Welcome to Ghost of a Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Lanyadoo. I'm an astrologer, psychic medium, and animal communicator, and I'm going to give you your weekly horoscope and no-bullshit mystical advice for living your very best life.

Jessica:      Leon, welcome to the podcast. What would you like a reading about?

Leon:               Thank you. I am a pre-op, pre-hormone transmasc person with a ton of Cancerian placements and energy in my chart. As is expected, I do love nurturing and caring for people in that crab-like way. Most astrology books and resources I've encountered have described Cancerian energy as motherly. However, as a transmasc person, I find this very dysphoric. Much of traditional astrology is like this, I feel, focusing on concepts such as the divine feminine and masculine that I find very alienating as someone who is also Nonbinary.

                        I'm also very afraid of mothering people in romantic relationships, as I was raised to do so societally and in my family. I'd like to see your perspective on how I can embrace and express Cancerian energy, traditionally framed as motherly/mommy-like, in a way that is more gender-affirming and empowering. Thank you.

Jessica:            It's such a good question because I really, really, really, really strongly dislike the association with mommying and, yes, divine femininity and Cancer. It really rubs me very much the wrong way. And I know for a lot of people, they resonate with it, and that's great. But you've never heard me use those descriptors because I really don't like them a lot. I am with you, and I am, of course, a Capricorn. I'm not a Cancer.

                        But I will say straight out the gate that when it comes to woo, unfortunately, a lot of times people really fall back on this divine feminine and divine masculine thing, which I think in the hearts of more progressive people who use those things is we all have the divine feminine, and we all have the divine masculine within us. But it's still holding this concept of femininity and masculinity as woman and man. It's still really binary, and it still kind of falls back into somewhat traditional gender roles, which gives me the ick.

Leon:               Yeah. And the way people that I've seen on TikTok⁠/Instagram, especially⁠, seem to talk about it in this very intense way that almost seems to really double down on gender stereotypes, which doesn't make sense to me when speaking about spiritual concepts, which are completely different in my head. And I don't necessarily disagree with femininity or not relate to femininity, but it's the specific she/her, feminine, mommy, "I'm going to mother you/nurture you" kind of vibe that I don't get along with. Yeah.

Jessica:            So there's two things I want to say. Just on a personal level, I can share that when I, in the San Francisco Bay Area⁠—very woo place⁠—in the '90s was looking for psychic schools, which⁠—I never ended up going to a psychic school⁠—I went into a couple different places. I will not name names. But they were all divine feminine/divine masculine. They were all so⁠—and this was before we used the terms "Binary" or "Nonbinary." It's before we had the language that we have now.

                        But it's just always felt both culturally not a fit for me, but also, it feels⁠—I agree with you. There's something that feels like it's missing the mark in a meaningful way when we're dealing with spirituality. Now, that said⁠—I'm going to quickly share your birth information. We're not sharing your fucking exact birth stuff, but you're a Virgo born in 1996 in Elmhurst, New York, at 1:20 a.m. True talks.

Leon:               Yep.

Jessica:            True talks. Okay.

Leon:               I am a Virgo. I had to be born on a zero minute.

Jessica:            It was really important to you as a Virgo. I respect that.

Leon:               It was really important to me. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You got it started. That said, you've got a Moon/Ascendant conjunction. It's nice and tight. It's within a degree. But the Moon is in the twelfth house. So, first of all, fucking very Cancer. Straight out the gate, very Cancer. You've got your Mars at an anaretic degree at 28 degrees of Cancer in the first house and a Moon in the twelfth house but hugging the Ascendant.

                        And I just wanted to share about that that when we have a planet on the Ascendant, on the Rising sign, it's like we're projecting it out to the world. It really comes across. But when that planet is conjunct the Ascendant from the twelfth house, you don't always feel like you're projecting it out, but people react to you in a way that clearly affirms you're projecting it out.

Leon:               Yeah. Definitely.

Jessica:            So you are like the very Canceriest Cancer Moon on the Rising⁠—like Mars⁠—you have another Cancer planet in the first house. Super-duper Cancer. And people clock it. It's clockable. It's clockable. Does that make sense?

Leon:               Yeah. What immediately comes to mind is throughout, especially, my formative years and high school era, teachers would always be like, "Fix your face. Why are you giving me attitude?" And I'd be like, "I don't have emotions. What are you talking about? I'm really cool, calm, and collected." But people would always project their own stuff on me like that for sure.

Jessica:            Well, that specific thing is actually quite related to the fact that you have Neptune in the seventh house opposite your Venus/Mars conjunction in the first. So that's actually a function of Neptune, people projecting stuff onto you. But what is a function of being a double Cancer with the Moon hugging the Ascendant from the first house is that you're not always really feeling and having a sense of ownership of, "This is my emotions. This is my Moon." But everyone else can see that you're in emotion.

Leon:               Okay.

Jessica:            Right, which is like⁠—you know, we could keep on layering that information with what you're talking about, but what I want to just⁠—sticking with the Cancer conversation, what I want to say is that in a world that will equate femininity with softness and in a world that will often demand that AFAB people are nurturing and all of this kind of stuff⁠—and you happen to also be a double Cancer⁠—this can just kind of stack up in such a way that you do classic crab shit, which is, yeah, soft, soft, tender underbelly, but pinch, pinch, pinch, hard shell on the outside. Let's not forget the hard shell on the outside thing. Is this making sense?

Leon:               Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's Cancer for you. And so I actually want to⁠—I want to talk to you about this because your question is a little unique in terms of the questions that I usually answer on the podcast because you're asking me kind of an astrology question more than an in-depth issue of your birth chart. But I wanted to start off by asking you this question, okay? What is mothering? What does it mean?

Leon:               I told my therapist right before this⁠—because I had therapy right before this⁠—that you were going to ask me that question.

