Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:            Welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Guest:              Well, this is the question I wrote in with. I said, "Hi, Jessica. I am so confused about how to understand myself in social interactions. I am new to astrology, but when I see all of the fire in my chart⁠—three planets in Aries, the Moon in Leo, and more going on in Sagittarius⁠—I kind of expect this to spell out effortless extroversion. But not only does solitude feel like my natural habitat, I am racked by social anxiety a lot of the time. Authenticity is so important to me, but I can't get away from a feeling of performativity in most of my interactions with others. And I often leave interactions with this kind of fear of exposure, feeling exhausted and paranoid about how I've come across to friends and family and general acquaintances. And I hate this. I would love to know if there's something in my chart that could help me show up in my communities as myself and with confidence and consistency."

Jessica:            Yes. That is why I picked your question. It is so relatable and so important, and also, I'm sorry you have social anxiety and all the things. But I have answers. I do have answers. For the astrology nerds in the room, you were born March 23rd of '83, 10:59 p.m., in Ames, Iowa.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. So, big level, when we start studying astrology, everybody focuses on signs because it's the thing that you know about. You can know nothing about astrology and know Aries is a fire sign, right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Which⁠—you are an Aries. And so people get really focused on signs. And your assessment that, "Oh, fire sign equals extroverted"⁠—yeah, that's a good assessment. Yeah. That makes sense. The thing is that we are not just zodiac signs. And it's why, when people don't know much about astrology, they're so quick to be like, "Oh, astrology doesn't work. That has nothing to do with me. I'm not my sign," because nobody is just their Sun sign, right? We're looking at this complicated tapestry of planets, and all the lines in the middle draw out the geometrical relationship between those planets. There's layers and layers of data. And so I want to just validate that your assessment is not wrong.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            You do have a strong personality because fire is strong, right? But let's just take a moment to⁠—because you work with visualization. Does visualization work for you and all, visualizing what things are? Does that help you learn?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

Guest:              Oh yeah. Definitely.

Jessica:            Great. So I'm going to just share this with you. When we think about the stereotypes of⁠, "You're Leo Moon," "You're Aries Sun," "all that Sagittarius," you think big fire, people dancing around fire at a party. That's the stereotypes. But when we think about astrology, we're really thinking about the elements and nature. And the truth is that we use fire at the hearth to heat a home. We use it to cook. We use it to⁠—this might sound heavy, but we can use it to burn bodies. We can use it to burn refuse, compost, and trash. A lot of times, this is a thing we do. We burn it.

                        Fire is not just about parties and extroversion. It's about creation and destruction. It's a specific form of creation and destruction. And what it does is it can get out of control, but it also⁠—when it is contained in a safe place⁠—is it sustains life, or at least it can.

Guest:              Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is there are maybe a lot of different ways to understand how fire could work in someone's personality⁠—

Jessica:            Yes. Yes.

Guest:              ⁠—and that might not be that extroversion that seems like the, maybe, lowest-hanging fruit to grab for.

Jessica:            It is. It is. It is the lowest hanging fruit, and it's not a wrong fruit for a lot of people, which is where stereotypes come from; enough people resonate with that one. But you've got three planets in Sagittarius, and they're intercepted your first house. And so, okay⁠—a bunch of things. The first thing is Sagittarius is this zodiac sign is associated with optimism and adventure. And so, when you see you've got a bunch of Sagittarius in you, you might be like, "Well, why am I not the most optimistic person in the world?" And I'm guessing you're not the most optimistic person in the world. True story?

Guest:              I mean, I sort of flip back and forth. Sometimes I do feel like the most optimistic person, but I also have anxiety. So I don't know where that lands me.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So the truth is⁠—and this is where⁠—I don't know how long you've been listening to podcasts or how much you know about astrology, but I'm a humanistic astrologer, which means it's kind of like a human-centered take on all the things. And so what I've experienced and my perception is that the trouble with Sagittarius is that it gives you this nature or this perspective where anything is possible. And associated with that, I've often found that people experience anxiety or depression because it's like, "If anything's possible, why am I doing this? If anything's possible, why am I that? If anything's possible, why would I have said that? Why would this relationship be stuck here?" Does that resonate?

Guest:              Oh yeah, 100 percent.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              I often feel a lot of anxiety about just how I'm spending my time, just cognitive dissonance, like, "Is this really the right thing? Is this really the most valuable thing I could be doing right at this moment?" Then, after I do it, then I second-guess, "Was that the right thing?"

Jessica:            Right. So one place that comes from is actually your Sagittarius mini-stellium. Three planets⁠—I'm going to call it a mini-stellium. It's this part of you that's aware that it could be anything, and it gives this really profound discontent: "Well, then why is it this?" People who have a lot of Sagittarius in their chart can sometimes love travel for the reason that it takes you out of your regular life. And so anything is possible when you're traveling, and that's exciting. And there's tons of amazing things about it, so I'm not trying to shit on traveling, trust.

                        But exploring the world as a way to deal with not knowing what the value of your life is can be a distraction. And so the reason why I share this is because part of what is written in your nature is the Jupiter/Uranus conjunction in the first house. It makes you somebody who is odd, and that is a compliment. I hope you hear it as such, okay?

Guest:              Yes, definitely.

Jessica:            It's eccentric. It's odd. It's giving, like, "Who is she? How did she come up with that weird way she said it?" thing, right? It just means that you are yourself. You may try not to be yourself. You may try to fit in. It doesn't work. You're yourself. And again, highest of compliments from me. That is a good thing in my world. We're going to get to the hard parts of that in a second for you.

                        But you also have Neptune in the first house, which means there is a predisposition towards anxiety for you, in part because other people perceive you to be a really different thing than you perceive yourself to be. Other people can project shit onto you really easily.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              Definitely.

Jessica:            It’s a hard aspect. And so let's add another layer of complexity: these two planets are intercept. And so, when we have planets that are intercept, it's hard to feel a sense of ownership of them. So sometimes you feel optimistic, and sometimes you feel like you can kind of merge into any kind of situation and get along with any kind of person, and you feel happy to let your freak flag fly. And other times, you're like, "I don't know. I feel super normal. Everybody gets me. I don't get me. They get me. I don't get me." There's a way that you can kind of flip-flop with self-ownership and self-possession.

