but again, that's an old-school way of reading. If we kind of tweak the way that the level of autonomy and independence we have in our current society, in our current lives⁠—it's about recognizing that you have so many people that you can learn from and that you have learned from.

                        Again, if you think about back in the day when these cards were created, the only people you ever had any contact with are the people that you were physically in proximity to, and that was not a lot of people. That was wherever your horse would take you, if you were lucky. If we kind of keep in context how fucking old this tool is, we've gotta tweak and expand how we hold the interpretations that you're going to read over and over again about a teacher because the truth is you could be watching a music video on YouTube, and then the next thing that shows up is incels and it ruins your life, or it can be⁠—we're allowed to be realistic⁠—or it can be some fucking TED Talk where you're just like, "Oh my God. That just shifted something for me, and I wasn't even planning on it."

                        Teachers come in so many ways because we have access to so many more minds and bodies and lives than we ever have. And so it may be that you have access to the guidance of your ancestors, of lost loved ones, and you want their guidance. And it may be that you don't want their guidance. And both are okay. The Hierophant is about you making a choice and you giving yourself permission and authority in your own life to make that choice with acknowledgment of who comes before you and what came before this moment.

                        In this way, the Hierophant is such a beautiful but challenging card because it's not just "make a choice." It's not just "learn a lesson." It's "acknowledge where you come from and where you are, and make choices that are in respect to those sometimes very divergent things," like coming from no money and then creating a great deal of abundance and being like, "And now I want more abundance." It's kind of like, "What? Who am I? How do I do that?"

                        And if you are in alignment, you may find that it just shifts everything on its own. And it may not. It might not. You know? I'm seeing just a lot of impatience. And I'm not seeing that on your face. You have a very calm face. But I'm seeing, energetically, just a lot of impatience in your process to be like, "Okay. I sat in alignment. Okay. I figured the things. Where is it? Where is it?"

                        I'm going to throw some cards for you.

Hierophant:     Okay.

Jessica:            Oh, and I should share what I pulled. Ten of Cups, Nine of Swords⁠—

Hierophant:     Okay.

Jessica:            ⁠—and the Knight of Wands.

Hierophant:     Yeah. Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what these cards are saying is it's like you get emotionally in. You get emotionally in, and then your mind goes [makes sound] all over the place. And then you're like, "Okay. I gotta chase my mind down, and then I'm going to figure it out." So there's this way that I want to acknowledge it is not often when I'm reading somebody and I can see mental, emotional, physical layers like a Neapolitan ice cream where it's like vanilla, chocolate, strawberry. I'm seeing these layers so established. And I mean, you clearly do a lot of work on yourself, I'm guessing for years.

Hierophant:     I mean, I do a lot of self-care.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what we're talking about. That's work; is it not? It's work.

Hierophant:     Yeah, I hope so.

Jessica:            It looks like it, because I'm seeing these clear layers, but they're clear layers. It's not a vanilla-chocolate swirl. It's clear layers. It's that Virgonian organization you've got going here. And so it came up in the cards again. Cups, Swords, Wands⁠—that's what came up. I only threw three cards. There was only room for the three.

                        I think that if you noticed when your mind came online⁠—a.k.a. noticed when the swords got activated⁠—and made a conscious decision⁠—obviously not while you're at work. We're talking about when you're doing your self-work, when you're trying to sit with your shit and make meaningful choices.

                        If you notice the swords getting online and you notice your thoughts getting online, and then you make the decision to breathe back into your feelings⁠—so that's sensations. So that's fire or staves. Or it's emotions; that's cups or water. So, if you tap back into the sensations, what's going to happen is you're going to be uncomfortable. You're going to be very uncomfortable. There's a reason why you don't do that, right?

So you're going to be uncomfortable. But if you can sit with that discomfort, on the other side of it is information you don't have yet. And it's only information that you can get by sitting with it. And from one very impatient earth sign to another, that sucks, but it also works. And as slow as it feels, it's actually the quickest way through, to find the alignment or the answer or whatever.