Jessica:            You know it. You knew it.

Leon:               I knew.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Leon:               And I was really trying hard to go through with that in my therapy session, answering that question. And I could not answer the question in my therapy session, and I diverted and talked about something else. So congrats to me.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Leon:               So what is mothering to me? I think that's part of the question is I'm not sure exactly what great mothering is. I don't know if I essentially received great mothering. I feel like the mothering I received was very much like "I buy you things to show you⁠—you know, I'm buying you all these new clothes. I'm buying food. I'm making you food."

I associate food a lot with mothering people because of that, I guess, and I do like cooking and I do like eating. I associate mothering in relation to my upbringing and how I am with, I think, listening, active listening, and being present with people and their emotions and really considering them and being able to respond to that and hold it. But other than those two things, which⁠—

Jessica:            Okay.

Leon:               Other than that, I'm not sure.

Jessica:            Let me just ground this. Let me ground this. So, when we're talking about mothering, your definition falls to active listening and cooking and providing food and sharing food with people.

Leon:               Yeah. I mean, that's⁠—

Jessica:            Does that actually sound like it's not you?

Leon:               It sounds like it's me. And that's what I'm⁠—I'm expressing what I figured out on how to⁠—what I think I'm embracing these energies is like, what I think mothering may be like. I'm not sure if I'm answering the question, but⁠—

Jessica:            You are. You are. You are.

Leon:               Yeah. I'm equating those two things, I think.

Jessica:            So I have a rule. Whenever a word is triggering, look it up. And don't just look it up in English; look up what it⁠—like what the word for, let's say, "mothering" is in French, in Farsi, in Japanese. Look it up in lots of different languages, and look at their nuanced, different definitions. That's my rule of thumb with words or concepts that are really triggering. But it has to be a concept and a word; otherwise, it's too much labor even for a Virgo. That's my first thing, is always be curious about what the word means.

That said, I think mothering is a very fraught concept in a lot of ways, partially because we live in a fucking patriarchy, and so we shit on everything that is female or feminine in this particular way. But it's also⁠—there is mothering as a mother does to a child, and then there is mothering like, "My bestie is really mothering." You know? Like, "This person is mothering," or whatever.

Let me pull back. I was going to say something, but the truth is I cannot fucking defend or fully explain mothering because I find it to be a very ridiculous way of holding Cancerian energies. And I feel bad saying "ridiculous," because I know it does really resonate for some people. But I am with you that it is so confusing and limiting, even though I have probably a lot more adjectives to describe mothering behavior.

But I will say this. Let's just talk about fucking Cancer, okay? Let's talk about Cancer. Cancer is emo. And when I say emo, I mean everybody knows Cancers feel their feelings. Cancers have strong emotions. But what we don't talk about enough with Cancer energies is that Cancers are fiercely protective.

Leon:         Yes.

Jessica:            Pinch, pinch, pinch. Right? Cancers have a really hard shell. When we're talking about Cancerian energy, we're talking about the energy of self-protection as much as we are talking about being super emotional.

Leon:               Okay.

Jessica:            The other thing about Cancers is they come at things sideways. That Cancer energy comes at things sideways because crabs move sideways. There is a way that when we're looking at our Cancerian parts, when we're looking at the energy and the archetype of Cancer, part of this coming at things sideways is a negative stereotype of women.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            Women are constantly nagging but never saying what they really want. Some bullshit, right? We don't agree. We are agreeing we don't agree, I'm assuming, right?

Leon:               Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            We're agreeing we don't agree. Okay. But that is part of the negative association. But the truth and the reality is that because our Cancerian energies are so highly sensitive⁠—and they're sensitive emotionally, but they're also sensitive to cyclical changes. So when there's a shift in the emotional dynamic that's happening, somebody with strong Cancer placements like you is going to feel it.

                        And so, a lot of time, what you're going to be doing as somebody with a lot of Cancer energies is responding to those energies in a cyclical way. So you might be picking up where you left off last time.

Leon:               Oh. Yeah. I think that's how I describe my attitude towards life, towards other people. I've come more into it as I've aged, which⁠—I'm not that old, but as I've aged into my late 20s, I see everything as a cycle. I'm very much someone who understands when it's time to stop something, knowing that I will return to it, and then return to it, and then start it again. And then I'm like, "I will stop someday." And then I stop. That's very much how I⁠—it's just I've never associated that with Cancer. But that's so interesting to know.

Jessica:            And that's Cancer because that's the Moon. Right? Every month, we have a Full Moon.

Leon:               Oh. Yes.

Jessica:            Every month, we have a New Moon. We have a⁠—you know.

Leon:               Of course. Yeah.

Jessica:            People track the Moon cycles. And so, again, this is like⁠—I feel like, in the world of keywords and the silicification of astrology, we over-rely on these old keywords that honestly just need to fucking evolve. When we're talking about the kind of emotionality in the way of being self-protective⁠—both⁠—they're deeply connected for Cancer people. And of course, I'm talking about you, even though your Sun is in Virgo. Fuck that. We're talking about how Cancer you are, right?

                        There is a way that it is all about cycles. It is all about cycles. When you're in a healthy, self-aware cycle with something, then it feels like evolution. And when you're having a maladjusted coping time or things are just fucked up in some way, it can feel like, "Why will this never end?" It can just feel like the ocean is crashing into your face and you can't quite catch a breath. Right?

Leon:               Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            And this is when people go into more self-protective behaviors. And sometimes that's shutting down. Sometimes that's acting out. I mean, a human as a lot of ways. But I think that what's really interesting is that, inasmuch as it's associated with mothering⁠—mothers are associated with the home, and the fourth house and the Moon are associated with the home. I feel like the Moon, your ruling planet here, and the zodiac sign of Cancer are wild. They're not domesticated. Why domesticate it?