Guest:              Yeah. I never would have articulated it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. And let's add more complexity to the mix. You've got a tiny stellium in Aries, you damn fire breather. So you've got Mercury conjunct the Sun in Aries, and you also have Mars in Aries. So you should be confident, assertive, maybe even aggressive, maybe even sometimes a bully. You should be really like push, push, push. Here's the "but," and this is a very big "but." The "but" is Neptune is very tightly square to your Mercury and your Sun, and it's an out-of-sign square. That doesn't really matter, but people get really weird about out-of-sign aspects, so I'm just saying it out loud. It's an out-of-sign aspect.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            It's still a very tight aspect. Your Neptune is at 29 degrees and 12 minutes of Sadge. Your Mercury is at 0 degrees and 43 minutes of Aries. Your Sun is at 2, 59. Okay. English⁠—what it means, Neptune square to Mercury makes your thinking sometimes a bit scrambly. Yeah. It's excellent for creative writing. It's excellent for being intuitive. It's excellent for being empathetic, working with people who are not primarily verbal, or working in a way that is not primarily verbal. And it can often coincide with feeling a great deal of mental anxiety.

                        I was thinking I was going to say, "Hey, you look cute in that outfit." And then what you actually say is something weird about that outfit, and then you have an anxiety moment about it that lasts three weeks or something. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Guest:              Yep.

Jessica:            Yeah. And then you have Neptune square the Sun, and this creates a similar kind of anxiety around your identity and your sense of self. Have you heard this expression about spoons, people talking about, "I don't have spoons"?

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Your spoons⁠—you've got this full drawer of spoons. And then you look to the left, or you just do one little thing, and then all of a sudden, you're like, "Where did all my spoons go? I'm spoonless." The Sun is related to your vitality, and Neptune functions like a sieve to that vitality. So there is a way that all of this fire becomes steamy.

Guest:              Oh, interesting.

Jessica:            Yeah. So what happens if you're⁠—you ever been in a shvitz? You ever been in a steam room?

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            It's exhausting.

Guest:              It is.

Jessica:            It's really engaging and soothing, and then you got nothing.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so there is a way that your fire can be⁠—we'll stick with "steamy" for now.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            And what this means is you need, as a practice in life, a lot of space to kind of decompress and ground in between things, which⁠—do you have human babies?

Guest:              I do.

Jessica:            Okay. That makes it very hard. That makes it very, very hard.

Guest:              It does.

Jessica:            Yeah. It makes it very, very, very, very hard because how do you decompress from children? Where's the time? Who has the time? Who has the space? It's very, very challenging to carve out that kind of time. But that is actually a really important thing for you because Neptune creates a permeability. So, back to the steam room, it opens up all your pores, which is great if you're in a clean steam room and then you take a shower and you're in a fluffy, white towel. But if you go from a steam into⁠—I don't know⁠—a dirty city and then all your pores are open, then you just get really dirty.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so let's play that out on an energy level. You're constantly in this steam. Your pores are open. You're energetically open. You're a loofah sponge, and you're just pulling fucking everything. So, if you're hanging out with your friend and she feels really weird about her outfit, and you're like, "Oh, I want to compliment her outfit. She looks really cute," it might come out weird, in part because you're pulling in, unconsciously, her weird feelings about what she's wearing. And so it might kind of get a little twisty inside of you unintentionally⁠—unintentionally.

Guest:              Yeah. I feel like sometimes that works out to my advantage.

Jessica:            Yes.

Guest:              I just have, oh, the right thing to say, and that almost creates more anxiety for me because I'm like, "I don't know. When should I just be quiet? When should I say the thing that might actually be helpful?" It's just really hard to track.

Jessica:            Yeah. So that brings me to the third really important thing to talk about in your chart. Yes, you've got a Moon in Leo, but your Moon in Leo is the focal planet to a T-square between your Pluto/Saturn conjunction that is opposite to Venus. So, in English, yeah, you got a lot of fire in you, but it's all fucking compromised. And compromised⁠—I want to just be really clear: compromised is not bad. It is a challenge. Also, what if you had no compromising factors to your fire? Who the fuck would you be? Would you be listening to a person as we speak? Would it be hard for you to stay in your skin? It's not good or bad. I want to be really clear. It's not about having a good chart or a bad chart. It's about understanding your nature so that you can work with your nature.

                        So the reason why I get ahead of what I'm about to say with that is because your Pluto/Saturn conjunction in the twelfth house makes you perfectionistic, punishing, and really fucking intense towards yourself.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. You're a dick. You're a total dick to yourself. Let's just be totally frank, right?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            And were you raised with both your parents?

Guest:              They were separated, and I lived with both of them at different times.

Jessica:            Okay. And did one of them have a substance abuse issue or a mental health issue?

Guest:              I think my mom probably has had mental health issues, but she's not real communicative, so I guess⁠—

Jessica:            Sure. Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            "Not real communicative" feels like an understatement, but I will allow it. And when we say mental health issues, might it be kind of depression stuff?

Guest:              Yeah, definitely. I had a sibling that died when we were young, and so that really was hard on my mom.

Jessica:            Devastating, I would imagine. I'm really sorry.

Guest:              So yeah. That's, I think, been a big part of her mental health state ever since.

Jessica:            Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, not⁠—it's really⁠—as devastating as it is to lose a child, it's like⁠—and to continue parenting and have to hold it together for your kids is⁠—

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's an impossible assignment. Well, it had a big impact on you, too. The way that you internalized and handled that, the way it shows up in your birth chart is, "I have to be perfect. I have to give people what they want before they want it. I have to take up exactly as much space as the right amount of space, and if I take up too much space, then I'm a fucking terrible person."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Sorry. And so you place this intense, aggressive, relentless, and very punishing amount of energy and pressure upon yourself to be the right kind of woman, to be the right kind of girl, to be the right kind of friend, to be the right kind of person, to be the right kind of nurturing. That's awful, right? How do you negotiate that with an open heart and not center your perfectionistic drives instead of alignment? How do you find alignment when what you're trying to make sure is that you're centering the right of your intuitive processes, that you're making people feel a certain way? Because when you're so focused on how it comes across and how it affects others⁠—fucking exhausting, first of all.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And it's pointed outside of you instead of internally so that when you finally are like, "I cannot do this anymore," then you get really what looks like selfish on the outside. You just drop everything. You drop everyone. You can't engage with anyone. It's too much. Am I right here?

Guest:              That's very true. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. And are you partnered?

Guest:              I am. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. Great. And he or she?

Guest:              He.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. I'm assuming that he gives you space or that he has a really busy career that takes him out of the house a lot or something like that.

Guest:              Both of those things.

Jessica:            Yeah. Mm-hmm. Makes sense because you need a lot of fucking space. You do. I mean, do you always enjoy your space? No. But do you need it? Yes. And I want to just hold the complexity of this relentless, punishing drive towards perfection that you experience in your emotional life and how you connect with others at the same time as I'm holding this, "Who am I? Did I say the right thing? Oh, my intuitive sense is really accurate except for when it's really not." It's a lot at once.