Hierophant:     Well, I feel like impatience is more just bafflement. But you are correct. I am an impatient person. [crosstalk].

Jessica:            So what do you mean by, "Impatience is just bafflement"? What does that mean?

Hierophant:     With the Hierophant. I don't feel impatient about⁠—I guess you could put it that way. It would apply. But I don't necessarily feel like, "I'm going to strangle you, Hierophant. Tell me." It's just⁠—more just baffled and just more⁠—so what you said does help bring a certain amount of clarity about it and how to look at it.

Jessica:            What I was trying to say is not⁠—this is not about the Hierophant. This is about you. So none of this is about your thoughts, feelings, or actions about the Tarot card. This is about⁠—because the whole point of the Tarot⁠—I mean, you said earlier it's not a way to predict. I've predicted hella shit through the Tarot. I think we can predict with the Tarot. It's just a question of how you're using the cards. The way you're using them may be not to predict, but that doesn't mean it's not predicting things, and it doesn't mean that it can't predict things.

                        That said, the cards are telling you what to do. And so, if we now ignore the cards, the concept of the cards, and we come back to what I'm trying to get at here is that you're at a crossroads in your life, and when contemplating this crossroads⁠—which I think you do all the time, right? But when you're contemplating these crossroads and you're not at work and you're not in a conversation with somebody⁠—you can actually be with yourself around it⁠—those steps that I named and the impatience, that's what I was referring to.

It's like, how do you get to a place in your own evolution and in your own life where the Hierophant stops harassing you? This is how. It's to acknowledge that part of you that has a hard time sitting with your feelings and your sensations and goes straight up to a different idea, a different analysis, a different thought⁠—"How do I figure it out? What should I decide? What should I choose? What should I do?"⁠—those kinds of restless, impatient thoughts. And stay with the feelings that are motivating you to have the thoughts. Does that make sense?

Hierophant:     Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a certain amount of ADD happening. I acknowledge that. I do practice sitting with things and just feeling it and letting it move through me. I don't know that I get clarity out of doing it. I feel like⁠—you know, you learn how to do these things. You learn how to⁠—you have tools to kind of deal with emotional patterns or thought patterns. And then it does get better progressively over time, and you recover easier and can get through it easier. So, in that way, I do understand what you're saying.

Jessica:            Okay. Let's take a pause here. I feel like I'm answering the question you're technically asking me, but I'm not sure if⁠—it feels like I'm answering the question. I can't tell if you want to be asking a different question. Is there something scratching at your brain? Is there something that I haven't actually answered yet that you would like to ask me about?

Hierophant:     One of the things sitting with thoughts and meditating⁠—I thought maybe perhaps⁠—there's a Buddhism center. Is it telling me I should actually sit and do some kind of reflective practice, and that will be helpful just as a self-care routine?

Jessica:            I mean, I don't think the Hierophant is saying, "You should do this," but I think if that's a tool that resonates with you, it's certainly in alignment with the Hierophant. Do you know what I mean?

Hierophant:     Yeah. I'm just looking at him. I don't⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Hierophant:     But it sounds like your read is that this is kind of, "Make a decision and move forward."

Jessica:            I'm scared to agree with that, only because, no, it's not just make a decision. It's reflect⁠—it's all the stuff I keep on saying with reflect on where you come from. Reflect on what your values are. Get in alignment. And then clarity will emerge for you around what to do next. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying make a decision, because you've been looking at the Hierophant and thinking, "I'm supposed to make a decision," for the past year, right? That's not helping you.

                        And so my hope is that as I've kind of unpacked this present for you little bit more and been like, "Look. There's this, and there's that, and there's this, and there's that"⁠—that's like more of an instruction manual of how to work with those energies.

Hierophant:     This actually maybe is coming a little full circle for me on my end because when I say he's represented, perhaps, "Keep your head out of the gutter," it's an attitude adjustment kind of a card is how I've done it. And when you say that it's an "Align yourself with your values"⁠—and that's kind of an attitude adjustment. So, in a way, what you're saying is a big part of one of the ways I've been feeling about it is that this is kind of more a card about me mentally being able to not go down the rabbit hole or spiral and reflect more heavily or just sit with it and let it pass. It's alarming. It's alarming it's coming up that often for me to have to do that, if that's what the direction is.