                        And I think that this is part of coming into ownership of the fact that your ruling planet is always moving. You know what I mean? I'm a Capricorn. My ruling planet is slow, walks really like⁠—you know, just very one step after another. Your ruling planet is constantly moving, constantly moving, constantly moving. And that is an odd thing to associate with a fixed place in the house, a mother in the house.

Leon:               Forever, yeah, never leaving the house forever.

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            So there's, again, this negative association because of patriarchy, not because of what motherhood inherently is at all, actually. Motherhood is many things, right? But when we're talking about the energetics of mothering, what we're really talking about is the energetics of protecting and nurturing. And whether that means you're protecting and nurturing yourself, you're protecting or nurturing projects, you're protecting or nurturing other people⁠—that depends.

                        But when it comes to⁠—just to come back to your core question around looking at books and listening to TikTokers talk about this shit, honestly, you just gotta find people who have a Queer lens or who are Queer⁠—

Leon:               I know.

Jessica:            ⁠—and are using the right language because there is an excess of data out there that's just not going to validate your identity but also your experience of reality.

Leon:               The videos that are like, "The reason why this relationship isn't working is because your feminine energy needs to come out more so his masculine energy can come out more. And then, once his masculine energy comes out, it'll be in perfect harmony."

Jessica:            Yeah. That's when you just keep⁠—scroll. Scroll. Scroll. Scroll. Train your algorithm to never show you that ever again.

Leon:               I know.

Jessica:            And I think this is something that is not astrology but real talk. If you give your attention to a video or a static post or whatever, you're training your algorithm to keep on feeding it to you. Even if you're mad at it, you have to train yourself to be like, "No." Just zoop past it because I'll say that when I first started studying astrology several years before you were born⁠—and I still have my original book⁠—I had to take a pen, and every word⁠—when they were talking about people in general, they would all say "he." And so I put an S in front of every "he" because I was that little uptight Capricorn feminist, and that's what I did.

Leon:               I respect that.

Jessica:            Thank you very much. It was a Virgo-on-Capricorn kind of respect. It was very tedious, but I did it. And I have a lot of those books still with the little S's in front. And eventually, I just had to tell myself, "Okay. I want to extrapolate this data, and I'm going to ignore these things," because it became too tedious for me.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            Now, this wasn't the same as consuming⁠—this was like reading textbooks as opposed to what we have now on social media posts, which is just like self-care woo. And I think the good news is there are a ton of Genderqueer, Queer, or really good allies and accomplices out there who fuck with astrology and woo. You just have to train yourself to not engage with people who aren't like that, honestly.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            And I would say the kind of queering of astrology is expansive for people of all genders and all sexualities, no matter how conventional your ways are, because the queering of astrology⁠—what it does is it expands our old-school definitions and assumptions, and it allows us to be more multidimensional and multifaceted. And I think that for you⁠—because your question is technically about, "How do I be a Cancer without being like a mom thing?" or whatever.

Leon:               Without being like a '50s housewife.

Jessica:            Correct. Correct.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            But that makes me want to go into, "Is this a question"⁠—now that we've kind of talked about the archetype of Cancer and all this kind of good stuff, is this a question about your gender? Is that what this question is really about?

Leon:               I wouldn't be surprised. That would be very embarrassing if it was. I'm like, "Oh no. Not again, my gender getting me here and causing chaos." But I'm very, to a fault, ambiguous about my gender to other people and to myself. It's one of those things where I feel like it's going to haunt me in some future cycle that I'm pushing off right now and ignoring. So I wouldn't be surprised if that was coming up. I can't give you a clear answer, though.

Jessica:            Let me speak to that. That's okay. Where you have fuzz, I have clarity. So let's do it.

Leon:               Cool.

Jessica:            Okay? Here's the thing.

Leon:               Assign me my gender, Jessica.

Jessica:            Easy. Easy work. No problem. You have a Uranus/Neptune conjunction. You have Uranus in Aquarius and Neptune in Capricorn, okay? But they're out of sign. They're both conjoining your seventh house. And they're sitting opposite to your Mars/Venus conjunction, Mars in Cancer, Venus in Leo, at 0 degrees and 0 minutes. So you may have seen it in some places as being in Cancer, but it is in Leo. Okay?

Leon:               Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            So Mars and Venus are the two planets we look to for gender, not the Moon, but Venus and Mars. You have the two queerdos of the zodiac, Uranus and Neptune, opposite your Mars and Leo. Agender, Nonbinary, Genderfluid⁠—yeah. Sure. It depends on what cycle we are of the Moon for you to know what is going to be the most resonant.

Leon:               Oh no. That's so right, though. I have felt like I am putting on costumes every day that's like, "What's the gender du jour?" And that's why I can never get rid of anything in my closet, because it's like it all cycles through. It does. Yeah. You're right.

Jessica:            So what I want to say⁠—because you're saying that like it's a bad thing. And what I want to say is that is not a bad thing or a good thing. It's a thing that resonates with you. And all gender is a fucking drag, as the expression goes. And all gender is both a performance and something that is deeply personal and deeply felt. It's complex. And for people who are cisgender, it is not something that they have to dig too deep on, although I think gender is fucking complicated for everybody.

                        But for you, the thing to know is that because of Uranus and Neptune, it is changeable, not in a capricious way. Uranus is related to your nervous system. There are going to be ways that you feel in your body, ways that you feel in periods of your life in different relationships, that are going to spark⁠—Uranus is related to a spark. It's going to spark different experiences and expression of your gender.

                        And Neptune is going to do the same thing but in a really different way. Neptune is foggy. Okay. So the Moon rules over the tides. We know that. We got tides in the metaphors already in our conversation. But now we're talking about Neptune. Neptune is the deep fog in the middle of the sea.