                        And so, when it comes to navigating⁠—because I think the title of your question was something like Social Drama. When it comes to navigating groups of people as opposed to one person at a time, things get really complicated, and it activates the most of this stuff for you because if it's just me and you hanging out for coffee, you can tap into me. Now, I might get it right. I might get it wrong. It might be stressful. It might not be. But at least you can kind of tap into one person. You know what your feelings are about. You know what the assignment is. "My job is to get along with this person at this time."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            When you're in a group, how do you track five people at once?

Guest:              I can't.

Jessica:            No. Nobody can. Nobody can. No. I'm a professional psychic. I can't. Nobody can. You're not supposed to. That's the fun part is you're not supposed to. What happens is your coping mechanism shows up, like all survival mechanisms do, and it's like, "This is what we're going to do. We're going to track everybody." And then it fails. And so it gets stronger. Your survival mechanism gets stronger because it's not working.

                        And so, in order to kind of navigate through this, you have a really challenging assignment. And that really challenging assignment is to adjust and adapt your survival mechanism, the very thing that exists to help you survive. Now, there's a lot of things that can be said, but I want to just slow myself down and ask you, is there a specific thing that happened in your life that triggered this question? Is there a specific issue happening right now or that's happened in your past that is open and that would be helpful for us to talk about?

Guest:              I think it's coming up because my kids are getting older. They're now kind of in the late elementary school age.

Jessica:            Almost middle school, but not yet?

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm sort of entering a new stage of my life where I've sort of been able to hermit to a great extent for the last ten years or so, and now I really⁠—I don't really want to do that. I want to find a way to be in my communities. And so I've been doing that more and more, and it is really confronting. And I'm having trouble managing my energy for all the reasons that you said. It's just I can't seem to track it the right way. I feel really fiery and open and ready to meet people and talk to people one minute, and then the next day, it could be nothing.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Guest:              And so, yeah, I'm not sure how to envision this next stage of my life in a way that would be really in alignment with, like you said, who I am. It's a question that's still⁠—I don't know. The jury's still out, in some respects. It's not a very specific answer, but it feels like a very⁠—

Jessica:            No, no. It is. It is. Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah. Okay.

Jessica:            And so this is not about work, right? This is about, more, connections with people.

Guest:              I think it might be about work. I'm considering if I want to⁠—I've been a stay-at-home parent, but I'm considering if I want to enter the working force in some capacity. And it's just another thing where I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's the best way for me to really embody who I am in my best moments.

Jessica:            So the social stuff and work stuff are really different. There's Venn diagrams where they overlap. I'm assuming around the work stuff, you're not driven by money; you don't have to. Is that correct?

Guest:              No, yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. So I'm going to put the work stuff to the side as a result of that because if there's not a necessity there, let's deal with where you do have a necessity, which is around your emotional health, your emotional welfare. You're supposed to be changing. That's where you're at. Pluto is opposite your Moon. Pluto is square to itself and will be square to Saturn next year. You're supposed to be changing, okay? And these changes are supposed to be confronting.

So I want to just say to you now and for the next couple years, yeah, be confronted. It's good. It's not fun. It's not fun, but it's not a sign that something's wrong. It's a sign that you're evolving beyond where you've already grown towards. And I think a lot of us have this idea⁠—we're raised with this idea⁠—that you grow up, and then once you're grown up, you're done; it's done. That's the opposite of the truth. It's the opposite of the truth. If we don't continue to evolve and grow as we age, we settle into the worst parts of our birth chart, generally speaking. And you don't want that. You're not happy with that.

Here's where I'm stuck. Do I just tell you what I'm seeing in your chart and talk to you about how to get on with others or how to get on with yourself in relationship to others, or do I have you ask me a question? I can't quite tell what's going to be more effective. Do you have a question that's kind of on the tip of your brain? You don't have to, but I'm just trying to navigate the best way to get at it.

Guest:              I'm wondering⁠—I'm just thinking⁠—this is maybe too specific now, but I don't know if there's some kind of practice that I could do when I'm in a social situation or some kind of visualization that would help me to kind of ground in and get a sense of⁠ ownership.

Jessica:            Yeah. We can talk about that.

Guest:              The ownership piece feels really important to me. I mean, I guess I can't stop other people from projecting things onto me, but I just want to feel confident that I know when it's true and when it's not.

Jessica:            Yeah. And when you talk about social situations, what are these social situations you're finding yourself in?

Guest:              So, for example, I sing in a blues band. It's just for fun. But then, afterward, there's some pressure to kind of stick around and mingle and stuff, so I do that. So that's a weird sort of situation to be in. I also somewhat recently joined a faith community at the Unitarian Universalist church in my city, and I've just been kind of brought into their community, but I feel a lot of anxiety when just talking to other people that are members there.

Jessica:            Are you going with your family, or are you just going alone?

Guest:              I take the kids most of the time, and my spouse will come sort of sporadically.

Jessica:            Mm-hmm. Do the kids like it?

Guest:              I don't think so. My daughter sort of likes it, and my son is really⁠—he's younger, and he has some social anxiety, too. So he has trouble kind of being around large groups of people. But I just keep him close to me and don't force him to talk to anybody that he doesn't want to talk to.

Jessica:            Okay. Is there another social situation that you find yourself in, typically?

Guest:              I also have a group of creative writing buddies that⁠—we get together to talk about our work, just talking about books. That's usually pretty supportive.

Jessica:            Yeah, because it's less people.

Guest:              It's less people. Yeah.

Jessica:            That's why. Mm-hmm. So I want to just reflect back to you that, basically, each of these groups is for a specific thing, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            One is for shoes. One is for hats. One is for coats. To be clear, none of them are for outfits. They're all for specific things. And I want to just reflect that back to you. That's not bad. That's not good. It's just noteworthy. They're not groups of friends where it's like, "Oh, we're all moms," or, "We've all known each other since college," which⁠—whatever, right? But just to note, they're also big groups. Church? Big group. Singing in a band and being in a nightclub or whatever, even if it's at a farmers' market, it's still a big group

And I just want to say as your astrologer, in theory, you love big groups, and in practice, you don't. And that doesn't mean that every once in a while, you don't enjoy a big group, because I think you really do every once in a while. But it's literally every once in a while. But in general, for you to feel like, "Oh, this is a place where I can be really authentic and true to me," it's not a big group. In a church setting⁠—I mean, I'm assuming⁠—when you sent the Unitarian church, I was seeing it's kind of a larger church. It's not like 30 people. It's like a bigger space, eh?

Guest:              The space is big, but the community is pretty intimate most of the time, which I think has kind of advantages and drawbacks because it's not like you can slip in and out like a ghost. You're pulled into the conversations. But also, it's nice to feel like you have more of an impact, you know? So...

