Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I’m your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I’m an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I’m going to give you your weekly horoscope and no bullshit, mystical advice for living your very best life.

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Jessica: Tony Howard, renowned Virgo, headmaster of Astrology University, astrologer extraordinaire, and charming homosexual. Does that feel like a good intro?

Tony Howard: I’ll take it. I’ll take it.

Jessica:Okay. Welcome back to Ghost of a Podcast, and—

Tony Howard: Thank you so much. It’s so great to be here.

Jessica: It’s cute news. If someone is interested in cuteness, they’re going to be disappointed with this episode because you have come back onto Ghost of a Podcast to help me and everyone else understand Mars out of bounds. Which, I think it’s pretty safe to say, has no cuteness about it, or very little cuteness about it. Does that seem like a fair statement?

Tony Howard: Yeah. I mean, cute really is a better Venus word, isn’t it?

Jessica: I think we can even like throw it into the Moon’s jurisdiction, but Mars—

Tony Howard: Why not.

Jessica: —is not the cutest of all the planets, and I think Mars out of bounds, even less so.

Tony Howard: Well, we could use other words with Mars. I know some Mars out of bounds folks who have Mars out of bounds in their natal charts who are quite sexy, and they really work the sex angle. 

Jessica: I mean, I don’t want to brag or nothing, but I think you’re right. I think you’re right. 

So we’re going to unpack some really important information about what Mars out of bounds is and, in particular, how it is functioning in society ATM because Mars has been out of bounds since—what are the dates of it?

Tony Howard: Mars is out of bounds from—well, it was already out of bounds as we’re recording this. It went out of bounds March 21st, 2021, and it will be out of bounds until May 24th, 2021. 

Jessica: Right. So we’re going to dig into a bunch of shit. But one thing I can say with great confidence is that the planet Mars, especially when we’re looking at mundane astrology and transit astrology, is associated with passions and urgency. It’s associated with fornication and sex and sexiness, but it’s also associated with violence. And, as I like to say because I am obviously a poet, it’s punch, punch, bang, bang. It’s like kicking, shoving, fighting by hand, hand to hand combat, but it’s also gun violence. Also burning your house down, crashing something.

Tony Howard: Yes. Yes, it’s about action and drive and passion. And when our actions are fueled by passion, it can go in all of the directions that you just mentioned. 

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, it can and many others unforetold. But…

Tony Howard: And many others unforetold. Yes.

Jessica: I’m just trying to speak your Virgonean [sp] language, that’s all—trying to use the full breadth of my vocabulary. 

So can you share what Mars out of bounds means and how frequently it happens. Let’s just start there.

Tony Howard: Yeah. So out of bounds is just a way of—it refers to a way of measuring planets that we call declination. So when you look at your birth chart, when you look at your horoscope wheel, if you’ve seen one of those, and you’ve kind of seen where your planets are, that’s according to a specific kind of measurement. 

And then there are other ways of measuring the planets’ placements in the sky—the planets positions in the sky, and declination is one of them, just to keep it simple. And it’s just a totally different measurement from the one you’re looking at in the chart. So it’s another way of looking at and analyzing the planet. 

And out of bounds refers to a planet being at its peak in terms of that measurement, so it’s the highest point it can go, and it’s also higher than the Sun can go. That’s the simplest way I have of saying it. So the planet’s at its peak, and it’s also a bit higher than the Sun can ever get. 

Jessica: I love that. And it sparks the imagination. But before I let you off the hook with your easy to digest break down, if I was in the market of trying to figure out what planets in my birth chart were out of bounds, if any, or what planets are currently out of bounds, how would I go about doing that? Is there a simple answer to that, or is that like a full day workshop?

Tony Howard: No, there’s a simple answer. It’s somewhat simple, and you just have to know where to look. But you can go to astro.com, if you’ve ever gone there, to run your own chart for free—and if you haven’t, you can head over there and do that. There’s a pretty version of astro.com, called astro-charts.com that—

Jessica: —I have that on my site as well, yeah.

Tony Howard: Yeah, it’s prettier, right?

Jessica: Yes, much cuter. Yes.

Tony Howard: We like cuter.

Jessica: We do.

Tony Howard: Astro.com is a great resource. You can do this on both sites, though. But either site, you run your chart, and in astro.com you’re going to click “extended chart selection,” and then you’re going to look for the declination grid. And it’s basically a list of numbers that will make your eyes glaze over. And it’s just a number for each planet. It looks an awful lot like the numbers that you see in the center of your horoscope wheel, where it will be like a 23 number and then minutes—it will be like degrees and minutes—like 23 degrees and 28 minutes, for instance. 

And it will have a little n next to it or a plus sign, and that stands for north and south. You can just ignore that because it doesn’t matter. The number you’re looking for is a number greater than 23 degrees and 26 minutes. 

So if you look up your declination of your Mars—and in the grid it’s usually abbreviated as like decl, so it’s a long word, so they don’t usually spell it out in table because it won't fit, so decl—and if you look in that list of numbers, and your Mars is at 18 degrees and 15 minutes, your Mars is not out of bounds. But if your Mars is at 23 degrees and 29 minutes, it is out of bounds because it’s higher than that number.

Jessica: Sorry to interrupt. Just to clarify, any planet that we’re looking at could be at any degree, but we’re simply talking about the degree of the declination, correct?