And so there's this fogginess around gender that can exist, which sometimes with Neptune is super fucking glamorous. Sometimes it's super playful with gender, and sometimes it is just in the fog, like very far from any kind of binary, very far from any kind of hard lines, which⁠—honestly, Uranus loves hard lines. It just likes to change them all the time and scribble them. But Neptune doesn't like hard lines at all.

                        What this means to me looking at your chart⁠—not having to live your life, but looking at your chart⁠—is that your gender is nuanced and complex, and that for you, cultivating a willingness to play with your gender expression and embodiment⁠—so expression, I guess I'm talking clothes and mannerisms, yada, yada. But embodiment⁠—that's giving yourself permission to embody your gender in this minute however it is that resonates.

                        And because you do have so much in Cancer, it is going to ebb and flow. It is going to ebb and flow. And I know your Virgo Sun is like, "Yeah, yeah. But what's the answer?" You also have a Mercury/Saturn opposition in your birth chart that forms a square to Jupiter⁠—whole other conversation. But those parts of you are like, "If I do the right thing, if I read the right text, if I have the right conversation, I'll figure out the answer. And then I'll know how much is too much and how much is not enough of each component."

                        There's something else. I'm going to keep it focused on Cancer for a minute here. The Cancerian energies are about gestation. It's literally how we digest things⁠—that's the Moon. But it's also about gestation, like the growth and nurturance in the body. Right? It's the Moon.

And if there was a way that you could be kind of shifting your attention towards yourself with gender towards⁠—how do you digest your own gender experience? Can you give yourself permission to gestate it, to explore it, to let it reveal itself to you in different ways, and to hold it in different ways, but at all times kind of lightly? Because when you try to put it in your fist and hold on to it tight, Neptune is involved, so⁠—poof⁠—it goes away.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            Does that make sense?

Leon:               I think about that. Yeah.

Jessica:            Yeah.

Leon:               I'm not sure I completely understand about digesting. Is it more like reflecting on it, like thinking about it? Or is it more just observing?

Jessica:            Good question. Very Virgo, and I like it. And I want to give you five stars or ten stars, however is the maximum stars for it.

Leon:               Oh no.

Jessica:            No, no, no. You're good. You're good. You're good. So, when I'm talking about the Moon and Cancerian energies and digestion, it's not what you think, for sure.

Leon:               Okay.

Jessica:            It's what you feel.

Leon:               Correct.

Jessica:            So, if you are, let's say⁠—okay. Let's think for a minute. You eat an apple. Chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp. Right?

Leon:               Mm-hmm.

Jessica:            Swallow, and then you go about your day. But your body is digesting that apple, right?

Leon:               Okay.

Jessica:            So that process⁠—I'm not seeing you digest the apple. That looks like a passive process to me, right? We associate digestion with something very passive, while in fact every one of us who bloats knows how not passive it is, how it is actually a really active process that the body is engaged in; it's just happening underneath the meat suit layers. We can't see through them. So digestion is an intuitive practice, right?

Leon:         Okay.

Jessica:            We digest things intuitively. But also, it takes a lot of effort, and it doesn't always go well, depending on what else is happening in our systems. So, when we're talking about digesting something like gender, it's instead of⁠—let's say you go out and you hang out with a bunch of people on Friday night, and you expressed your gender in an interaction with a person in a way that⁠—no—it didn't feel right. Or you come home feeling yourself very intensely. Either one.

                        If you are giving yourself the very Cancerian space to digest that instead of to be like, "What's wrong with me? Why did I do this? Why did I show up this way?" or to fixate on the externals of it, but instead to sit with, "Okay. In this moment, how I expressed my gender, how I felt my gender, how somebody else reacted to my gender"⁠—whatever it is in the moment, because gender is a many-armed/tentacled beast, right? I mean, it's one we love, we hate, we whatever.

                        But it's by digesting, sitting with it, being curious about it, noticing what you feel about it instead of trying to turn this into an essay or trying to figure it out.

Leon:               That makes more sense. Yeah.

Jessica:            Okay.

Leon:               I think you're making me realize how unnecessarily punishing I can be with myself about gender. It's one of those things where it's like, "God, that's so obvious." But I didn't think of it that way because I look around at other people who seem to be very sure of their gender⁠—of course, I have no idea what they're thinking or feeling⁠—or if only I could just be simple F to M Trans; I'm like, "Yes, I'm a man. I will dress like Bob at the Builder, and I will go along my merry way."

Jessica:            I want to get you the hat just for saying it. But okay. Okay. Yeah.

Leon:               And no shade to those who do dress like Bob at the Builder. That's hot and sexy and fun. But I can't commit to just one aesthetic. A good example of this, actually, that I have just been thinking of is I signed up for one of those higher-up designer kind of services where you give them pictures of you in different pieces of your wardrobe, and they give you different outfits based off of the vibe you want. This poor person that was assigned to me got like 400 different types of vibes, and I ended up getting the most chaotic, randomized type of outfits.

And I feel like this is related in that I can never distill myself down to one gender or one outfit or one style, and I get very frustrated with myself about it, and I get very like, "Okay. Maybe in your 30s, you finally decide that you are a man, and you will stick to it, you will forever be a man."

                        And then I feel a lot of shame around not being able to choose that, and also identifying as transmasc because then it's like, is that even the right term? I started to get frustrated with the words, and then I just get⁠—I spiral. So yeah.

Jessica:            So there's a number of things I want to say. The first is I think a lot of people struggle with language when it comes to identifying something that is not linear or binary. I think that's pretty normal and fair.

Leon:               Right.

Jessica:            It doesn't make it easy, but it is⁠—a limitation of language is that it is inherently binary. Now, that said, you have a Uranus opposition to Venus. If you were the cisgenderiest, normaliest girl, you would not be able to commit to want a single aesthetic. Uranus/Venus opposition means you sometimes want to change your outfits multiple times in a day.

Leon:               Oh hell yes.