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. The church thing feels really sticky, which we can talk about specifically. But the church⁠—it's like you wanted to do it, but you brought your kids to it, and you didn't exactly bring them for church reasons. It's like you're trying to put all your socks and T-shirts in the same drawer. You're trying to do a lot at once. Do you know what I mean?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You didn't choose a spiritual community for you because you're at this moment. You kind of were like, "And I'll also bring the kids because I'm with the kids, and the kids⁠—that makes sense to bring them to church." That space looks like a great space for you and the kids, but the kids don't really look like they want this. And you don't seem⁠—and please correct me if I'm wrong⁠—where you're driven by conviction, like as a Unitarian Christian, like, "This is important to me, and I want the kids to have this." It's more like, "Oh, I'm trying this, and this might be really enriching."

Guest:              Yeah, more the latter. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's what it looks like. And it looks like the kids⁠—and maybe⁠—I'm not sure how long it's been going on, but it looks like the kids are not especially enriched by the experience at this point. And your drive for continuing to bring them is muddy, a little. I think this is something you want for you. And so this is where I come back to one of the first things I said, where it's hard when you're a parent, especially a primary parent, to be like, "I'm going to do this for me. Bye. See you guys later. Whatever. You're just my kids." That's not really a big option.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But this church feels like, actually, a really great reflection of your mixed motivations producing mixed results that end up kind of opening the door to you feeling off center⁠—not 100 percent of the time, which, again, fucks you up because if it was 100 percent of the time, that would be a no. But it's a 60/40.

Guest:              Yeah. I don't know if I would have pinpointed it like that, but I feel like there is something to what you're saying. And I'm wondering now if this is one of those areas where I was feeling⁠—I don't know. My friend was there, and she's like, "You would be perfect for this." And I think that's another area where I was like, "Oh, sure. Yeah. If you say so, I might as well give it a try."

Jessica:            Yeah, like, "This will be fun. Let's try it." And I'd be curious, if the kids could have a choice whether or not they wanted to go, if it would be burdensome for you to go without them. I don't know if this would be an environment where⁠ maybe it's a lot of parents and children, and that would just be weird for you to all of a sudden show up without your kids.

But the thing that's exciting to you about this church, from what I'm seeing⁠—and please tell me if I'm wrong⁠—is you were like, "Oh, I want to deepen my spiritual practice. I want to have a place where I can go and connect to my own spirituality and connect with other like-minded adults around their spirituality." And when I see that, I'm like, "Oh, there's a lot of light there. There's a big, clear yes." Does that make sense?

Guest:  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            But then what you did was you brought your kids. And so now you're parenting. You're not in your spiritual practice. You're in the practice of parenting in a spiritual environment, which is a different practice.

Guest:              True. Yeah.

Jessica:            You started off this conversation being like, "My kids are getting older. It's time for me to return to me," which I agree with. But this action is not a clear reflection of it. It's a murky reflection of it. And that's why you feel murky when you're there. It's like, "Oh, this could be right, but why is it not right? But it's good. But why is it not good?" And I think what you're really craving is a spiritual practice or a spiritual place where you can return to yourself, not as a wife, not as a parent⁠—as a person. And I don't know that this can be that place because of how you started it off as "mom you" showing up with the kids. I'm not saying it can't be.

                        You really lock yourself into place. So, if you show up in jeans and a T-shirt to the first thing, you're like, "Okay. Everybody knows me as casual," and you just fucking commit to casual. I'm using so many clothing metaphors, but I'm just getting that that works, so I'm just going to keep going with it. And if you show up on the first day everyone gives you compliments and you're super overdressed, you'll probably be like, "Oh, I have pressure to continue to overdress."

                        So there is a way that you're holding yourself to, "I have to do it the way I started, or I have to not do it." And I don't know that that's true. So, again, I wonder, is this something you can explore? Could you explore giving your kids the choice, "Do you want to come this week?" And if they say no, which they're probably going to say⁠—

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—then is there a way you could go alone? Would that feel bad? Do you feel guilty at that thought?

Guest:              Do you want me to answer that?

Jessica:            Yes, girl. Yes. Yes.

Guest:              I do feel guilty that⁠—I mean, it's because I do a lot of things where I leave my kids out of it, and I really have created that space in a lot of areas of my life. And I guess I was hoping that this would be an area where I could do kind of both things at once, where I could be myself and also be my mom self.

Jessica:            Was that based on your perception that the kids would want this or like this?

Guest:              I guess I thought they would probably get a lot out of it, even if they⁠—

Jessica:            I'm going to call your bluff here. This is your fire showing. This is your fire showing. You're like, "This is good. Therefore, it's good for them."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            You didn't go deep into who your children actually are and where they're at developmentally and what they actually want and what's interesting to them in this moment and the environment that they thrive in. You have a son and a daughter, right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Your son doesn't like sitting still. It's like he's already overwhelmed by classrooms. Now he's in a church environment on a weekend, and this is not where he thrives, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And your daughter is at this moment where she's tweeny. It feels so tweeny. It's like she doesn't want to be in another social place to navigate people more. These are your kids. They don't want to be in more social environments. And so they're not getting spiritual guidance here. They're not.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            They're just kids who are put in another learning environment where they're supposed to learn more things. Tell me if this feels right based on how they've reacted, but that's what I'm seeing.

Guest:              Yes, I would say that's accurate.

Jessica:            They're just like, "Oh, we have to learn more stuff. We have to do more stuff."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's not the spiritual opening that you were looking for for yourself, and that's because they don't want a spiritual opening. They're trying to navigate their lives, and you are not being driven by deeply held religious beliefs. You're more like, "Oh, let's explore this thing." And they're just not at the right moment developmentally for that. It's not it. And so, again, this is where your fire does show because you're like, "This is a yes. Let's go," instead of, "This is a yes how? This is a yes why? This is a yes for who? This is a yes when?" Questions take time, and all the fire your chart is like, zip, zip, go. And so you try things before you fully assess them, and then sometimes it's a no.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And because of how hard on yourself you are, instead of being like, "Oh, okay, this isn't working for the kids," you're like, "I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep⁠—because clearly there was a yes at a moment. So, if there was a yes at a moment, then I have to make that yes be real; otherwise, it's a failure," when I would say experimentation requires adaptability.

And so there's a part of you that's really adaptable and really good at experimenting, and then there's a part of you that gets really rigid and is really not great with experimentation. And the part of you that struggles with experimentation comes up socially. And so this is where putting yourself in another community and putting the kids in another community is kind of antithetical to the true goal that you had. Maybe the goal was, in part, spending time with this friend.

So, that aside, the goal of you being able to really explore your spiritual center⁠—"Where is it? What's it look like? Would it be fun to have a community around it?"⁠—to which I would say, for you, what would be the best, just as a fun little pro tip, is exploring your spirituality either alone or with up to three friends, and from that place of clarity that you cultivate over the course of whatever⁠—it could be in a moment, and it could be over the course of months⁠—then joining a community.