Tony Howard: Yeah. So your Mars, like in your horoscope wheel, if you’re looking at that, and your Mars is at like, let’s say, 20 degrees Gemini, if you look at your declination grid, your Mars might be at a totally different number. In the horoscope wheel it might be 20 degrees Gemini, but by declination it might be 23 degrees and 29 minutes, and that means your natal Mars is in Gemini at 20 degrees and out of bounds. So that’s how you would say that.

Jessica: Beautiful. That’s really, really helpful to break down. And if you’re listening to this and you’re just like wait, what? Wait, what? Don’t forget the transcript for this episode will be available on my website, and so you can always look at it, read it, return to it because it’s a little bit of a brain twizzler until you kind of really get it, eh?

Tony Howard: Yes. But at the end of the day, what’s so simple about it is you’re just looking for a number that’s higher than 23 degrees and 26 minutes. And as soon as you know where to look, it takes literally a second to find the number and see if it’s bigger or less than that 23 degrees, 26 minutes.

Jessica: Great. So I’m going to ask you a couple of other questions here, my friend. So the first one is, very broadly speaking—and, of course, it’s different with each unique planet, and there’s so many different factors—but, very broadly speaking, when a planet is out of bounds in a birth chart, what does it mean?

Tony Howard: Yeah, so out of bounds is just like a modifier; it’s a way to add nuance to your description. So in our example we were playing with, if your Mars is in Gemini, and let’s say it’s in the fifth house and it’s square Saturn, none of that’s going to change. You’re still going to interpret all that the same way. But out of bounds is like adding a modifier. So it will be like if your Mars is that Mars in Gemini in the fifth house, but it’s wearing a crazy wig. It’s like—and so that’s what I mean by modifier. It’s still doing its Mars in the fifth house things. It’s still having some troubles with its relationship with Saturn, if it’s square Saturn, but it’s got a unique quality to it. And so, that unique quality—

Jessica: —So is it like an accelerant?

Tony Howard: Yes. What that quality is is it takes us into some out of bounds key words for describing that quality, and some of them are extreme, accentuated, above the bell curve—

Jessica: —Above the bell curve.

Tony Howard: —outside the box.

Jessica: I like that. I like all of those things. But functionally that can go into really creative directions, or it can go, conversely, into kind of destructive, weird directions, eh? It’s not inherently good or bad; it can express itself however it expresses itself.

Tony Howard: Yeah. And one of the reasons I think is because out of bounds planets seem to have a kind of inherent freedom to express whatever they signify in the birth chart. 

So in the case of Mars, if you think about if Mars was given free rein to do whatever it wanted to do, what would it do? And then, of course, you want to put that in the context of your Mars in your birth chart. If your Mars is square Saturn, you might have a bit of natural limit setting kind of built in or some roadblocks. Every time you try to do your Mars, Saturn comes in there and is like, “Wait. Stop,” you know? But if your Mars is, on the other hand, trining Uranus, and Mars says go, and you already went. 

Jessica: Right. Okay, great. This is really helpful. Now, so that’s like just a quick peak at Mars—Mars or any planet out of bounds in the birth chart. 

Now, let’s get into transiting Mars out of bounds. How frequently does it happen, and, yeah, and what does it mean?

Tony Howard: So Mars goes out of bounds about once every year. The length of time it’s out of bounds is somewhat random. Sometimes it’s about a month. Sometimes it’s two months. It’s never exactly the same amount. Sometimes the periods are longer than others. Sometimes Mars will be out of bounds and Retrograde, if you’ve heard of that, at the same time. 

Jessica: Yikes.

Tony Howard: And that’s kind of like a double whammy. Retrogrades slows Mars’ cycle down, so it will also—the out of bounds will be kind of both accentuated and sometimes extended a bit too. But it does happen once a year, so it’s a common occurrence. 

And it tends to happen in certain signs more than others, so there are some signs it doesn’t really go out of bounds in. And the ones that are most common are going to be Cancer, Capricorn, Gemini, Sagittarius. 

Jessica: Whoop! I just said whoop for no reason. I felt like it needed to be accentuated. 

Tony Howard: I think you heard Capricorn in the mix, and you were like, “Whoop!”

Jessica: Yeah, that’s true. I was just like, yes, slash, oh no, okay, depending on the vibes. Okay, cool. 

So, and what signs does it never happen in?

Tony Howard: Generally speaking, planets aren’t out of bounds in Aries and Libra and Virgo and Pisces. 

Jessica: Lucky those planets, I suppose, in those signs. Although could be not lucky. I feel like I keep on flip flopping between out of bounds being amazing and slightly scary because I feel like it’s kind of both because it’s like that planet accentuated, so it depends on so many factors. 

But I’ve kind of digressed. So we come back to one of the first questions I asked you—is the date of the current Mars out of bounds, which is March 21st through May 24th of 2021. And there’s something particularly special about this Mars out of bounds that I want you to tell the class about. And I think there’s just so much to say about it, so I’m really excited to dig deep and unpack this.

Tony Howard: I want to return to this idea of freedom. The planet has a quality of freedom that’s a bit unusual. And I like to just differentiate this from thinking about a planet having Uranus aspect, for instance, where when planets have—if we have Mars square Uranus or Mars opposite Uranus, we often see the person with that natal chart reactive—reacting against something. So they are standing against something. They are fighting against something. They’re saying. “You can't restrict my freedom. Don’t tell me what to do.” And that’s got the Uranus quality, where you’re reacting against something. 