Jessica:            And why is it alarming? I should say⁠—

Hierophant:     It's so often. It's like every other day.

Jessica:            Yeah. That's cool. I mean, with the Tarot, in my experience, this happens to a lot of people. And there will be years of your life where that kind of thing just doesn't happen, and then there's years of your life where every time you throw a reading, there's, like⁠—whatever⁠—something that always comes up. So this is part of why when I read your question of Hierophant Harassment, I was like, "Oh, I've been there"⁠—not specifically with that card. But I think I should have maybe led with that by saying this is not an uncommon thing, to be harassed by a card.

                        And I think a lot of people are going to be able to identify maybe not specifically with the Hierophant, but a lot of people are going to be able to identify with having a card be like, "Hello. Embody me. Learn me. Do me." The card will keep on coming up because it wants you to pay attention to it and its lessons in a different way than you are doing currently, right? Because it'll stop coming up when⁠—you know, lesson complete.

                        And I guess that's why I was giving you these kinds of instructional things, because I'm like, well, how can you get the card to stop harassing you? And I think it's about⁠—maybe it's keep your head out of the gutter. I mean, I wouldn't have said it that way, but if that's what resonates, then that's the play, right? The key is to make sure that it's not just your head you're adjusting because your head needs to be decentered in this process if we are listening to the Hierophant. Again, it's not the Justice card; it's the Hierophant. The Justice card is more like mind and spirit. This is more earthy. It's material. It's your values. It's what you do. It's your past. It's the institutions and cultures that you're from. It's that material thing, so it's less of an air card, if that makes sense, less of a swords card.

Hierophant:     I have to think about that a little bit more just because I really just⁠—every time I⁠—conformity, institution of religion⁠—I don't know, things that I just can't identify with. But again, that is helpful, the way of looking at it and thinking on it.

Jessica:            And again, with Tarot, I would just want to kind of clarify, whenever you see something referring to religion, it's referring to culture because historically, the reference to religion is the reference to your community and your culture. That's what it means. And again, this is where it gets very hard when using books. I get very picky with my books and stuff like that because sometimes I read it, and I'm like, "This makes literally no sense." But then I remember to pull back and to be like, "Okay. Religion doesn't actually mean religion." It means morality, community, culture.

And you have that. Whether we look at your childhood, we look at your adult years⁠—because you are a late 40s person, so you've had lots of adult years. Wherever we look, we can see morality. We can see choice. We can see culture. We can see community. We can see your relationship to capitalism. All of that is in the mix when a card is referring to the cultural component of religion. So, again, put that little note on the Tarot folder box of your mind, of your Virgo mind.

Hierophant:     I definitely have a newer perspective, and it makes a lot of sense to me now that this is more about my journey or my past and my continued journey and values and not telling me that I need to go to church on Sunday or be part of the larger capitalist system or whatever it is.

Jessica:            No, it is not. I am so glad to clear that up.

Hierophant:     Yeah. So that is super helpful.

Jessica:            Good. I'm glad. And is there anything else that you would want to ask as we kind of close out our Hierophant Harassment convention?

Hierophant:     No. Well, not about the Hierophant. My chart is right there, and that's tempting to me. Is there anything in my chart that says anything significant that would relate to anything that I'm talking about?

Jessica:            So, as I look at your birth chart, everything we talked about, we could have had that exact same conversation in astrology terms instead of Tarot terms.

Hierophant:     Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Identical. I mean, you've got a T-square to Saturn in your birth chart between Jupiter, Uranus, and Saturn. So struggling to identify what is the right path and having a hard time figuring out, "Is this enough? Is this too much? Am I asking too much? Am I not asking for much? Am I too free? Am I not free enough?"⁠—that's written in your chart, which would make sense why, again, you're being harassed by the Hierophant. He's not calling you on the phone once a week. He's harassing you. Yeah. Saturn is the focal planet to a T-square, so that tracks.