Jessica:            Like you said, it's like having the chaos queen closet where there's like⁠—are you goth? Are you⁠—like, wait. What? Wait. There's like seven million different styles in there. That's a Venus/Uranus opposition or a Venus/Uranus square. And the only problem with that⁠—there's one⁠—is your lack of self-acceptance because there's a part of you that doesn't want to think about gender, so you don't want to think about clothes, I'm guessing.

Leon:               This is such radical vulnerability saying this to the public, but all my friends know that I am the person that's like⁠—as soon as I get home, I'm naked. I am not doing clothes. I am the naked window person for my neighbors, probably. Yeah. I don't want to wear clothes. It's that, or it's like if I could wear the perfect outfit, then all my problems would be solved and I would feel amazing. You know what I mean? It's either/or.

Jessica:            You're giving a lot of credit to clothes.

Leon:               I know. It's so unfortunate.

Jessica:            You're giving a lot of credit to clothes.

Leon:               I know. I know.

Jessica:            Again, what I want to just ground into⁠—listen. You have a Venus in Leo. If you don't find a way to be a little bit playful about your relationship to clothes, then it's going to keep on feeling like your clothes are somehow keeping you back or somehow an expression of something wrong with you, when the reality is clothes are just⁠—⁠I mean⁠—you can decide that you want to fuck with finding five different uniforms, one for each mood. That is fine.

Leon:               Ooh.

Jessica:            Does that sound bad or good?

Leon:               No, I just⁠—I never thought about that.

Jessica:            The thing I'll say⁠—because you have Neptune opposite your Venus, you could really rock some either completely match/clash color stuff or a monochromatic outfit, like green on green on green on green on green. And if that is something that is interesting to you⁠—because here's the thing about Neptune. When Neptune is in aspect to our personal planets⁠—and here it is for you; it's in aspect to your Venus and your Mars⁠—playing with color is key.

                        And right now, you're wearing white and black. I'm seeing you wearing⁠—we're both wearing white and black.

Leon:               Yeah. Basically.

Jessica:            Yeah. So not your best-friend colors. I'm assuming you have a lot of that in your closet⁠—

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            ⁠—because you're trying to hide from the feelings that clothes provoke in you.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            But what I want to encourage you to consider⁠—it doesn't matter if it's an old T-shirt with a button-up shirt and a pair of whatever pants. It's about, can you tell a color story? Can you just go color blocking, and you're just like a human highlighter or something? Maybe that's a bad way of saying it, but can you just do a monochromatic thing so you're dressing color and shade instead of anything else?

Just play with that idea. If it doesn't feel good/it's not fun, don't play with something that feels bad. But I want to encourage you to be playing with ideas because what you're looking for is the right idea.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            You're looking for the magic clothes that will change your gender. That's not a thing. That's not a thing. I don't think that's a thing. For some people, they put on clothes, and they're just like, "Oh my God. It validates my gender," and then there is that. I've experienced it. It happens. It happens. It is a healthier expectation to come to a healthy relationship to your gender and then find the perfect clothes than to find the perfect clothes and then be like, "Oh," and they point me towards a singularity of a gender.

                        You have Mercury opposite Saturn in your birth chart. And Mercury opposite Saturn gives you this tendency⁠—that plus being a Virgo⁠—where you're just like, "Okay. It has to be⁠—I have to find the answer because when I find the answer, it'll be right or it'll be wrong. And then I can do whatever the right or the wrong thing is."

                        But what I want you to notice is that you wrote in this question about Cancerian energies. And now we're shifting into gender talk. And all of this stuff is not completely linear. It's certainly not angular. It's not binary. It exists outside of binary. And as much as I really get how much that fucking irks you, let me flip it on you.

Leon:               Okay.

Jessica:            Would you really want to be super binary and conventional in how you dress or your gender?

Leon:               Of course. I'm cisgender/straight. No, I'm kidding. No, no. I⁠—yeah. I'm irked because I'm like, "God, I have to look within and find the Nonbinary within the Nonbinary."

Jessica:            Yes. Yeah. That's it.

Leon:               That's like some mathematical infinities within infinities concept.

Jessica:            Yes. Yes. It's⁠—

Leon:               God.

Jessica:            Here's the thing. There's like⁠—I'm not a quantum physicist, and I'm going to fuck up what I'm going to try to say. But⁠—

Leon:               And I'm just going to say [crosstalk 00:34:00]⁠—

Jessica:            Yeah.

Leon:               ⁠—one of my closest friends is a theoretical physicist, and they will be listening to this. So no pressure.

Jessica:            Okay. No pressure at all. How embarrassing in advance. But quantum physicists and theorists, etc., will often theorize about there being multiple dimensions at once. Yes or no? Because we don't want to embarrass ourselves in front of your friend.

Leon:               I mean, I think so. Yeah.

Jessica:            From what little I know. Right?

Leon:               Yeah. Of course.

Jessica:            And I want to encourage you to be curious about that. If there are multiple dimensions within you, within the universe that is your individuality, within the universe that is your individual experience in this lifetime, which is not limited to your meat suit, but your meat suit is a big part of the ride⁠—if there are multiple universes, then can you not at the same time be feeling super daddy vibes and also be a fucking double Cancer? Can you not, I ask?

Leon:               Yeah. That's⁠—yeah. I have to sit on that.

Jessica:            It's really about the practice because it's not about practicing being something you're not; it's about practicing allowing yourself to be what you are at times. So, at times, you are the most emo emo that ever emoed. You're a double Cancer. And at times, you're super in your head, and you're not particularly emo, and you're not particularly focused on nurturing other people. And then, at times, you're the one that people call because you're so nurturing and supportive.

You get to be different parts of yourself at different times. There isn't a singularity around this. Hopefully, through this conversation, we've evolved and expanded your notion and relationship to Cancerian energies, right? It's about cycles and digestion, right?