Whereas an out of bounds planet has a kind of freedom of expression where they already know they’re free on that level, and they aren’t reacting against something; they just have the sense that I’m going to do what I’m going to do, and I don’t really care if you think it's weird. I didn’t even ask for your opinion. 

Jessica: Ah, so it’s almost like there’s a—like what you’re suggesting is like a certain level of embodiment around the energies of that out of bounds planet that can lend itself to eccentricities because it’s so self-oriented instead of orienting in response or reaction to others or circumstance. Does that sound right? 

Tony Howard: Yeah, you could go there. One thing I often talk about is there can often be what, from an outsider’s point of view, looks like a lack of checks and balances on the expression of that planet. It just does what it wants. It doesn’t have an internal kind of maybe you shouldn’t do that kind of system or voice. All things considered, if the planet’s in aspect to Saturn, that can turn up the volume on that experience a little bit. 

But, in general, if you think about someone like Bjork, who’s one of my favorite examples for out of bounds because Bjork has three planets out of bounds: Mercury, Venus, and Mars. And there’s a really great quote from Bjork at the age of five where she essentially just says, “I figured out that I was a little bit different early on, and I realized I could just do what I was going to do or always be limiting myself according to what other people thought I should do, and I just realized early on that wouldn’t be any fun, and so I’m just going to do my own thing.” Yeah. And she had that realization. That’s a realization some people get at their Uranus opposition in their forties, but she had it at like age five. 

Jessica: Because she has so many out of bounds planets.

Tony Howard: Yeah. It’s an internal, kind of natural—and that can—it can lead to amazing innovations with Mars. People with Mars out of bounds can do really cool, innovative things. They can be really successful in competitive fields because they have that edge. But they can also do really off the wall things and make some choices that we have to say are just not great.

Jessica: Hmm, absolutely. This is really interesting. Before we unpack this fully, because we’re going to be talking about current events and some of which are a little scary because they involve violence, it’s worth noting something that you’re really speaking to, Tony, which is how when we look at predictive astrology or mundane astrology, we’re looking at cycles and trends based on historical data and what we underst-,—whether that’s historical data in terms of like actual human history or historical data based on astrological research and investigation, right. So we’re not talking to God and his four henchmen, and we don’t know for sure, if I may. Does that sound like a safe characterization? I don’t know if it’s safe, but…

Tony Howard: Yeah, but accurate, yes. Because astrological prediction is—or forecasting, if you want to call it that—is really just educated guess work at the end of the day. And by educated, we’re referring to what you just described as that we’re looking back as astrologers at previous cycles. We’re looking for trends and themes and patterns, and it’s really no different from weather forecasting or economic forecasting. It’s the same kind of thing. Although those two fields have a lot more respect, for some reason, than we do for reasons unhithered [sp] toward unknown, what is the word you used earlier?

Jessica: Unhithered toward is perfect. I’m going to say that is exactly what it is—it is unhithered toward. And, yeah, that’s right.

Tony Howard: But anyway, it’s just weather forecasting in that we—based on what’s happened before when this cold front meets this warm front, this tends to happen. It’s just like that with astrological prediction or forecasting. We look back at the last time Saturn and Pluto were conjunct and we saw this type of event, and then we predict that this kind of theme is going to be relevant during this period of history. 

And with this out of bounds cycle, when we look back at previous times that Mars has been out of bounds—this time it’s in the sign of Gemini, which is, as we pointed out earlier, one of the common signs. But when it’s in Gemini, and we’re talking about events in the US, which is what we’re going to talk about today, it’s also interacting with the US chart, which we’ll talk about in a minute. 

But we can look back at those previous events and see a trend. We can see themes emerge. We can see a storyline that gets repeated every time the planet comes back to that same place. And that’s what’s really interesting, and that’s where we can, hopefully, learn from the past and use the past to make decisions about the present—informed decisions. That’s what we mean by educated guess work.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s also a really valuable tool. Because I know a lot of people listening to the podcast are activists and work in politics and other forms of kind of like social justice oriented movements, and I’m really of the mind that astrology’s an invaluable tool for understanding where we stand, you know, where we’re at and using that information and leveraging it for our expectations for what is reasonable, possible, likely to achieve in this moment, and to help it buoy us for a continued, sustained efforts. Astrology is really an untapped resource in that regard, and hopefully that’s changing pretty quickly. But yeah…

So let’s get into this mysterious Mars out of bounds in Gemini and how it is related to the United States of Merica [sp].

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Tony Howard: In the chart for the United States of Merica—well, the chart that I use is called the Sibly chart.

Jessica: Yeah. It’s the most conventionally used.

Tony Howard: It’s one of the most common charts.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Howard: Yeah. And there are several charts that only say there are several charts for the United States. Everybody disagrees on the time. Most people generally agree within the realm of a few dates. There are some people who kind of go far afield of July 4th, 1776, but most people will use that date and then disagree on the time. 

When we’re looking at anything but the Moon and the houses, everything else is on that day is going to be pretty much in the same spot. So Mars is going to be in its same spot no matter which time you use, so at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter which time you use. But we’re using the Sibly chart, and in that chart, on that day, Mars is in Gemini and out of bounds at 21 degrees Gemini. 