                        The other thing is you are not the first, the last, or the 1,200th person who's a double Virgo with Mercury and Venus in Virgo who has a tendency to be impatient, quick with the mind, and just super analytical. Those ski slopes, those swoosh, swoosh, of your brain⁠—I'm sorry I keep on calling it that, but that's how I see it.

Hierophant:     It's okay.

Jessica:            It looks really fast.

Hierophant:     It's fast.

Jessica:            It just looks really fast and sharp. You know what I mean?

Hierophant:     It's fast.

Jessica:            You take turns. You take turns. I mean, it's so much Virgo, right? And so that tracks. And you've got lots of things in your birth chart that reinforce it. So we could have had the exact same conversation based on your birth chart that we had based on the Tarot. Why I'm glad we had it based on the Tarot is you're a Tarot reader. You have a relationship with cards. So this hopefully will help you to continue the conversation in your own language, right?

                        And when in astrology we're looking at air signs, in the Tarot, we're looking at swords. I like that there's that easy crossover, and it's just like every time you pull a sword card, you can be like, "Okay. I'm in my mind. I'm in my Virgo stuff." It's just right there for you, and you don't have to learn more astrology to get there. So I was excited to get to use a language that you already speak for this reading. And I hope the cards keep that conversation going in a way that works for you, however that ends up playing out.

Hierophant:     Well, I'll let you know if the Hierophant pops up again tomorrow or not for ten years.

Jessica:            I want to know. I want to know. I'll be very curious. And if it does, I think your practice of being like, "Okay. Give me some follow-up cards. Give me a little context. Give me an immediate pro tip," is a good one. Ask the cards for pro tips. That's what they're there for. And I would also say maybe get a book. There is this astrologer named Karen Hamaker-Zondag, and she has a book on the Tarot. I think it's called Tarot as a Way of Life. And it's a great book. It's based on the Rider-Smith-Waite deck, so it's not based on the Aquarian deck.

And I don't have a book referral for the Aquarian deck. I recommended that you maybe check out the book that I recommended, and also see if you can find a book on the Aquarian deck specifically, because the Aquarian deck does not deviate heavily from the Rider-Smith-Waite deck, but it's literally called the Aquarian deck because it's way more progressive in its values.

                        So I'd be really curious about, "What does the writer of that deck say about the Hierophant?" because you're pulling it in that deck specifically. And I know there is a companion book for that deck because I remember a friend of mine⁠—actually, it was Michelle Tea⁠—had a book on it. If I'm remembering it correctly, she had a book on it.

Hierophant:     Okay. I'll look for it.

Jessica:            And then I want to encourage you, if you continue to play with the cards, to explore other decks that have really good companion books. Do you like cats?

Hierophant:     I do. I love cats. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Me, too. There is this deck called The Tarot of the Cat People, and it's not just a good Tarot deck; it has a great companion book. It's not too long. I think you have to buy it separate from the deck. You know what I mean? But it's not too long. It's very user-friendly. And it's still based on the Rider-Smith-Waite, so it follows the same thing that you're used to with the Aquarian deck. So you might want to fuck with that because it's nice to have multiple decks to sometimes be like, "It keeps on saying Hierophant. Please tell me something else." And just see if they're like, "Hierophant."

Hierophant:     And they all have different vibes. It's pretty amazing.

Jessica:            Right. Right. It's really cool. Yeah. It's really cool. You're working with the energy of that deck. So hopefully that will be helpful and useful.

Hierophant:     It is helpful. Thank you for the book recommendations.

Jessica:            It is my pleasure.

Hierophant:     I'll go look them up.

Jessica:            That's what I like to hear. And I do want you to keep me updated because I'm really curious if he keeps on harassing you.

Hierophant:     Yeah. I'll send you an email, let you know.

Jessica:            Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. Well, my dear, I'm really glad we got to do this, and thank you for being my first Tarot reading on the podcast.

Hierophant:     Thank you so much for having me.