First, know yourself, and then meet the people, instead of trying to find yourself in a room full of people that already have a sense of clarity about why they're there or what they're getting out of it, because then you're going to be like, "Okay. I sat in the steam. I opened my pores. And then I put on a mask. And then I put on a red-light therapy. And then I did the things, and now I have a greater sense of awareness." We're using beauty metaphors, but I hope it lands. Does that make sense?

Guest:  Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. So that will make your life easier. And also, that is harder for you to do. It's just harder for you to do. You like to⁠—again, there's the fire. You want to jump into the things with the people, jumping, just fire⁠—that's how it does.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so⁠—I don't know. I have a candle burning. It was the New Moon yesterday. I lit a candle. It's still burning. Fire can sustain over the course of days, weeks. You can light a flame, and it can stay lit. It doesn't have to whoosh. But because you've got chunks of fire in your chart⁠, you have that tendency to whoosh. And it's not a bad tendency. I want to reiterate it's not bad. It's just you have to adjust the dial. You were born in '83. You remember dials.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            If you listen to music at the same volume for all music at all times, in all moods, in all situations, it gets stressful. But you don't. It's like when the kids are talking to you, the music is turned down. When you're alone and you're emotional, the music is turned up. We want to have a dial on that fire.

                        Okay. Pulling back, the writing group is great. Sometimes social issues come up. Sometimes they don't. If that was the only group you were a part of, you wouldn't have written in this question.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. And I want to just reflect back to you, because it's a smaller group where there's been room for you to develop individual intimacies, where you have greater clarity about what this person is to you and what you are to them and, therefore, what the expectations are, it makes you more centered. It makes you more self-aware, and you know how to pace yourself better. The anxiety is much more like, "Oh, I know I'm feeling anxious. I had a weird interaction with this person." Boop. It's like you know how to then deal with that. You know?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So I want to just reflect that back to you because there is nothing wrong with being a one-on-one person. There's nothing wrong with being a small groups person. A lot of times, mom life⁠—there's all this⁠—you're friends with the other parents of your kids, and kids hang out in groups, and then the parents end up hanging out in groups. A lot of that is kind of forced upon you. And I don't know if you went to college before you were a mom, but that's also groups forced upon you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And so that puts you in this position where, as a grown-up adult human person now, you get to decide what actually works for you about that and what doesn't. And so that brings me to the singing in the band. Girl, you get to be mysterious if you want to be mysterious, and you can leave. You can play and have fun and then⁠—here. This is a gem that I employ in my life, and I want to share it with you to experiment with. Leave the party while it's still fun. Leave the event while you're still having fun. Don't wait till you're not having fun before you leave.

                        A lot of people⁠—I think we stay until it's bad, but then it feels bad. While it's fun⁠—you just got offstage. You're feeling sparkly. "Bye, guys. You're great. Oh, I'm so sorry. I can't stay to talk. I gotta go. Bye." And then you leave with all the juj of having played and having had it been fun.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Experiment with it. Try it. See if it spikes your anxiety after you leave or if you're just like, "Oh shit. That was delightful for me. I didn't force myself to do something I don't want to do, which is talk to strangers after I just was kind of naked on a stage."

Guest:              Yeah. That is exactly what it feels like.

Jessica:            Yeah. And when you're on a stage, no matter how vulnerable you feel, it never comes across that way to people. And so people are just like, "Oh, this is what that meant to me. This is what I think of you. This is what I'm experiencing of you." And when you're just raw and wide open, that's not going to be a good vibe for you.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So you get to be mysterious. You get to be like, "I'm going to try a new thing for"⁠—tell your bandmates, "For the next two months, I'm going to try a new thing where I gregariously smile at the people, and then I say bye," and you leave. If you have to load a van or whatever, do your thing and leave. And see if that helps your anxiety. And if it does, that's an easy fix.

Guest:              Okay. Yeah.

Jessica:            And if it doesn't, then you can experiment with titrating instead of⁠—what I'm saying is get off the stage, smile, and leave, right? So titrating that might be hang out with your bandmates ten minutes. Put an alarm on your clock. Have it buzz in your pocket. Okay, now it's time to leave. So practicing adapting a little bit, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more, just to see how this works for you. Maybe your happy place isn't getting off the stage and leaving. Maybe your happy places is getting off the stage, having a glass of water, talking to whoever walks up to you, and then leaving. Maybe you want to play with possibility and then bounce, or maybe it's just bounce. Maybe it's just bounce.

There's not a right or a wrong answer. What it really is is giving yourself the option. It's giving yourself the choice. So, again, with my little method of "leave the party while you're still having fun"⁠—sometimes I'm having fun all night long. Usually, I'm not. Usually, I'm there early, gone early. You know?

Guest:  Yes, I know.

Jessica:            But the nice thing about leaving while you're still having fun is you can tell when you're having fun, but⁠—where you're having fun, and it starts to peter; it starts to turn just a teeny bit. That's my out. For me, that's my out. So it's not about the amount of time. It's about the quality of the time. And the quality of the time is not about the people around you, necessarily. It can be about the vibes. It can be about what's happening in your life. It can be about you're tired. It can be a million different things.

And practicing telling people, "This is something I'm doing to experiment with adult me, experiment with this part of my life"⁠—then your friends and your bandmates and all that kind of stuff don't have to take it personally, and you don't have to worry about holding their hands through your changing behaviors.

Guest:              Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think it's like the permissioning is hard for me. I feel like⁠—and like you said, I kind of get stuck. Once I'm there, I'm like, "Well, I went to the trouble to get here. Now"⁠—

Jessica:            Yep.

Guest:              ⁠—"I'll stay. I'll stay until the end."

Jessica:            Do you stay till the end of the night?

Guest:              No, not usually anymore. But I'll stay well past when I want to. I stay as long as I think the person who invited me wants me to stay.

Jessica:            Yeah. So this kind of comes to the crux of the issue, which is, for as long as you are navigating your life by looking outside of you for cues, validation, or permission, you are practicing staying out of alignment. A practice in looking at me and being like, "Are we ready for dessert? Do you not want dessert?" instead of looking inside of you to be like, "Dessert would make me feel a little too full," "Dessert sounds delicious"⁠—whatever it is, looking inside of yourself before, then looking at me and being like, "Hey, babe, you want dessert? I'm feeling a little too stuffed, but I'd love to hang out with you while you eat the dessert if you want the dessert."

                        You're allowed to know where your yes, where your no, where your maybe, where your "kinda" lives. It doesn't have to be just yes and no. You're allowed to know where your preferences exist and also consider the preferences of others. So this, as a practice, isn't about always doing what you want. It's about always knowing what you want and then making choices about when do you want to be adaptable? When do you want to center the other person's needs over your own? When do you want to center your own needs over your own? It's not an either/or.