And, again, just if you’re learning this technique, that 21 degrees is not the declination number—that’s the number you see in your little horoscope wheel, right. So 21 degrees Gemini in the natal chart for the United States. 

Well, it turns out we kind of have a Mars Return right now, and that just means Mars is returned to the same place that it was in that chart. So we’re talking about the US chart. So Mars has returned to 21 Gemini during this cycle, and that was, I think, a few days ago. 

Jessica: So let’s just take a moment to pause and kind of like drink in this actually really substantive thing you just shared with us. Which is within the Sibly chart, within the United States birth chart, essentially, we as a nation have Mars out of bounds. And as a nation, that really—that matches, doesn’t it? It’s like this idea of like how we are in the world and how we are incredibly innovative and how the origins of our country were very radical at the time, eh? And also, we’re a pretty damn violent country.

Tony Howard: You think? 

Jessica: I don’t know. But, yes, I do think so, very much. And it’s interesting because we’re the, quote, land of the free, and that liberty is a concept, I think, we can pull Uranus, Jupiter, and Mars into the conversation about liberty from an astrological viewpoint. 

But it’s just really interesting to me to learn—which, of course, I have learnt this from you—that the United States Mars is out of bounds. I didn’t know that. But it makes perfect sense. 

And then one other thing I just kind of want to like pause to like pull out and say is whenever then we have Mars hitting that 21st degree or around that 21st degree of a mutable sign, we have a conversation to be talking about. Or, essentially, whenever any planet hits that 21st or right around that 21st degree of a mutable sign—which is, of course, Gemini, Sagittarius, Pisces, and Virgo—any planet hitting around that 21st degree of a mutable sign, it’s stimulating our Mars out of bounds as a nation. So when we’re talking about us a nation, we’re not talking about individuals; we’re talking about our systems, our society. Is that right, Tony? Did I nail that?

Tony Howard: That’s exactly right. And when you look back at the transits of Mars to those points, it’s very interesting what happens. I mean, some of you might have noticed that violence erupts in the United States on a regular basis.

Jessica: Yes. Yes.

Tony Howard: But the United States has a history—a long history of violence, all types of violence—personal violence, systemic violence. And whenever Mars goes out of bounds, and it seems especially so—I’m in the middle of doing this research, but in the preliminary stages of the research, every time Mars hits one of those trigger points and is out of bounds—and that’s going to be especially in Gemini and Sag, but it also happens in Cancer and Capricorn. And we’re talking about that 21 degrees to 21 degrees Gemini or 21 degrees Sag—there are major events that kind of stand out in our history that describe these peak periods. And so that word peak is a really great out of bounds word as well.

Jessica: Mars, in my view anyways, and I’m curious if you have a different opinion, Mars governs prisons; it’s like a punishing place that we put people, and we put them to work. And I have a lot of thoughts about prison. And I think we can look to Saturn, and we can look to Pluto—

Tony Howard: —I go to Saturn/Pluto in combo, I think, yeah. Yeah. 

Jessica: Yeah, it’s a tricky thing. But the United States is—I mean, we’re known globally for imprisoning people. It’s a huge industry, and it’s a huge part of our unfortunate reality. And I’m also—I mean, I can't help but be curious about when Mars gets hit at that out of bounds point, are there themes around imprisonment or about our prison system? 

Tony Howard: I haven’t seen that one stand out. Some of the standout events I have seen so far—and looking back at a—you know, I’m focused on the United States, and so far, I’ve just been focused on the last hundred years. I studied twentieth century American history in college, so that’s kind of my area of expertise in terms of history, but I will eventually look outside that as well. But I just wanted to name that. 

But looking at that hundred-year period—civil rights issues? Big, big, big standout. Major events in US history over the last hundred years, including the Moon landing, but the JFK assassination, the 911, the World Trade Center bombing before 911—these major events that you look back in the history and can name. 

If I just ask you to name, what are the top ten most violent events in the United States history that you can think of? A lot of those, if not most of them or all of them, will take place during Mars out of bounds period. And often, like in the case of the JFK assassination, that happened when Mars was at exactly at 21 degrees Sagittarius opposing the natal Mars, and transiting Mars was also out of bounds.

Jessica: Interesting.

Tony Howard: But the civil rights issues, violence, violence against protestors, that’s a theme that stands out. And not all protests where there’s been a violence response took place during a Mars out of bounds period, but some key ones, major ones, did. 

Jessica: And it’s interesting because when you name protesting, protesting is a kind of like embodied, passionate, urgent response to injustice or oppression, generally violent oppression and injustice. So it’s really interesting to hear you say that.

Tony Howard: I mean, I put the protesting energy under the Saturn/Uranus aspects, especially for the United States—that’s a really common theme. You can trace this back to the Civil War when there are Saturn/Uranus aspects, and that can be the conjunction and the square, opposition etc. Mostly we are focusing on the hard aspects here. 

We can predict that protests will—the volume will be turned up on protesting in the United States about something. We can't always predict what the protests are about; we can just predict that people are in the streets protesting about something. 

The Mars out of bounds piece comes with those kind of more violent correctives or responses to the protestors in certain instances, but the protesting in general, I think, falls a bit more under the Saturn/Uranus cycle, which we’re in right now.

Jessica: Which we’re in right now.

Tony Howard: Which is why we’re having this conversation.

Jessica: Right. Right. Right.