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            And that's ultimately what motherhood is about, but we don't have to call it that. It's so limiting. It's so limiting. Okay. Is there a world in which you could apply the same concept to your experience and expression of gender? You walk down the street. You exchange eyes with a twink, and you had a gender validation in that moment. You're going to digest that instead of being like, "What does it mean? What does it mean about me? Oh shit. I gotta"⁠—

Leon:               Yes. That's it. That's the feeling. Feel it forever. Yeah.

Jessica:            "And that's the one I need to feel forever." Exactly⁠.

Leon:               Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica:            That's the Cancer's pinchers, right? Cancer pinchers is getting too attached.

Leon:               Right. Okay.

Jessica:            So what you want to do instead⁠—be like, "Okay. In this moment, I'm experiencing this aspect of my gender. It turns out I'm a snack, and my gender is delicious in this moment." That's it.

Leon:               It always comes back to food with Cancer, I swear to God.

Jessica:            It does. It does. It does, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Leon:               Okay. Good.

Jessica:            So being able to really just be like, "Okay. I'm going to nom-nom-nom-nom-nom this part of my gender in this moment," not, "I'm going to attach to it"⁠—because when a crab⁠—I don't know if you've ever seen a crab attach to anything. It puts holes in it. You're putting holes in everything you love because you're trying to make it stay forever.

Leon:               Oh. Okay. I'm going to have to think about that for five years.

Jessica:            Okay. That sucks. You're welcome. I'm so sorry. But it's true. So, if you can, allow it to exist. And know that even if later on the same day that you exchanged eyes with the twink, now you are walking down the street and somebody fucking misgenders you, or you just catch a look of yourself and you don't like what you see⁠—which happens to everybody of every gender, by the way.

                        But okay, whatever it is that happens, and now you're in a completely different place⁠—this is a bite of something you do not want to eat. It is not a destination forever. It is not a sentence of what your gender is and always secretly was. Just like the good thing we don't want to put your pinchers in, we don't want to put your pinchers in the bad thing, because all it is is something that exists somewhere in some moment. Maybe it's an emotion. Maybe it's a dynamic. Maybe it's an experience of your gender.

But it doesn't have to be written in stone. It doesn't have to be something that you attach to you. What hermit crabs do is you just put the crab near any kind of thing, and they'll just go into it. They'll make it their home. Right?

Leon:         Right.

Jessica:            And there is a way that that is a gift. Being able to create home in yourself and with the people that really resonate for you⁠—that is a gift for Cancers. But here is the way it's not. You can turn that delicious twink moment that's gender-validating⁠—you can turn that terrible other moment that I'm not going to get too specific about that was the opposite of validating⁠—you can turn that into your little hermit crab home. You're really good at it. You overidentify with that. You make it your home. You stay in it. You hide from the world, and you just stay with the shitty feelings or sometimes the great feelings.

                        And what I want to encourage you to do is don't be a hermit crab, unless you're going through Saturn transits or something and you gotta be a hermit crab. But around this gender conversation, be a free wheel⁠—and I don't know enough about crabs to give you a different breed. But be a free-wheeling kind of crab that just swims and walks and talks and lives in the multiverse as it needs to. Does that make sense?

Leon:               It does. And my brain is making some sort of galaxy brain connection between this⁠—for whatever reason, societal⁠—maybe it's just personality. Maybe it was my family⁠—whatever. This decision I made that capriciousness⁠—is that the word?

Jessica:            Yes.

Leon:               The kind of changeability/capriciousness is inherently bad. It seems so, honestly, related to sexism, about women being hysterical. You know what I mean?

Jessica:            Yeah. Yeah.

Leon:               Or femininity being like, "Oh, now you're crying. Now you're happy with it and now you're⁠"—that gender stereotype.

Jessica:            Yes.

Leon:               And I'm making that connection right now between⁠—I don't know why I got this idea in my head that⁠—okay. Consistency⁠—and this probably is the patriarchy. No. [crosstalk 00:40:17]⁠—

Jessica:            It's the patriarchy. Yes. Yes.

Leon:               You're like, "It is." I'm like, "Oh God." And consistency is key. You have to be the same all the time. You're a machine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That typical stuff. Oh my God.

Jessica:            Yeah. But this is like⁠—we've unlocked it. This is good. It doesn't mean everything is magically fixed. It's not.

Leon:               No, no. Yeah.

Jessica:            But this is that negative association with femininity, with females, with Cancer, with the zodiac sign of Cancer, in the traditional textbooks and with the annoying TikTok astrologers. But I think that one of the things that will give you peace eventually⁠—eventually, hopefully⁠—is being able to embrace that you are changeable.

And to be changeable in a dynamic world where you're in relationship with other people simply requires that you communicate, like, "I'm in a state of changeability which is purely emotional, and I'm not ready to share my feelings right now. Don't worry. I'll talk to you about it when I have clarity," or, "I've actually changed my mind. I've actually changed what's right for me."

And being able to give yourself permission to be somebody who clearly communicates what you've changed so that other people have the space to adjust⁠—that's where the magic exists because if Cancerian energies have trouble with other people other than being really emotionally overwhelmed by people sometimes, it's that. It's that overattachment flips on a dime sometimes. So it's like one minute, you're just like, "It has to be this," and the next minute, you're like, "Oh shit. No. It has to be the opposite."

And it can create conflict within relationship because people aren't on the same Lunar path. It's not constantly ebbing and flowing. And so this is where I want to come back to that Mercury/Saturn opposition. Once you decide, you're actually really good at saying, "This is what I decided."

Leon:         Yeah.

Jessica:      Yeah. It just takes you a minute to decide.

Leon:         Yeah.