                        And I think that that Saturn/Pluto dynamic in your birth chart, that Leo Moon, is like, "It's either this or it's that, and there's nothing else," when the truth is there's always something else. There's always something else. And so, in this practice, let's say⁠—how often do you play with the band?

Guest:              It's usually every six weeks or so.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. So it's not weekly or anything.

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            That would be awful. So, if you every six weeks make a practice of being like, "Okay. I'm going to go with the intention of leaving when I'm having"⁠—obviously, you're stuck onstage. Okay. But once you're offstage, you're going to make a practice of leaving while you're still having fun. It's practicing noticing how you feel, practicing noticing, "Okay. I can tell it's time for me to go, and I'm talking to a friend about something real. Therefore, I'm going to stay a little longer and I'm going to, at one point, touch their hand and say, 'Hey, I can feel my energy kind of waning, and I'm going to have to go soon. Do you want to continue this conversation? I can drive you home. Do you want to talk tomorrow?'" There are so many ways that you can be there for people and be there for yourself at the same time.

Guest:              Oh. It feels relaxing just to hear that.

Jessica:            Yay.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            That makes me so happy. Your habit is to make this issue really complicated, but it's actually really, really simple. It's looking inside to find your answer before you look outside to find the answer. And then consider both data points, and make a decision. Sometimes when you look inside to find an answer, because you're a human but also because Neptune is square Mercury and Sun in your chart, the answer is, "I don't know. Maybe." A lot of times, you're just like⁠—you don't have an especially fixed opinion or hot take, or it takes a minute for it to kind of sink through the layers for you to know.

Guest:              Mm-hmm. That's true.

Jessica:            And so, just as a reflection, "I don't know" and "maybe" is not "yes." "I don't know" and "maybe" is not no. And that doesn't mean, "Oh shit. Well, then what is it?" It's just, "Oh, okay. So more data is useful." So that more data may be, like, "Okay. Well, the kids aren't having fun. If I'm not sure if I'm having fun and the kids aren't having fun, that's a lot of data now."

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And that doesn't mean it's a no, but it does mean it's not a yes. So, with not a yes, you can experiment with different ways of showing up, using church as an example again, right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Different ways of⁠—"Maybe I give them more choice in how they do or don't show up. Maybe I try going alone. Maybe we try a different place." Maybe you try a different place. There's lots of ways that you get to play. And an important practice within all of this is, whenever you catch yourself thinking, "Yeah, but that's wrong. That's bad," you know you're in a habit. That habit is to believe that you're here to, in some way, serve or to prove yourself. Did that resonate, or does that not feel quite right?

Guest:              When I hear you say it, I think, "How is that not true?"

Jessica:            Ah, shit. Okay. So, then, it does resonate.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Well, it's a great question. It's a really important question. And I'm going to say something that might be annoying to hear, but you get to make that decision. A lot of people believe all women are here to serve. Maybe you believe that. Maybe all the adults in your life believe that women are here to serve, in which case you get to decide whether or not you believe that. What I believe might be interesting. It might be helpful, but it's actually not ultimately that fucking relevant. What do you believe? That's the thing that makes your life.

                        And you get to disagree with people you respect. You get to disagree with people you care about. And you get to change your fucking mind any old time you like⁠—change your ways, change your mind, change your habits. The truth is you are allowed to believe that you are here to serve others and that it is incumbent upon you to be good and to take care of people all the time. You do get to make that choice. But I would ask you this: is that what you want for your children, for your daughter or your son, to feel that they are here to serve?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Are you sure? Because you're allowed to. If that's what you believe, you are allowed to want that for your kids if that's what you believe.

Guest:              I guess what I want is to believe that embodying ourselves, whatever that looks like⁠—that that is the best form of service.

Jessica:            I like that. That's very philosophical. It's very Sagittarian philosophical. It's not behavioral. It's not psychological. It's not emotional. It's philosophical. Right?

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So yes. You and me agree that, ideally, we hope that being in alignment helps us to be of service.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            But what we're actually talking about is behavior⁠—psychology. And so placing that high-level philosophical framework upon your psychology and your behavior⁠—it ends up squashing you. Can't you feel that, that instead of developing your psychology and your emotion with that framework way above you⁠—it's like the framework is the thing you're really clear about, and everything else you're a lot less clear about. So you keep on trying to squash yourself into proving yourself and being of service and proving yourself and being of service because it's the one thing you're really clear about, is this big, philosophical framework. But you're applying it to places where it's not exactly helpful.

                        If we think about your kids, learning how to be critical thinker, how to work through a text and understand what the writer is actually trying to say and what the writer is not trying to say⁠—it's like what you learn in school, right? It's like how to read a book and how to make sense of ideas. That's great. We want that for kids. And inevitably, what happens as kids grow is they naturally start questioning everything. Your parents, who you think are geniuses and know everything about the world, you realize are flawed humans who know nothing about the world. Right?

Guest:              Right.

Jessica:            And so being able to apply this philosophical framework of we want kids to explore the world and explore what they know⁠—big yes. But does it apply in all situations, in all relationships, at all times? No. We can't take that framework because we want kids to not only learn how to critically think, we want kids to learn how to listen. We want kids to learn how to understand that they don't understand everything, and so to be safe. There's a reason why we tell kids, "Don't chat with adults online." Kids can't understand that. How could they understand that? They don't have the context for the dangers that we have.

                        So I'm giving you this comparison because if your primary goal is to be of service, to do no harm at any time, then your primary goal is to look outside of yourself for answers. Now, that's not 100 percent true 100 percent of the time for all the people, but it's true for you now. Okay? That's what I'm saying. And I could be wrong. I want you to hold space for I could be wrong about this. But let me just follow the thought a little more.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            It is your trauma pattern from your childhood to be a good girl, to not take up too much space, to give to others, to support others. That is a trauma pattern, and it's a high-functioning trauma pattern. People like it. Everybody likes it. So it's a very nice trauma pattern. It's a high-functioning one, right? If somebody's a workaholic, it's a great trauma pattern for capitalism, right? You being really good at giving people what they want before they know they want it⁠—fabulous. But the problem is it still comes out of trauma. You learned that out of trauma. Does that make sense to from your childhood?

Guest:              Yes. Yes.

Jessica:            Okay. Good. It feels glaringly obvious to me, too. Okay.

Guest:              Yes.

Jessica:            So to then turn around as an adult and say to yourself, "Well, alignment is being of service," well, now you're just taking spiritual blah-blah-blah, self-help blah-blah-blah, and you're applying it to your trauma pattern to justify it. And what I'm saying is you're right. Of course, I⁠—fucking hippie over here, I think, for sure, we should all be of service to each other and the planet, 100 percent, but not this way.