Tony Howard: Because against—with all this increase in shootings that we’re experiencing right now in the United States, that’s all happening against the backdrop of this social unrest that’s part of the context of the Saturn/Uranus cycle.

Jessica: And, I mean, arguably the Saturn/Pluto cycle that started last year and the Pluto Return forthcoming. I mean, there’s so many—it’s really hard when looking at things like protests or civil rights movements or any one major thing to look at it in a vacuum. And if you’re listening, it’s tempting to try to point to one thing astrologically and be like that’s the reason, and there can be truth to that.

Tony Howard: That’s the reason, yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. But it’s really—it’s like cooking a soup or a stew. It’s one ingredient may be instrumental or might change everything, but it really is the—it’s how it all cooks down together. And this is part of why prediction with astrology with mundane events in particular, it’s like you can get the solid flavor, but it’s hard to get like what’s going to be in each spoonful because there’s too many variables. 

Tony Howard: Yeah. And I think great mundane astrologers are able to pull a few of these cycles in mind at once and weave them together into the narrative that’s emerging in the collective. 

But getting back to this current cycle, and if we think about—if we look back at previous cycles, you know, I mentioned earlier that there’s a kind of a civil rights theme and story. There are things like, you know, JFK, when he took some action towards—affirmative action in terms of the federal government where he kind of instigated some of those policies, that took place during a Mars out of bounds period. And, as you might know from looking at history, white racist America just didn’t say, “Yeah, that sounds like a great idea.” So there was a little bit of a negative Marsy [sp] violent, in some cases, reaction to that. 

When schools were being integrated and six-year-old Ruby Bridges was first brought to this school for integration, that happened during a Mars out of bounds.

Jessica: Mmm-Hmm.

Tony Howard: Yeah, and so then that one happened on November 14th, 1960, while Mars was out of bounds in Cancer. 

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that in this current cycle right now, Mars is in Gemini. But Mars—we’re in a long Mars out of bounds period, so this one’s a little bit unusual in that it’s about a two-month long Mars out of bounds period. And Mars will be in Gemini for the first half. It will be in Cancer for the second half. In general, most of May is going to be Mars out of bounds in Cancer. 

Jessica: So we can expect then, in May, for these Martian themes that are playing out around gun violence and other Martian themes, we can expect it to change flavor, is what you’re saying.

Tony Howard: Yes. Yes. Right now, I think the vibe, for me personally, and you can jump in here with your own thoughts here, but with Mars being in Gemini out of bounds, I think Mars in Gemini increases that stress vibe. 

Gemini when it’s out of balance can be stressed out and a bit frantic and a bit scattered. That energy, that’s Mars’ energy right now. So how we’re taking action, what we’re doing. I’m just thinking about my own—the actions I’ve taken in the last month, and I’ve been a bit frantic and scattered and all over the place myself. And it’s led to a certain kind of tiredness and stress, right. 

And when we get out of balance in that way, we don’t make our best choices. When we’re tired and stressed out and overloaded—overwhelmed is a good one for Mars in Gemini as well—you don’t make your best choices. 

That will shift a bit, and then we’ll be seeing a bit more maybe of some of the shadow Cancer side where some of our actions that we take are emotionally driven. We lash out in anger, or we get vindictive: we feel hurt, so we want to hurt the person who hurt us. That’s the lowest functioning version. 

We’re not saying that all people with Mars in Cancer are like that—of course. We’re just saying that on your worst day, when you don’t have any of your resources, and you’re kind of like—we all have bad days. We make bad choices, and I’m just describing what that might look like. 

So the tone will shift, but I—we’ve been seeing a crazy increase—you had that stat earlier, I’m not sure if you shared it, Jessica, about the numbers of shootings we’ve had just in the last month.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, as of Sunday the 18th, I believe it was, of April, there were 45 shootings in the United States in one month. And then on—I’d recorded—I’d said that on my podcast, and then woke up to find two more mass shootings that day. So I think we’re at 47 or 48 as of today, and you and I are recording this on the 19th of April. But the day’s still young, unfortunately. 

I mean, this is really just a really dramatic presentation of gun violence and mass shootings. And it’s interesting because when I think of that Mars in Gemini out of bounds that we’re going through right now, I can't help but see it in concert of two other events. 

One is the larger Saturn/Uranus square, which I obsessively talk about all the time because of the psychological stress and strain that it provokes and how that on the kind of back of all that Saturn/Pluto energy we were going through in 2020, it’s just—I feel like so many people, so many masses of people are just waiting for the last straw for their mental health. And this thing of snapping is so Saturn/Uranus. 

And then when we add to that, something that you and I were talking about right before we started recording, Neptune’s involvement. You know, when we talk about Neptune in general it can be associated with fanaticism because it’s about kind of like this puritanical vision of things—it can be very idealistic. There’s like—and I don’t know if this is me jumping the gun to talk about it in the context of Mars, but it is right now, I believe, at 22 of Pisces, is that right?

Tony Howard: Yep. Neptune’s exactly at 22 of Pisces. It’s exactly opposite the placement in the US birth chart, which is 22 Virgo.

Jessica: And square to the United States natal Mars out of bounds, which it is, again, right at this degree. So we have this like idealism and the kind of disassociation that I think United States is really good at being in that weird, at times, very unhealthy sweet spot. 