Jessica:            And if you were to give yourself permission to have the process you need to have and to be the person you are and have your clarity not be a clarity that is binary and forever consistent⁠—if you could do all of those things, then you would have dramatically more peace. Everything else would kind of be the same, but it would just be that you would accept yourself because there's nothing wrong with the way you are.

                        I mean, I'm sure you have a ton of problems. I'm not trying to say you're perfect. But the things we're talking about are not what's wrong with you. They're what's hard for you. And that's a really different thing.

Leon:               Yeah. That makes sense.

Jessica:            Venus rules your fifth house. Venus is part of your opposition to Uranus and Neptune. It is really, really, really, really, really, really important that you play⁠—you play with gender, you play with gender as a relational experience, gender as just a you thing. Play with clothes. I want to encourage you to just play. And maybe that's not going to be possible. Maybe you're just like, "That sounds fucking torturous. I'm not going to do that."

                        But your chart speaks to how play would really be helpful for you and to play in a way that reflects your values because it's Venus. So some people, when they play with clothes or how they look, it's very superficial. It's like Keeping Up with the Joneses stuff. And then sometimes it's based on values. Right? And sometimes it's a little bit of both.

                        And you get to be superficial if you want to be, for the record. And you get to be overly deep if you want to be, for the record. And you're allowed to be both at once. And if you, again, can just give yourself permission to do that, you will be giving yourself the gift of freeing up your energy, not so you can find the answer, but so that you can play in these in-between spaces and be curious about what you find there.

Leon:               I think there's a lot of value in play. I think when I feel the most confident gender-wise and in myself is when I've tried something new and it works out, and I never expected it to, or I got a piece of clothing that's totally outrageous. That's what I used to do, and then I kind of outgrew all my outrageous clothing. So then I kind of sat in that gray-and-white, "Oh, I better build a closet of basics now that I can't fit into my colorful clothing." That's kind of the backstory of what happened, but yeah. I can [crosstalk 00:44:34].

Jessica:            I mean, that makes sense.

Leon:               Yeah.

Jessica:            And I will say this. Listen. I have a Venus/Uranus square. You have a Venus/Uranus opposition. They're different aspects, but they're not that different. And let me tell you this. Yeah, I have 70⁠—maybe that's an under-count; I'm not sure⁠—different styles running in my closet at all times. And I don't get rid of clothes unless I outgrow them, like physically outgrow them, in a meaningful way because I always cycle back to aesthetics. And yeah, I will change my outfits multiple times a day sometimes.

And it's just because Uranus is so demanding. Uranus is like, "This feels wrong. This feels right." And it's just that's what Uranus does. And so, if you don't fight it, if you're just like, "Oh, okay. I need work pants on immediately," or, "I need no pants on immediately"⁠—in the appropriate situation or whatever⁠—all these things, you're just listening to your muse.

Leon:         I didn't know that was Uranus. That's good to know.

Jessica:      That's Uranus. That's Uranus.

Leon:               Yeah. That voice is like, "This is not right. Find out what's right." And it's throwing all the clothes, like finding the perfect shirt, whatever. Yeah.

Jessica:            Uranus is chaotic and changeable. It governs changeability and chaos and also rebellion and revolution. It's a very queer planet. Uranus and Neptune are both very queer in different ways. Uranus is queer in that it's countercultural, and Neptune is queer in that it's Nonbinary. And those are the two planets that are aspecting your Venus and Mars.

                        So, again, certainly, somebody could have a very gender-normative experience of these placements, and they would experience the kind of wildness of Uranus and Neptune in different ways. But this is how it's embodied for you. And I just want to say, and it is good. And it is good. So, if you stop fighting yourself and judging yourself and trying to fit your fucking square peg into a round hole or whatever it is, if you have many parts of your gender that show up at different moments, okay. Cool.

                        And also⁠, this is like the quintessential moment where I can't help but say you are young. There is so much time and space for your gender to evolve. And I don't mean evolve into a singular point, because again, that's not what I'm recommending here, but instead that you get to evolve, and as you evolve, you become more comfortable in your own skin and more comfortable giving yourself permission to be the complexity that you are. And as that happens organically, you start to be able to recognize gender-affirming moments and recognize yourself in them and to give yourself permission to be like, "Okay. I'm going to collect this in my yes pile." And your yes pile will get bigger and bigger.

Leon:               That makes sense.

Jessica:            And this is like part of being pre-Saturn Return, as you are, is still having these experiences that kind of tell you about yourself. In your 30s, you get to integrate them a lot more. But I am not suggesting that your 30s will hit and you'll be like, "Gender confirmed. Check."

                        And then there's one last thing I want to say. You have a Mercury/Saturn opposition, which is why you want to pick a gender identity, a single one. You want to get a label, and you want to use a nice label maker, and you want to emboss it, and then you want to stick it on your chest; move on. You want one gender identity that works for you because that is what Saturn/Mercury opposition does. It makes you want solid answers. But the reality is, yeah, that's not exactly how your gender works.

Leon:               And also, it reaches a point where I'm like, "Ew. Why would I want that?" It's that⁠—yeah.

Jessica:            It doesn't fit.

Leon:               No.

Jessica:            It doesn't consistently fit. So, for you, you said transmasc was what you used?

Leon:               Yeah, and it still doesn't feel entirely accurate. But yeah.

Jessica:            So some days it can be transmasc, and other days it can be whatever else. I mean, there's a lot. I don't want to throw any out there.

Leon:               Right.

Jessica:            But what I'm saying is you can use different identity markers to validate you in different moments. That's okay. That is acceptable. That is one of your choices as an autonomous, individual human person. And I just want to remind you of that, that there is actually nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think if you're changing your pronouns all the time and it's confusing all the people around you, okay, maybe that's a problem. But even that, you're fucking allowed to do. And there's nothing wrong with it.

Leon:               Right. It just depends on what's my goal in terms of, do I want to hold down my job or something? You know what I mean?