What I'm trying to get at here is figuring out who you are and giving yourself permission to seek alignment, which means recognizing where you're not aligned, recognizing what you don't want to do, recognizing the ways in which you serve others at the expense of your own welfare⁠—that's really challenging because then you can recognize, "You're hanging out with me, and I really want you to keep on asking me questions about this thing that I'm going through. And you and I have talked about it 700 times, and I've proven to you 700 times that I'm really not listening to you and I just want to complain." Okay. So yeah. Yeah. I'm tapping in on something.

And related to that, I'm just sucking your energy. That's all I'm doing. I'm just sucking your energy. Listen. I'm truly suffering. I truly don't know a better way. And I'm asking you to give me what I want. I want you to basically indulge my self-destructive behavior. I don't think of it that way, but that's what I'm doing. Right? And what do you do? Well, you're of service. You keep on letting me tap you dry. You just let me tap you dry. You let me pursue the self-destructive bullshit that I do over and over again, which⁠—I never grow. I never heal. I never learn. But you're a good friend. [indiscernible 00:53:59].

Okay. Now we're making progress. Okay. So it's okay for you to say, "Babe, I love you, but it seems like we've twirled around this fucking merry-go-round a bunch of times. Is there a way we can shift?" Now, you would never talk like that, so let me reframe that. Sorry. That was very Jessica-y of me. This is not you at all. Mercury square to Neptune⁠—it's like you have a really hard time with sharp edges. You have a really hard time with saying no. You have this feeling that showing up for other people is a devotional act, and that devotional act is always followed by a "yes" and "please" and "you're welcome." It's never like my shit, where⁠—you hear how I talk, so I don't need to explain how I talk. But you would never in a million years do what I do. Okay. And so I want to just acknowledge different⁠—and I want to come back⁠—

Guest:  That's why I love it, though.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Thank you. I mean, let me say this. People may hate or love⁠—or whatever⁠—the way I talk. But here's the thing. I don't think anyone in my life is concerned that I'm not being honest with them, ever. I don't think anyone in my life is unsure of where they stand. And you want that desperately. You want to know where you stand. You want to know the truth from people. But you don't offer those things to others because you don't want to hurt their feelings.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Right. And so you're inevitably, invariably, having relationships with people who are going to do the same with you. And so that's not bad, and that's not good. It's neither. It just is what it is at this time. And if you truly want to change it, if you want to be a little more honest with people and to get more honesty from them, if you want to be able to say no or to gently redirect the conversation or to recognize, "I'm enabling this fucking friend who I love, but I'm enabling her, and I don't want to keep enabling her. And I don't know how to stop enabling her"⁠—to then be able to say, "I'm going to research this topic." There's TikTok. There's YouTube. There's a million places to research things for free now.

                        "And then I'm actually going to put into practice what I learned because I'm allowed to be in contrast with people." Contrast isn't always bad. Contrast is actually fertile. For the first decade of my practice, I really hesitated to say critical things to people. I don't know if that's completely true, because I am myself, right? But I really did focus on the positive as much as possible. And what I found was that people were happy, but they didn't come back as much as when I started just being honest and direct because the truth is part of what I do as a psychic astrologer⁠—it's like, "Oh my goodness. It's⁠—woo. Astrology is very exciting, all the things. Right? Very woo-woo, very cool." Okay. But some of it is just having frank conversations about real things and without judgment. That's actually a huge part of what I do, is just holding space for the messiness without judgment.

                        And for me, the practice of that makes me nicer to myself. The practice of that makes me a better friend⁠—sometimes a fucking annoying friend, but a better friend. And you have in your birth chart all the pieces of being somebody who can hold space for messiness without judgment because you know how painful it is to be so judgmental and mean to yourself, and you're fucking over it. You're not over it, but you're over it, but you're not over it, but you're over it. You want to be done.

Guest:              Yes, I do.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And the only way to be done is to be willing to be wrong sometimes. I know. I know. It's to be willing to not get clear approval from people sometimes. It's to be willing to be in contrast with people sometimes. And all of those things means not getting clear validation from others and sitting with the emotions that emerge as a result. And you super, super-duper don't want to do any of that shit, but you want the benefits of having done those things.

Guest:              Exactly. Yes.

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. I mean, I'm with you. I mean, that's perfectly reasonable. But here's the thing. Pluto is opposite your Moon. It's a once-in-a-lifetime transit. This is the time. You're ready to fucking shake off this stuff from your childhood.

Guest:              Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            You are. And ready doesn't mean it's going to happen organically. Ready doesn't mean it's going to happen easily. Ready doesn't mean it won't be painful. Ready just means you're ready. So my question is, do you have a therapist?

Guest:              I do. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Great. And is your therapist somebody who challenges you?

Guest:              No.

Jessica:            Maybe it's time to shift therapists⁠—

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because I can see how a supportive and nurturing therapist is what you've needed and wanted throughout your adult life, and you really do require somebody who's supportive and nurturing and kind. Who doesn't? Real talks. But also, you do. Right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But now you need somebody who's not just going to be like, "Oh, you poor thing. Oh, how I can I help you?" you need somebody who's going to be like, "Well, why are you doing this? Why are you making this?" Somebody who's going to interrupt your narrative because that's the only way through this for you, is to interrupt your narrative because when you're finished playing a set and you're like, "Well, I should⁠—of course I should stay"⁠—why? You really need a therapist who's going to be like, "Why are you staying if you're not having fun? Why?"⁠—help you to figure out the answer to that question because the answer to that question is a whole host of assumptions and shit you've placed on your own shoulders. Did you ever see The Labyrinth with David Bowie?

Guest:              I've only seen parts of it, not all the way through.

Jessica:            First of all, watch The Labyrinth with David Bowie.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            Your kids are the perfect age. Watch it with them. It's spectacular. My God. This is like⁠—just end the reading now. Go watch The Labyrinth. It's a great movie. You must know this. You must have heard this from other people.

Guest:              Yes. Yes. Definitely.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Well, there's a fucking character in it⁠—well, it's not going to work because you haven't seen the movie. My metaphor is ruined, but thank God the topic came up because you need to watch⁠—

Guest:              Because now I'm saved.

Jessica:            Okay. So I'll just put this in your head because at one point of the movie⁠—so it's just like, when you watch it⁠—Jesus. Please, I beg of you, watch the fucking movie, okay? Promise me you'll watch the movie.

Guest:              I promise.

Jessica:            I mean, David Bowie, I mean, is just⁠—I don't know. They gave him a cup. It was weird. It was, like⁠—it's a really good movie. But there's this one part where there's this old woman, and she just puts everything on her back, and she carries everything that she owns on her back. Everything that she owns is on her back, and she's all hunched over. And this is a character⁠—I won't⁠—I'm not spoiling anything by telling you this. Look out for her.