And then when you’re talking about Mars moving into Cancer out of bounds, you know, when we’re looking at mundane astrology, Mars in Cancer can be associated with nationalism, and it can be associated with clannishness; it does worry me, you know, in the context of gun violence and all of these things. 

And I think from a humane perspective, part of what motivates people to act in violent ways during this period, and in particular during this period with all those things we just named, is a sense of losing control and seeking to lash out in efforts to gain control or dominion. Does that make sense to you, as I see it through the planets? 

Tony Howard: Yeah, I mean, if you’re putting things in the greater context, I think one of the things that’s happening with a lot of the shootings though is—and it’s my hope that this period that we look at here, the last month and potentially for the next month, that is has bookends on it; that it’s a bit of an extreme blip because Mars is out of bounds. And in some of these individuals’ cases it’s just people flying off the handle. It’s just people losing their shit on an individual level. It’s just people losing their shit. 

In the context of that, there are also these stories around systemic racism and violence in those contexts where they’re really are part of this longer trend and longer cycle, and that’s one of the things that has been interesting looking back at the last hundred years of Mars out of bounds transits with the United States in that context. 

And, in this sense, Mars is acting as a trigger. And it’s triggering something that you just named unfolding in that larger context of the Neptune transit and the Saturn/Uranus transit. This specific trigger is finite. It’s out of bounds in Gemini this month. It’s out of bounds in Cancer next month, and then it goes back in bounds, and it changes signs, and it keeps moving through the zodiac. 

And as Mars returns back to this place, while it’s in Gemini where it’s a Mars Return for the US, so to speak, and this happens frequently, we know, but in the context of that Jessica just described, it’s unusual. 

It’s in the context of, for instance, Saturn/Uranus, if we just stick there, that doesn’t happen every year—that’s specific to this year in those signs. Saturn being in Aquarius square Uranus in Taurus, that’s specific to this year. And two years from now, that will shift, and we’ll be talking about something else on this podcast. 

But Mars is going to go out of bounds again in Gemini more like clockwork, and it’s going to act as a trigger for whatever themes are arising then. 

But every time it returns, in my opinion, it’s a chance for the US to look at its own Mars out of bounds in Gemini issues. It’s a chance for us to look at gun violence. It’s a chance for us to talk about gun control because we’re seeing examples of the shadow side of having Mars out of bounds in Gemini, where we have an itchy trigger finger, and we love our guns, and we love shooting them and do not take our guns away and all that. 

Well, okay, if you have that stance, Mars out of bounds comes back to the place it was in the US chart, and we have a chance to review those assumptions and review those ideas and think is that really a good intention? Can we do something else with that Mars out of bounds in Gemini?

Jessica: Yeah, and it’s interesting because we’re talking about Mars, and we have yet to mention masculinity. And I think that that’s a meaningful part, of course, of Mars and of the United States and the role of maleness or that kind of archetype, that American, male archetype that American males often really like to embody. 

And it’s interesting because something I’ve been thinking about a lot is when are we going to actually categorize male violence against women as a hate crime? Because right now, we call it domestic, which is really fucked up. It’s a fucking hate crime. 

Tony Howard: Totally.

Jessica: It is a hate crime, and at a certain point—and I’m starting to cultivate this idea that perhaps it will happen or something pivotal will occur around a Mars out of bounds or some transit to the nation’s Mars out of bounds to actually get that changed legislatively. And, of course, Mars isn’t necessarily related to legislation, but I think that the conversation around masculinity and toxic masculinity is a big one in this country, and it needs to become a bigger one, IMO. I don’t know if that’s a departure, but…

Tony Howard: Yes, because we—not a departure at all. It needs to become bigger because we haven’t resolved it yet. And just like transits in your personal chart, they give you a chance to revisit your own issues and come to some healing with them, ultimately. I mean, that’s a best-case scenario. Sometimes we just act them out in the worst way, and the healing comes later when we review our past, and we’re like should I really have done that?

Jessica: Oh, shit. Now life is really, really hard, and I have to bear account for what I did or didn’t do. 

Yeah, and I think that when we look at a country, you know, when we’re looking at a nation, we’re looking at masses of people, but we’re also looking at the government. We’re looking at masses of people may disagree with something, but what the nation decides to do is what the nation does. And I think this is where it’s a little bit conceptual looking at the chart of a nation because we’re not looking at the chart of each individual in that nation. We’re looking at this nation in the context of the global community.

Tony Howard: Yeah. Yeah. And so, the out of bounds periods for the United States—because Mars is out of bounds in the US chart—they’re really periods, I think, when we see a bit more acting out. And so, the response to those events, whether it’s 9/11, whether it’s, for instance, the when Rodney King was brutalized by police officers, that happened in 1991 while Mars was out of bounds in Gemini, so the acting out happens during the out of bounds period, and then the response to that, the healing that can potentially come after that, that’s much later—that’s not part of the out of bounds period. The out of bounds period is where we’re acting out our Mars for good or not for good. 

Also, during Mars out of bounds period, we see great advances and innovations and cool things happening because Mars is unleashed to do its best or do its worst.

Jessica: Yeah. 

Tony Howard: Yeah. And so, you know, the Rodney King event is still resonant with the events that are happening today, with the public discourse today because we still haven’t healed the conditions that led to that event in this country, and—

Jessica: —Policing is inherently racist. And there is a way that what happened in that Mars out of bounds, but which also coincidently is the last time Saturn was in Aquarius, so there’s another layer to look at, we actually haven’t achieved any healing or progress, any real meaningful progress since that fucking time. So it’s really to your point of ideally we learn our lessons, but not necessarily. 