Jessica:            Absolutely.

Leon:               If I'm changing pronouns every second. But I understand what you're saying.

Jessica:            Yeah. It's not about pronouns as much as it's about coming up with a label that you identify with that⁠—

Leon:               Right. Of course.

Jessica:            ⁠—feels right for all your parts. It's probably not it for you.

Leon:               Yeah. I have one question. Since it came up with Uranus being very changeable, I was just wondering if you could speak to the difference between Cancer capriciousness and changeability to Uranus's changeability. Yeah.

Jessica:            So Cancer is emotional, so, "I really want ice cream. No, I've changed my mind. I don't want ice cream. That doesn't feel right. I don't want to get bloated after I eat ice cream. Instead, let's go get pizza. Okay, wait. I really love you and I want you to hang out with me more, but you know what? We've been doing that for five days now, and now I need space." The capriciousness that is associated with Cancer's energies are really about emotional ebb and flow.

When we're talking about Uranian capriciousness, what we're talking about is the changeability of the planet that's associated with lightning strikes, the internet, counterculture, rebellion and revolution. It's changeability in terms of "I really am pointed in this direction, but then I learned something or I unlearned it, and now I did a 180 and now I'm changing my direction." Having this capriciousness in the context⁠—and I know that the word "capricious" has negative connotations, but I'm working with your question.

Leon:         Yeah, I'm not using⁠ it in a negative way at all.

Jessica:      Yeah.

Leon:         Yeah.

Jessica:      So this is more about a nervous system mental kind of changeability, right?

Leon:         That makes sense.

Jessica:      It's not super emo. Uranus is not particularly emo.

Leon:         Okay.

Jessica:            But of course, Cancer's energies are inherently emo, and they're very different motivations. And they will often lead to different behaviors in a nuanced way, although I guess technically, yes, both can be very changeable or capricious. Right?

Leon:               That makes sense. I was just thinking about the different parts of my nature that you spoke to, the Uranian changeability⁠—I do very much have that side of me that's like, "I learned something different, and now I believe this completely differently. And then I'm like⁠—but it's a very mental process more of the time where I'm like, "Okay. Moving on. Got it. Checking in with myself. Cool." And then the Cancer stuff is like what you're describing, always coming back to food, but the feelings aspect of the tug and the pull and the push-pull of yearning and then being pulled in the left and then to the right⁠—that's like the ocean.

Jessica:            That's Cancer.

Leon:               That's the ocean. Yeah.

Jessica:            So I'm going to advise you to either go to the ocean and/or just watch a bunch of videos of the ocean because you're saying tug to the left, to the right. And yes, that's very real. But what's also real is if you start seeing yourself in the ebb and flow of the ocean, in the way that some waves crash and others kind of come in really gently to see where waves kind of⁠—where does a wave become the ocean? Right? A wave is its own thing. It's its own powerful thing. It has great force. But then it kind of disappears into the larger ocean. What is that? What is that?

This is a perfect meditation for somebody with strong Cancer placements because this is the perfect metaphor for emotion itself. How we feel is completely⁠⁠—each individual wave, each individual experience, is real and whole and total. And yet it is completely impossible to separate it from the largesse of our emotions, our past, our feelings, our experiences, how we digest them in our body, whether we're mean to ourselves or we're nice to ourselves about it, whether we rush ourselves or we disassociate.

                        All of these things are part of our gestation process. And the good thing is it's constantly in motion, and it's where we can evolve. Emotional growth is absolutely possible. Just because one's nature is, let's say, to be changeable in a way that feels unhelpful⁠—you can evolve by working with yourself to evolve in ways that allow you to come into greater self-awareness so that you have more agency and choice within whatever it is that's happening.

                        That's like the premier peak Cancer experience⁠—you know what I mean⁠?—is to be able to have the awareness of what you're feeling as you're feeling it so you can leverage your agency to engage with your emotions intentionally. And that's, again, radically different from Uranus, who's just like⁠—it's a nervous system thing. It's your brain. It's like a different kind of changeability.

                        But as strong as Uranus is in your chart⁠—and it is very strong⁠—you got a lot of Cancer in you. To be honest, you got a lot of Libra in you. And so, when we are looking at your chart, it's clear to see that you are very affected by the people around you, and your embodiment of self is very much about you and it's also very much about you relationally.

Leon:               Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jessica:            And so it makes sense that, again, you're like, "I want this single thing that I can tell to the people that this is my gender." I can see why they're interwoven, in a way, for you. But I would encourage you, for the next couple years leading up to your Saturn Return, which⁠—your Saturn is at five degrees of Aries; it's not that far off⁠—but to give yourself permission to really just explore inside and not worry about your gender relationally so much.

                        Whatever shit you have to say or identify, do it, but don't let it distract you from the inner work. It'll make your Saturn Return a lot easier.

Leon:               Yeah. I had a feeling⁠—I'm not that knowledgeable about⁠—like super, super knowledgeable about astrology. But I had an intuitive feeling that the Saturn Return is going to be about my identity and my gender and how I relate that to other people or don't. You know what I mean?

Jessica:            Yeah.

Leon:               I just feel like that's going to come up because I feel like it's something⁠, as I said at the beginning, that I've been kind of like, "You'll get to that later. That's for older me." You know what I mean?

Jessica:            Mm-hmm.

Leon:               And it's like that kind of stuff, I think, always forces its way back up⁠—

Jessica:            Oh, it does.

Leon:               ⁠—with that kind of transit.

Jessica:            Oh, it does. It does. And it will be easier for you to handle that relational component if you first know yourself, if you first accept yourself.

Leon:               Of course.

Jessica:            That's the move. Okay. Good. Well, I'm really glad that we did this. This question is really just, as a triple Capricorn, a great one for me to also get to stew in with you, you know? I really love it.

Leon:               Thank you.