That's what you do. Every expectation, every pressure, every social interaction that failed, every social interaction that succeeded, every projection somebody's placed on you, you carry it all with you. And it's fucking cumbersome. It is painful. Sometimes it makes you feel safe and insulated. It makes you feel insulated from harm, right? Like you know what's expected of you, and you know what to do. And the rest of the time, it's just weight on your back.

Guest:  Yeah.

Jessica:            Nothing that we're talking about, none of the advice I'm giving you, is going to absolve you of anxiety. I want to just be clear. Being absolved of anxiety is a bad goal for you. Finding more effective ways of coping with it, learning how to navigate your life in a way that supports the fact that you have a predisposition towards anxiety⁠—those are good goals⁠—

Guest:              Okay. Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because the reason why you have anxiety is because you're permeable and also because a lot of the things you do don't work for you. Your anxiety tells you, "I'm not happy here. We're still having this conversation. I'm starting to feel anxious because this is no longer in alignment for me at all." You have anxiety because of something, not because of nothing.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            It's just you don't want to deal with the something, so you're like, "Shut up, anxiety. Go away, anxiety. Fuck off, anxiety." So you wouldn't tell me to fuck off, but you tell yourself to fuck off is my guess.

Guest:              Yeah. I just think, "I'll just power through it." I know that I can, so I'll just do that.

Jessica:            Sure. Yeah. Here's a fun fact because you're how old now, 39? 41?

Guest:              41.

Jessica:            Okay. You're on the other side of 40. Okay. Fun fact⁠—astrology teaches us⁠—I think Chinese medicine has a similar theory here. For the first 40 years of your life, you function off of the energy that you're born with. You just function. And then 40 happens, and our lives function off of the energy that we create. Something that happens to those of us who menstruate, who have a cycle and all that kind of shit, through perimenopause, which⁠—in your early 40s, you're probably in perimenopause at some level⁠—where the same bullshit that you've been carrying around with you, the same weight⁠—it's heavier now. The same patterns⁠—they're not the same anymore because you've been doing them for so many years.

                        Now you've been an adult for 20 years. 30, you were an adult for 10. Now it's 20. That's a lot more data. That's a lot more pattern. It's a lot more anxiety to live with.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So, even though for the last 20 years of your adult life, you let your friends cycle over the same conversation over and over and over again, just pulling your energy out of you⁠—not with malicious intent. You've just been kind of maybe a little enabling with people. It was exhausting. It was annoying. It wasn't great, but it was fine. You've crossed a line. That line is called 40. And now it's just not working for you anymore, right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            It's like, why should this be the same? Why hasn't it evolved? Why hasn't it changed? And the way we change our relationships is changing ourselves. That's the way. You can't change other people. You can't be the perfect friend so that your friendships are all good. It's being a better friend to yourself.

Guest:              I feel like this was really helpful. I'm really seeing that there's definitely a discomfort that I have with being uncomfortable or disappointing people in relationships. I'm just⁠—I'm steaming. I'm steaming, Jessica.

Jessica:            Yeah. You're steaming. You're steaming. That's great. Good.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And here's the thing. When you get in the state of the steam room, the steaminess, your system is always saying that you need⁠—when you've got this Neptune in the first house, Neptune square the Sun/Mercury, my patented advice is you need time every day to stare at a blank wall and do nothing. Think nothing. Say nothing. Just empty yourself out. Just let it happen. And when you get to this level of stimulation, that state overcomes you. And so, if what you could do when we end this call is absolutely fucking nothing, that would be ideal. Just do nothing.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            That's the best way to integrate it. Give yourself permission to just let your pores slowly close. Let them close. Then you can look at your complexion and see how it goes, metaphorically, of course. We're going inside. We're going inside. But then you can make that adjustment.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            But if you go from this experience to try to be like, "Okay. I should take notes. What happened? What happened? What should I do?" then you're going to lose it because you're going into an activity mode that betrays your actual needs, which is to⁠—okay. You're on the verge of anxiety. You're not in anxiety, correct? Am I seeing that correctly?

Guest:              Yeah. No, I'm not. I'm not anxious now.

Jessica:            No. But if you push yourself, you could be, really easy, from here. Right?

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            So I'm just saying don't fucking do it. You know what I mean? If you embrace yourself, then you just give yourself permission to just do nothing for a little bit. Maybe putter. Eh, nothing. Trust yourself that it will sink through the layers. You're also going to have this recording forever, so that's there, too. But trust yourself. You retain data when you don't overstimulate yourself. Just don't over stimulate yourself.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            And none of this needs to be fixed, ever. It's about evolving yourself, not fixing yourself. None of this is supposed to happen overnight. You got a couple years here, two, three years. This is the amount of time to focus on this theme. This is the amount of time to really challenge yourself. It's a fertile time for you. It's not an easy time. It's fertile. But it's not supposed to be easy. If it was easy, you would already have done it.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            I mean, that's the thing. Once you hit your 40s, the shit that comes up⁠—if it was easy, you would have done it by now, all of us⁠—you, me, everybody. Nobody has super chill things come up in their 40s. It's the things that you just couldn't grasp or didn't figure out how to do in your 20s and 30s.

Guest:              Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica:            And just wait till you hit 50. You know what I mean? But it is the path. We don't want the path to be in a mall with no impediments and a smooth ground.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            The path is a forest. You know? Let it be brambly. Let there be rocks. Let there be weird sounds and threats. At least it's a forest. It's like a living place. So, when you find yourself in perfectionism, try to be like, "Okay. Where am I in a forest?" not, "Where am I at in a mall?" Yeah. Does that make sense? It was a weird metaphor, but⁠—

Guest:              I mean, I do not want to be in a mall, so it works for me. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay. Okay. Great. I don't either. I fucking hate malls.

Guest:              I do, too.

Jessica:            I mean, listen. There's a time and a place. There is. But we don't want our life path to be like controlled air, controlled ground, controlled⁠—everything's glass and clean. We want it to be something more organic. So, if a forest isn't the vibe, change it up. But I'm trying to give you visual metaphors that are accessible and easy so you can return to them because your habits around how you think is shorthand. So you need shorthand things to shift it.

Guest:              Okay. Yeah. So I pick the rocky path in the forest. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Pick the rocky path in the forest. Yeah.

Guest:              Okay.

Jessica:            The brambles. They're not so bad when you think of it. You might stumble upon blackberries.

Guest:              Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah, which I think are delicious. All right, my dear. That is your reading. I am really glad that we got to do this. And again, I really hope you give yourself time today to just integrate.

Guest:              Thank you. I will. I really appreciate it, Jessica. And I love the podcast so much. Thank you for making it.

Jessica:            Thank you. It is my joy. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.