And I think that currently in 2021, we are starting to have more of a national conversation about police abolition and police reform, like substantive defunding or abolishment of the police. I don’t know how far we’re going to get, but it’s not surprising to me that that conversation is happening in mainstream media during this Mars out of bounds in a way that I haven’t actually heard it before. 

And I think that conversation really started in greater earnest when Saturn hit Aquarius in 2020—that was the moment that that happened, and this is something that I think is a big part of this Saturn in Aquarius transition or transit, rather. But, in particular, understanding Mars out of bounds’ role to play is just fascinating.

Tony Howard: Yeah, it is. It is. And I like to think that there’s been a tiny bit of progress, honestly, since 1991. One of the things that I noticed, and I talked it up to Saturn in Aquarius too, Jessica, which last year was, if you compare the response by the public, the response by the authorities in charge of filing charges against the police etc., very, very different last year with—

Jessica: —Radically different, yes.

Tony Howard: —George Floyd. Radically different. So there was an improvement. There wasn’t an improvement in terms of the conditions that led to the violence by the police, so that still exists. That problem wasn’t solved, but what changed was the public response, and then also there was a bit more accountability introduced. 

And we all have hopes that we’ll see some real accountability this time with George Floyd. I think the nation is watching these trials with the hopes that we’re going to really see accountability this time. And I think with Saturn being in Aquarius we just might. 

Jessica: Yeah. And it’s interesting because here we’re getting into maybe some of also our personality differences as described by our birth charts of our optimism and our take on events. 

But also, this is a really interesting thing because, again, we’re talking about Mars out of bounds, and we’re talking about, inevitably, police, and we’re talking about violence, right. And I think what’s really important is while, yes, the public response is different and the willingness and passion and urgency of the populous to stand up, hit the streets, to say no, to say this is not just, that is radically different than it was in the 1990s, but what isn’t different is the function of the police, the violence of the police, the power of the police. 

I would say, arguably, they have more weapons, they have more power, and the imprisonment of Black and Brown people in this nation, it’s worse. And the prison industry is more powerful. 

And so, this is where when we look at these things, it’s really—it’s complicated talking about something like the chart of a nation because we are both talking about the Soul of the nation and the populous, but we’re also talking about the governing structures—we’re talking about them both at once, and we’re seeing them both at once in the event chart of the United States, in that Sibly chart. 

And so, this is where looking at mundane astrology does require some flexibility because we’re looking at both—all of these things at once in the Mars or in any given point on whatever topic, right. So it’s complicated. 

And I am as a very, very Capricorn person, I am predisposed to want to look at the worst of all the things because, to me, I have this nature where I’m like well, if I look at the shitty, difficult things, then I know what to work on. The positive things don’t need my attention; I just want to focus on the shitty things. I don’t mean to brag, and I don’t think anyone should do what I do at home; however, that is absolutely my nature. So it’s all layers and complication.

Tony Howard: Yeah, definitely. And I think it’s so important to look at the shadow side of life with eyes wide open. You and I both have a bit of a Plutonian approach that way.

Jessica: A little bit. Little bit, yeah, just a little.

Tony Howard: Due to some—hither to an unmentioned—

Jessica: —I just like to call them my unmentionables.

Tony Howard: —aspects in our natal charts.

Jessica: We just call them our unmentionables, and we—yes, and we let the people guess, yes.

Tony Howard: That’s right. But, yes, I think looking at these things with eyes wide open. And also, I have no illusions that the skies will open up and the wrong doers will be justly corrected, and everything will get better. No, this is an old, old story in the United States. Newsflash: it’s not going to get resolved this year. It’s not just going to work out, right. 

But I do believe that we have an opportunity to make steps toward that progress this year, and it’s a time when the volume gets turned up, where we can make three steps forward instead of one step forward or, you know—we’ve also gone backwards sometimes, right. But I don’t think this is a backslide year in terms of that kind of progress with some of those issues. 

I think it’s a backslide year though in the sense that we have to say that with this increase in gun violence and with everything we know about the—we could talk about the NRA here and with the militia movement, and all of that is part of this as well. We could see some of those stories kind of pop up in the next month as well. 

And we are definitely going to see the NRA story pop up because we’re already seeing, of course, in the wake of all these shootings, calls for gun control, and which have been ignored for the last few years. And right now, I don’t know that we’ll make progress on that issue, but just turning up the volume on that conversation can maybe set the stage for change to happen in the future.

Jessica: Yeah. And I think what we’re seeing with this out of bounds Mars hitting the nation’s Mars is we’re seeing the volume turned up on what is, and I think that that’s an important thing. We’re not getting new data. We might be having new experiences that are exacerbating preexisting data, and I think that’s an important thing to kind of understand in this conversation. 

And the longer I sit with this information, and the longer that I consider all the data points, I can’t help but wonder about May and the insurrectionists and the highly armed, violent, angry white nationalist faction of the United States. Because in mundane astrology, in its kind of least healthy presentation, the sign of Cancer, the zodiac sign of Cancer, is associated with nationalism and clannishness, which—it’s not great in this context and in the context of what’s happening in this country. 

And, as I will always say to everyone, when it comes to either birth charts or mundane astrology, astrology’s not guess work. It is wise and appropriate to look at the news, to ask questions, to understand what is happening, and then to apply what we know about astrology to the facts. 

And so, this is where having a highly armed populous and a very diverse populous with very different values can become alarming. And I don’t say this to frighten anyone. This is already happening, so it’s not like oh, shit, what does that look like? It looks like today and yesterday and last month and the month before. It looks like the last 50, 100, 300 years. 

And I think we are in a brand-new place in many ways. And it’s hard for me to resist the urge to want to talk about technology and the role of technology, both in filming cops and also in the role of technology in organizing for all manner of social movements—the ones that I’m really a fan of and the ones that I’m terrified of, both. And so there is a lot to say, and that’s for another conversation and a different planet perhaps. 

But I do want to—because I know we don’t have a lot more time. Tony, you’re a Goddamn peach for teaching me and us about Mars out of bounds, which, BT Dubs, you’re writing a book on the topic, aren’t you?

Tony Howard: Yes. Yes.

Jessica: And it will be the definitive book on out of bounds planets that every budding astrologer and professional will need to have in their library—is that not a fact?

Tony Howard: Spoken like a triple Capricorn. I might not have said it that way with all of my Virgo ways.

Jessica: That’s right. That’s right. We’d never say that about myself, so I’m saying it for you. Okay, you will need this book once it’s out because there’s not a lot of data out there about out of bounds planets. It’s kind of—actually it reminds of interceptions in that it’s such a useful tool, and it’s not an uncommon thing, but there’s not a lot of data out there yet about it. So everybody subscribe to Tony Howard’s news feeds, and whenever his book comes out, you will purchase it, and you will delight in it.

Tony Howard: Well, thanks so much for inviting me on the show. I mean, obviously, you and I could do a whole other hour on this topic.

Jessica: I mean, we almost did.

Tony Howard: Maybe we can talk about it again.

Jessica: Yeah, I would love to. 

And then I also wanted to check in and see—I know you have a ton of research with past dates when Mars was out of bounds and it hit the US chart in a meaningful way. Is that something you’d be down to share, if we can throw it in the transcripts or make it available to listeners? 

Tony Howard: Yeah, for sure. It’s incomplete in the sense that I have six planets in Virgo and a Mercury/Pluto conjunction, and nothing is ever complete for me, but I do have a lot of data points I can share, for sure.

Jessica: Okay, great. So what we’ll do, if you’re interested in this topic, and you want to learn more, Tony generously will open source some of this research (*copied at the bottom of this transcript), understanding it is not complete, and we will make sure to attach that to the transcript of this episode, which will be available on my website a couple few days after the episode comes out, so you can look for it there. 

And, again, you know, follow Tony, and you can listen to Tony’s podcast, The Astrology University Podcast. You can also learn with Tony at Astrology University because you know I don’t fucking teach, but Tony does. And if you want to learn details, learn from somebody with so much Virgo in their chart that people call them Virgo as a nickname. And I think that’s maybe only me. Am I the only one who does that to you? 

Tony Howard: No. No, you’re not the only one. This won't work for your podcast, but I actually had a friend with a Sagittarius Moon—if you know astrology, there’s a square between Virgo and Sagittarius—and she had a hand gesture for Virgo where it looks like the—

Jessica: —Star Trek.

Tony Howard: It looks like the—yeah, like the Star Trek.

Jessica: “Live long and prosper”—that’s what that means.

Tony Howard: What is Spock? Spock is a…

Jessica: Vulcan.

Tony Howard: Vulcan, yes. The Vulcan hand signal for, “Live long and prosper,” where your fingers are pointing up, and it kind of makes a V, she would call that Virgo good. And then she would turn it upside down for Virgo bad. 

Jessica: Okay, so first of all, I need you to know that that’s going into the podcast because I literally am obsessed with this whole topic, but I feel like you’ve just started a trend—"Live long and prosper” being Virgo good, and then upside down, Virgo bad. I mean, every Virgo and the people who love them are going to adopt this. You watch, you damn trend setter, you watch. Okay, so—

Tony Howard: I have to give props to Alison Fox [sp] here. And, you know, Virgo good means like the Virgo is helping you when you ask them to help you. Virgo bad is Virgo is helping you when you have not asked them to help you.

Jessica: Or you’ve begged them to stop.

Tony Howard: And you don’t want their help.

Jessica: When you’ve begged them to stop, I say with all the love in my heart. 

Okay, well, I cannot thank you enough for joining me and helping me understand this more and sharing so much of your research and data. And, yeah, thank you for doing so. And I hope you are safe and healthy during this fucking Mars out of bounds moment.

Tony Howard: You too. And blessings to all of you listeners out there. Thanks for listening to our convo and what we’re holding space for your safety as well. But do some cool things with your Mars out of bounds too. 

Jessica: Yeah. Do some cool shit.

Tony Howard: If you’re feeling the call, yeah.

Jessica: Also, have se—have weird sex, have passionate sex. We forgot to say that, but it deserves to be said. Pound one out.

Tony Howard: Yeah, if that’s—yeah.

Jessica: Pound one out. What you may not know is that it’s easy to make Tony Howard blush, and I just did it. 

Tony Howard: I’m totally red right now, yes.

Jessica: You are. You are. That’s going into the podcast. Okay, thanks. Bye.

Tony Howard: Bye.